Angel Eyes Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 23 minutes ago, sifth said: The Mountain is still alive..........sort of. So there is still one person out there responsible for the death of his loved ones. But does Doran know that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 14 hours ago, maesternewton said: Oberyn poisoned Tywin, and I'm sure that was planned. It seems like the Martells want to undo Tywin's legacy, remove the Lannisters from power and see them turned into nothing. But that will most likely come with a cost. I don't buy this theory that Doran was late to his revenge, if anything his revenge is already in motion since he could be working with Qyburn. I think he was too late His inital rage filles revenge was clearly marrying his daughter to viserys and waging open war vs robert.Doran we later see is a rare lord who values the lives of innocents + viserys claim fades as he becomes the beggar king..... thus the plan becomes more surgical. Then clearly the plan was to posion tywin with oberyn (their good cop bad/crazy unpredicatable cop routine) and have him fight the mountain in a trial after hes accused of murder. Hes trained with a long posioned spear to specificaly maximise chances of a win (or draw should he lose) We know the dornish passes cant be forced so part of the plan is probably to have the dornish forces ready to humble the lannisters should they persue or punish the victorious oberyn after hes left the capital! Now the plan alters slightly as tyrion offers them more than they could hope for! They get mycella (useful hostage and or path to iron throne) some of the disputed dornish march lands and justice for their kin. They can still carry out their plan and now they have even more cover for oberyn to go to KL (why not we are allies now?) , a little bit of extra land, mycella and possibly can resolve the tywin-mountain issue minus a dangerous trial by combat .....or from their view tywins head would never be on the line on a trial but ser gegors could be and after that only tywin would remain to be posioned!!! They also are literaly asked to send their forces up to the dornish passes to keep the pro stannis marcher lords from marching to join him....so they get to enact part of their plan with 0 lannister suspicion. So the original plan to avenge themselves for their kin worked its just now the viper dead they want more...so the sand snakes set about moving to hurt the lannisters further to deal with their own grief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: But does Doran know that? I mean he will sooner or later. Everyone in the Red Keep pretty much knows who Robert Strong is, they're just keeping quite, for obvious reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodimas Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 54 minutes ago, sifth said: I mean he will sooner or later. Everyone in the Red Keep pretty much knows who Robert Strong is, they're just keeping quite, for obvious reasons. Unles they unmask him and find Rob Stark's head in the mountain's body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Aerodimas said: Unles they unmask him and find Rob Stark's head in the mountain's body. Why would Rob's head be on the Mountain's body and how did it get there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 17 minutes ago, sifth said: Why would Rob's head be on the Mountain's body and how did it get there? Theoretically, Robb's head would have been sent to King's Landing per a missive by Joffrey to Grand Maester Pycelle as mentioned in the Small Council meeting after the Red Wedding. Tywin didn't exactly do anything to countermand him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodimas Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 17 minutes ago, sifth said: Why would Rob's head be on the Mountain's body and how did it get there? Joffrey demanded his head from the twins and Cercei allegedly sent the mountains head to dorne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodimas Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Theoretically, Robb's head would have been sent to King's Landing per a missive by Joffrey to Grand Maester Pycelle as mentioned in the Small Council meeting after the Red Wedding. Tywin didn't exactly do anything to countermand him. Exactly, there are people thay go full frankestein monster and say that he also has Tywin's etes and Jamei's hand, but that is to much tinfoil for me. Edited June 4, 2023 by Aerodimas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Theoretically, Robb's head would have been sent to King's Landing per a missive by Joffrey to Grand Maester Pycelle as mentioned in the Small Council meeting after the Red Wedding. Tywin didn't exactly do anything to countermand him. That doesn't answer my second question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 3 hours ago, sifth said: That doesn't answer my second question. How the head got to King's Landing? Someone brought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: How the head got to King's Landing? Someone brought it. No, why would they put it on Gregor’s body? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, sifth said: No, why would they put it on Gregor’s body? A placeholder since the skull would be in Dorne. 10 hours ago, astarkchoice said: I think he was too late His inital rage filles revenge was clearly marrying his daughter to viserys and waging open war vs robert.Doran we later see is a rare lord who values the lives of innocents + viserys claim fades as he becomes the beggar king..... thus the plan becomes more surgical. I've never been sure how much Viserys factored into Doran's plans since Doran made no moves to help him during his exile even though Viserys was his intended son-in-law. It's as if Doran either wanted Arianne to be abused by Viserys or set up the betrothal for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: A placeholder since the skull would be in Dorne. So let me get this right. You think Qyburn cut off Gregor's head, somehow got hold of Robb's head and attacked Robb's head to Gregor's body, a head that was probably mostly rotten away by time it got to Kings Landing............because reasons? I mean if the guy needed a head, I'm sure he could have gotten one. Cersei killed quite a few people, during her time as regent. Edited June 5, 2023 by sifth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 On 6/1/2023 at 8:44 PM, Foreknown said: We all know that the Lannisters were responsible for the deaths of Elia and her children. And we know that Gregor killed Oberyn during their duel. But with Tywin, Amory Lorche, and Gregor dead who is left for them to seek vengeance against? Everyone responsible for what happened to Aegon, Rhaenys, Elia and Oberyn is dead. Why seek the downfall of House Lannister when most of the Lannister family members had nothing to do with what happened to the Martells. Oberyn sought revenge and an admission of guilt and it got him killed in the end. I think this whole quest for revenge is going to backfire and lead to the ruin of the Martells. Vengeance is often inflicted upon the innocent. An eye for an eye can mean two things. The more enlightened form is that the wrongdoer suffers a penalty equivalent to (but no worse than) their own wrongdoing. And the penalty is exacted upon the wrongdoer. The worse form is to exact the penalty on someone connected to the wrongdoer, however innocent, if the wrongdoer is dead or can’t be found. Killing Tommen in retaliation for what Tywin did is revolting. I expect that the same will be done to Myrcella, if she ceases to be of use to the Dornish. Forcing Cersei to watch, as he’d children were put to death, is something the Sand Snakes would take delight in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: I've never been sure how much Viserys factored into Doran's plans since Doran made no moves to help him during his exile even though Viserys was his intended son-in-law. It's as if Doran either wanted Arianne to be abused by Viserys or set up the betrothal for nothing. When they arranged the wedding they were too young for anyone to know viserys would become an abusive prick. As for the why he didnt help him its either 1) he concieved his surgical strike option with the viper very rraly on and just needed cover. 2) he had planned to but a few factors probably dissuaded him. I mean between 284 to 290 he goes from potential son in law to beggar. We know a few things may have affected his judgement and caused him to readjust plans -ironborn rebellion :shows strength of the new regime even at sea and worryingly ties the ironborn closer to it. -somewhere in between these years 285 and 290 oberyn cripples willas reopening old bad blood between themselves and former loyalist allies the tryellls! To maKe matters worse stannis marries a florent to ensure the regime has a potent threat to hang over highgarden and later a young loras is squire at stormsend apparently getting along with young renly very well.......all in all the reach being a pro targ war ally as they where before slowly but surely grows out of the question. -its said that robert handed stannis dragonstone not just as his heir til kids came along but to help purge the island and the surrounding ones of targ support. To bully them into line basicaly with his sheer force of will and weed out any potential traitors....thus Doran may have found friends in this former targ foothold cooling to his raven messages. -281 quentyn is born now hes sent to the yornwoods who are still angry with the viper killing their kin ina duel with suggested posion , although no set date for this its said he falls love at 1st sight on arrival with their daughter so must have been teens by then...until hes there to win them over for a few years the boneway blocked by yornwood isnt secure and could side with robert in a war, doran must wait til the yornwoods warm to his son. -dorans marriage is breaking down plus his wife blocks sending arianne to be fostered for time with tyroshs archon thus getting to know viserys. This is huge as not only would arianne have possibly forged strong links with the nobles of tyrosh gaining dorne a potential war ally but masively boosted viserys rep....he wouldnt have been as much of joke travelling around essos anymore drumming up support!! -viserys himself gets older and is rejected probably partly due to how he is , part of his rejection def may be the kid himself . The old sopranos episode where junior backs tony over richie " he just couldnt sell it" comes to mind after a while doran may be getting the idea the reception to backing viserys is lukewarm in essos!.....the free cities wont be helping basicaly. It could be the kid doesnt seem to have the 'right stuff' ......but it could also be a resugrance of trade with a longtime peaceful westeros where its king is lavishly spending (and its master of coin investing) and this all boosts essosi -westeros trade , the merchants have little reason to rock the boat and stop a good thing. Add in later possible varys+ilyrio using their strong essos connections to ensure powerful people dont back the targ kids properly (while also ensuring no one is allowed to kill them for robert) Edited June 5, 2023 by astarkchoice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 8 hours ago, sifth said: So let me get this right. You think Qyburn cut off Gregor's head, somehow got hold of Robb's head and attacked Robb's head to Gregor's body, a head that was probably mostly rotten away by time it got to Kings Landing............because reasons? I mean if the guy needed a head, I'm sure he could have gotten one. Cersei killed quite a few people, during her time as regent. Technically I don't believe this theory yet, but given how Martin is, I'm inclined to at least be open to things. This is simply a rundown of how it would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/1/2023 at 3:44 PM, Foreknown said: We all know that the Lannisters were responsible for the deaths of Elia and her children. And we know that Gregor killed Oberyn during their duel. But with Tywin, Amory Lorche, and Gregor dead who is left for them to seek vengeance against? Everyone responsible for what happened to Aegon, Rhaenys, Elia and Oberyn is dead. Why seek the downfall of House Lannister when most of the Lannister family members had nothing to do with what happened to the Martells. Oberyn sought revenge and an admission of guilt and it got him killed in the end. I think this whole quest for revenge is going to backfire and lead to the ruin of the Martells. It could lead to the ruin of the Martells and Aegon. The main target are the Lannisters but the other families who supported Robert's rebellion are also guilty. The Martells don't have the means to fight them all but Arianne is not good at political and military strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/1/2023 at 3:44 PM, Foreknown said: We all know that the Lannisters were responsible for the deaths of Elia and her children. And we know that Gregor killed Oberyn during their duel. But with Tywin, Amory Lorche, and Gregor dead who is left for them to seek vengeance against? Everyone responsible for what happened to Aegon, Rhaenys, Elia and Oberyn is dead. Why seek the downfall of House Lannister when most of the Lannister family members had nothing to do with what happened to the Martells. Oberyn sought revenge and an admission of guilt and it got him killed in the end. I think this whole quest for revenge is going to backfire and lead to the ruin of the Martells. Revenge will also backfire on Arya Stark. Revenge seems sweet but it hurts both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 The Martells are ridicolous, Varys did everything, brought Tyrion to Tywin chamber, made Tygett disappear during the King's Landing revolt, killed Kevan and Pycelle, meanwhile big brain Doran was Playing cyvasse, Quentyn ended up as barbecue, Oberyn crushed by the Mountain, Arianne did the master plan of crowning Myrcella XD Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 Children. That is the answer to the OP's question. Doran and the sand snakes are plotting the murder of children. Anyone with a soft heart, such as Arianne or Ellaria, is not fully in the know. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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