Where Whores Go (maybe)

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Fundament-ally, quite solid I'd say! When it comes to sleuthing deuces, you are number one!

Very interesting read. Made me think of an Outkast song: "Toilet Tisha." Is Tysha a take on "tissue," to be swept down with Tyrion's issue?

 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

9 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Fundament-ally, quite solid I'd say! When it comes to sleuthing deuces, you are number one!

The way you bend the English language, Phylum ... wow. That's quite a chain of puns. We should pass a motion to have that included in the Hall of Fame. As far as I'm concerned, at least: you're in. 

[Seams]

13 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

14 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe anagram wordplay: Tysha = A Shyt?

Might have guessed you would go down the anagram route!   

This one made me chuckle, but ... gosh, I think even George might have his limits when it comes to all this 'shit' wordplay - (turdplay? eww no). Hang on ... isn't Oppo an anagram of POOP? Dammit, you've got me doing it now ...

Even I sometimes hesitate. I feel very protective of Tysha, after all she suffered, so this does seem like insult to injury. The reason I don't discount it entirely is that I feel very strongly that a lot of the rape violence in ASOIAF links to GRRM's idea of the cycle of crops and the fertility of the earth. I suspect that the shit motif will lead to replenishing the soil as a good steward of the land might bring about by spreading manure. (There are other ingredients in healthy soil - compost and, notably, Catelyn's early reference to the 1000 years of humus in the Winterfell gods wood. I think GRRM also uses blood as a component of nourishing the soil, giving us the red grass field and Maester Luwin bleeding out on the roots of the weirwood. And we all know that water is necessary for crop growth, which is why there is a related huge motif around rain - the Rains of Castamere, Princess Rhaenys - and rivers.)

As the central figure of Tywin and Tyrion's, "Where do whores go?" line of thinking, Tysha as fertilized soil might be a logical metaphor. She is usually described as a crofter's daughter (meaning farmer's daughter), and no one else in the books is identified with that phrase. (Although maybe, just maybe, there is rhyming wordplay in crofter and Craster, which would suggest that Gilly is a parallel for Tysha. Perhaps strengthened by the knowledge that Craster's compound is built on shit.)

In my symbolism-obsessed and literary analysis-obsessed brain, Tysha and Lollys Stokeworth are parallel characters, initially because they are both gang raped  . Lollys comes from the family that controls the food supply for King's Landing and she is impregnated by half a hundred small folk - I think this might be a metaphor for farm workers planting seeds. So the Stokeworth lands as the breadbasket for the capital city is a logical fit for this symbolism. Lollys goes on to marry Bronn, who is a brown character and she has a baby named Tyrion (who is a metaphor for the continent of Westeros, I suspect). 

The idea of brown characters is another invention I came up with to explain a category of characters - Brown Ben Plumm, Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield, probably Nimble Dick Crabb who is described as very dirty, and probably Ser Hyle Hunt who has a brown sigil and seems to be the reborn Dick Crabb, becoming visible at the moment Dick dies. There are others that can be teased out based on brown in their sigils, dirtiness and names.

When dried out and nasty Ser Bennis (who hates water) finally leaves Standfast in The Sworn Sword, the rains return, the Chequy Water is reunited with the crops and cropland (and banner men named after fruits and beans) and Rohanne Webber is united in marriage with Eustace Osgrey. Balance is restored to the cycle of crops. Dunk remembers that Ser Bennis used to be a decent guy but he became a jerk at some point. I think he embodied land that had been dry and had not been nourished with manure or compost or blood as well as water and seeds. Ser Eustace poured wine in the berry patch, but the rain was needed to solve the larger problem.

The brown characters contrast with green characters - Jon Snow's friend Grenn, Ser Gregor Clegane, House Gardener, the green men, The Green Grace, Renly with his green armor and marriage to Margaery / Ser Loras. I suspect we are looking for a balance of green and brown and that the cycle of seasons will be balanced again if we can bring green and brown into harmony. 

I mention the green category in this shit discussion only because I think GRRM is setting up a cycle of brown and green - a growing season and a fallow season. The glass house at Winterfell was destroyed in the fire. Sansa, a maiden who represents spring, could not quite rebuild the glass house when Baelish was helping her with her snow castle in the courtyard at the Eyrie. Restoration of the panes in that glass house will tell us that the growing season can continue. 

Did I say panes? Wouldn't this tie into Paynes? Like Ser Ilyn and Podrick? I think so. 

Anyway. That is my big picture theory about the purpose of the shit motif in the larger scheme of things. I'll let you get back to the focus on shit. 

Except to say that I think "crofter's daughter" holds anagram clues for us. (Ha! Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.) I think the anagrams might contain the word "truth" and that Tyrion's mission to figure out where whores go is a search for The Truth. Truth a Sacred Forge? So he may find the missing sword Truth (formerly held by House Rogare and possibly House Martell).

[Seams]

Now that I'm thinking of it, I will also note that "hasty" is an anagram of Tysha. That could tie into Ser Bonifer Hasty - referred to by Jaime as Baelor Butthole. Since Ser Bonifer might be the secret biological father of Rhaegar, this could tie in again to the fertile soil theory of the shit motif.

[Sandy Clegg]

12 minutes ago, Seams said:

I'll let you get back to the focus on shit. 

Phew, you were in danger of raising the tone of this thread for a moment there, Seams  

Anyway, it's toilets that we're concerned with here, not just shit. A much nobler topic.

[Sandy Clegg]

21 minutes ago, Seams said:

In my symbolism-obsessed and literary analysis-obsessed brain, Tysha and Lollys Stokeworth are parallel characters, initially because they are both gang raped  . Lollys comes from the family that controls the food supply for King's Landing and she is impregnated by half a hundred small folk - I think this might be a metaphor for farm workers planting seeds.

Yes, I think there is a broader discussion to be had on the idea of women as metaphors for 'the land' and fertility symbols. See Dany's House of the Undying vision for another example of women symbolising the land, and by extension as a metaphor for the suffering of the realm. It's definitely a motif that recurs in ASOIAF, and is much more serious in tone than the scope of this thread might be able to deal with.

[TheBlackSwan]

22 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

This is probably where Tysha went after she was raped, back home.

Edited June 3, 2023 by TheBlackSwan

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I just lost my post to the forum abyss, it was too long to redo, so I'll just throw a couple of ideas in here.

@LongRider absolutely the cisterns and drains of Casterly Rock are a link. They are situated in the 'bowels of Casterly Rock' 

There are other castles described as having bowels, those being Storm's End and Riverrun. The ocean is also described as having bowels, which ties into @ravenous reader's green sea/greensee wordplay. Much discussion on corruption of the net and how the weirnet has a 'back door' etc.

Back door and corruption being apropos for this thread. 

7 hours ago, Seams said:

I suspect that the shit motif will lead to replenishing the soil as a good steward of the land might bring about by spreading manure.

Agreed. Rot and replenish, death and rebirth. 

Blood blooms growing from the rotting corpses war torn Westeros has left strewn throughout the land. 

Characters travelling through or situated in drains/sewers/bowels and coming out the other end better off or clean. Tyrion and Arya are the obvious examples.

@Sandy Clegg cool thread, really enjoyed your anal-ysis.  My friends Ravenous and @Pain killer Jane explored this idea a while back, they labelled it the cesspool, which always made me chuckle. I think a lot of the chat is on Twitter, but I recall some of the shit talk was on here. I'll try and locate said posts and drop a link if I can. To my knowledge they didn't catch the toilet link with the saying 'where do whores go?' Very cool reading someone else's ideas and catches that match that of a totally separate analysis, which I think started talking about shit for honour and shit related to gold and PKJ's idea of whitewashing etc. The cesspool was born and suddenly the toilet humour was everywhere. As you've found out yourself. 

Anyway, always love your stuff, very enjoyable reading. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Wizz-The-Smith

[LongRider]

55 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

They are situated in the 'bowels of Casterly Rock' 

Great catch Wizz.  

 

56 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Characters travelling through or situated in drains/sewers/bowels and coming out the other end better off or clean. Tyrion and Arya are the obvious examples.

Nice!

57 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

but I recall some of the shit talk was on here.

Ha ha plenty of shit talk here, of all types.   

Good post!  Thanks Wizz. 

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

cool thread, really enjoyed your anal-ysis.  

Ok, that's a red card 

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I think a lot of the chat is on Twitter, but I recall some of the shit talk was on here. I'll try and locate said posts and drop a link if I can.

please do! I think I follow Ravenous, but Twitter isn't very search-friendly tbh

[Wizz-The-Smith]

55 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Ha ha plenty of shit talk here, of all types.   

Good post!  Thanks Wizz. 

Hahahaa! Indeed. 

And thanks. 

53 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Ok, that's a red card 

Fair.  

Plenty more where that came from though. So much shit to pass... I mean parse.

I'll get my coat. 

14 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

please do! I think I follow Ravenous, but Twitter isn't very search-friendly tbh

Ravenous is definitely the one for cesspool chat. Hopefully they see the notification and pop in. I shall try and find the best links in the meantime. 

[Seams]

My guess for Tysha's location is Mole's Town, although there might be a Mole's Town parallel in Essos where she will go. 

Mole's Town could fit with your theory because of the underground tunnels, similar to a sewer network. 

The sewer / sewer parallel might offer another clue about Tysha, if you are right about the toilet connection. The people who teach highborn girls to sew are Septas. Maybe Tysha will become a Septa or a Silent Sister.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 6/1/2023 at 11:53 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Now, this post is not actually concerned with identifying any of the possible locations of Tysha (nor of any particular ‘whore’ that George may have had in mind when he made that confirmation). Whatever George intends for the ‘where do whores go?’ revelation and how it ties in to Tyrion’s story, I’m sure it will be compelling.

We already know it, but what would be interesting about this is how Tyrion will end up in Braavos. Perhaps as an ambassador by Dany? Also how Arya will interact with him.

 

On 6/1/2023 at 11:53 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Dressed in white, as Jon is in black. Ghost by her side, as if they belong together. He male, she female. And her name: a reversal of a ‘John’ word: Lav / Val. In every aspect, she is a mirror image of Jon here. George is not presenting Val as a possible love interest for Jon. Rather, through her, he is presenting us with a vision of what Jon will soon become. All in white, blue-eyed. But with Ghost still at his side at least. And Jon finds it all such a lovely sight …

 

A good read overall and a great catch! But I wouldn't be so sure on the love interest part.

 

 

As for Black/White, apart from bride and groom, I had an idea that there once was, or likely still is an order of white sisters, who, TAKE HUSBANDS and MOTHER CHILDREN as opposed to the order of black brothers who shall take no wives and father no children, though their initial oaths seemingly didn't prevent any such things(Sam reciting only who he is, not what he won't do). Unfortunately I couldn't find much material on that but below may have some things on it, can't remember. 

Starks, not the ancient Starks but the modern ones descended from Lyarra may even be descendants of the Night's King's Corpse Queen: If there were two orders, black brothers and white sisters and "membership" is passed down to descendants, who better for the original Lady Commander of the order of the white sisters?

Edit: Aaand with all these came a new theory to my mind. A somewhat poor one, but here it goes:

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Evolett]

Time doesn't permit me to make much of a contribution to topics in the forum at the moment, unfortunately, but I just thought I'd make a small addition to the "toilet" motif here. 

King's Landing is literally situated on the banks of a symbolic and probably also veritable toilet: The Blackwater. From Wikipedia:

Quote

Blackwater in a sanitation context denotes wastewater from toilets which likely contains pathogens that may spread by the fecal–oral route. Blackwater can contain feces, urine, water and toilet paper from flush toilets. Blackwater is distinguished from greywater, which comes from sinks, baths, washing machines, and other kitchen appliances apart from toilets. Greywater results from washing food, clothing, dishes, as well as from showering or bathing.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Blackwater_(waste)

 

Note that we have the Blackwater River as well as Greywater Watch. I've had this info for a while and though I've had unpleasant visions of the contents of Tywin's privy tumbling down into the Blackwater to enrich its contents, my otherwise fertile imagination hasn't quite figured out the possible meaning of all this. 

Speaking of fertile... @Seams suggested a while ago that Lysa, who was married off also because of her fertility, possibly symbolizes fertilizer (fertile Lysa, love it). When she is "flushed" out the Moon Door, her poor broken body and blood does fertilize the Vale below. Perhaps she can be viewed as a sacrifice to that end.  And perhaps this mode of execution is a means to make appropriate sacrifices to the gods that be. We further came to the conlusion that Dany flushed Jorah down the loo when she sent him into the drains to take Meereen from within. 

 

On 6/3/2023 at 3:02 PM, Seams said:

I feel very strongly that a lot of the rape violence in ASOIAF links to GRRM's idea of the cycle of crops and the fertility of the earth. I suspect that the shit motif will lead to replenishing the soil as a good steward of the land might bring about by spreading manure. (There are other ingredients in healthy soil - compost and, notably, Catelyn's early reference to the 1000 years of humus in the Winterfell gods wood. I think GRRM also uses blood as a component of nourishing the soil, giving us the red grass field and Maester Luwin bleeding out on the roots of the weirwood. And we all know that water is necessary for crop growth, which is why there is a related huge motif around rain - the Rains of Castamere, Princess Rhaenys - and rivers.)

 

On 6/3/2023 at 3:02 PM, Seams said:

In my symbolism-obsessed and literary analysis-obsessed brain, Tysha and Lollys Stokeworth are parallel characters, initially because they are both gang raped  

Fully agree with your post. In fact, I suspect all that rape represents a forced and unnatural fertilizing of the land and is a symbolic factor contributing to the unnatural seasonal cycle. The idea here is that the "mother goddess," represented by the "whore" or individual woman who is gang raped, is subjected to permanent seeding and growth cycles with no respite. Growth cannot be sustained indefinitely due to soil depletion so perhaps this is where the "Johns" and shit-associated characters come into play. Symbols for providers of manure perhaps? Maybe far-fetched. However, Tywin is said to "shit gold." Now, gold is a symbol of wealth and prosperity.  Tywin embodies wealth and prosperity and so indeed does a plentiful food supply and good harvest.  If gold is connected  to shit/manure/fertilizer, what would the union between the golden rose of Highgarden and golden lion of Lannister have yielded?
Consider this from the Queen of Thorns:

Quote

“Yes, all the Lannisters are lions, and when a Tyrell breaks wind it smells just like a rose,” the old woman snapped.

In this context, there may be more to Jon Arryn and fertiLysa's symbolic relationship than immediately meets the eye. If both represent a fertilizing agent, then it's no surprise Lysa had problems bearing children.

So Craster? Craster's Keep is a midden heap. Out of this midden heap grows a Gillyflower. If I recall correctly, Craster wears a heavy gold ring on his wrist. Interestingly, Gilly is named Goldie in the German version of the story. I checked to see if gillyflowers are gold in colour but the term refers to a group of different flowers varying in color. It occured to me that Gilly could also be a hidden reference to "gild / gilded," bringing us round to the gold reference in English as well. That would be another shit/gold pair. 

A last observation on Tyrion: he not only cleaned up the drains / sewers of Casterly Rock, having sewn his little motley outfit himself on the Shy Maid, he is a "sewer" himself. He'd have been pretty useful as "fertilizer" flushed down the Moon Door!

@Sandy Clegg I'm yet to read part II - looking forward to it

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Evolett

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

Growth cannot be sustained indefinitely due to soil depletion so perhaps this is where the "Johns" and shit-associated characters come into play. Symbols for providers of manure perhaps?

Sometime after the Battle of the Blackwater, Bronn was knighted as Ser Bronn of the Blackwater and took Lollys as his wife.  When her baby is born, Bronn names him Tyrion.  Tyrion of the sewers has the offspring of a gang rape named after him; the name given to the babe by the Knight of Shit Water.     Beautifull!  

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by LongRider

[Sandy Clegg]

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

 I'm yet to read part II - looking forward to it

Ha it gets more bonkers - be warned. Weird that you mentioned the blackwater connection. I included it in part 2 but deleted it as it didn’t fit anywhere logically in that post. Westeros is definitely becoming a toilet of sorts. 

[Seams]

On 6/7/2023 at 7:48 PM, Evolett said:

The idea here is that the "mother goddess," represented by the "whore" or individual woman who is gang raped, is subjected to permanent seeding and growth cycles with no respite. Growth cannot be sustained indefinitely due to soil depletion so perhaps this is where the "Johns" and shit-associated characters come into play. Symbols for providers of manure perhaps? Maybe far-fetched.

Not far-fetched. My brain just melted when I read your post. How could this connection have eluded me so long?

It took a long time to piece together the wolf-flow-fowl wordplay around the Starks, telling us that each Stark child would have a wolf, the river (flow) heritage from their Tully side (flow might also refer to blood flow and to rain, which is a complex symbol in ASOIAF) and a "fowl" aspect - Arya as Squab, Sansa as The Hound's "Little bird," Bran's friendship with crows, Jon Snow as a Night's Watch crow, etc. 

But your elegant point makes it clear that there is probably a fourth bit of wordplay that come from the union of House Stark and House Tully: fallow. The land must be fallow in order to become or remain fertile. 

And being fallow ties in with falling - the thing that happens to Lysa, Bran, Ashara Dayne. Leaves fall from Weirwood trees and become humus in the Winterfell gods wood. And poop falls into privy shafts and befouls the river, below. 

Quote

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard.

(AGoT, Jon II)

When Catelyn tells Jon Snow, "It should have been you," she is saying that he should have been the one to fall from the Old Keep and suffer the near-death injury. Both Jon Snow (manure) and Catelyn (water) are holding Bran's (seed? soil?) hand at this point. Both are needed for Bran's rebirth. 

Maybe when Winter returns to Westeros (signaled by a white fowl), the falling of snow flakes brings about the necessary fallow time needed to rejuvenate the soil. Catelyn will get her wish when snow falls.

Ash is something that also can be used to fertilize soil. This would help to explain the group of names that include an "ash" syllable: Ashara, Asha, Tysha, Shae, Shagga. 

Here's an interesting fertility moment that I stumbled on when I was looking for that moment that Catelyn and Jon Snow shared at Bran's bedside:

Quote

"We do."

"Well, you can't!" Lord Walder announced crisply. "Not unless I allow it, and why should I? The Tullys and the Starks have never been friends of mine." He pushed himself back in his chair and crossed his arms, smirking, waiting for her answer.

The rest was only haggling.

Walder Frey uses the same words Catelyn used on Jon Snow. He is supposedly negotiating for Robb Stark to marry one of his daughters or granddaughters, but he is using the words that signal someone is going to fall. Foreshadowing for Catelyn's fall into the river, I'm thinking. It's appropriate that the fecund Lord Frey is part of our symbolic fertility cycle.

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/3/2023 at 5:25 PM, Seams said:

My guess for Tysha's location is Mole's Town, although there might be a Mole's Town parallel in Essos where she will go. 

Mole's Town could fit with your theory because of the underground tunnels, similar to a sewer network. 

The sewer / sewer parallel might offer another clue about Tysha, if you are right about the toilet connection. The people who teach highborn girls to sew are Septas. Maybe Tysha will become a Septa or a Silent Sister.

Yea, on two occasions the entrance to the Mole’s Town brothel is likened to a privy:

Quote

Mole’s Town was bigger than it seemed, but three quarters of it was under the ground, in deep warm cellars connected by a maze of tunnels. Even the whorehouse was down there, nothing on the surface but a wooden shack no bigger than a privy, with a red lantern hung over the door.

Quote

He almost rode through Mole’s Town, so feverish that he did not know where he was. Most of the village was hidden underground, only a handful of small hovels to be seen by the light of the waning moon. The brothel was a shed no bigger than a privy, its red lantern creaking in the wind, a bloodshot eye peering through the blackness.

And we don’t meet many denizens of Mole Town, but two of the ones that we do meet have interesting parallels to the Lannisters.  The first is Hareth:

Quote

Others waited with him; Satin, Mully, Spare Boot, Kegs, big blond Hareth with his buck teeth. Everyone called him Horse. He had been a stablehand in Mole’s Town, one of the few moles who had stayed at Castle Black. The rest had run back to their fields and hovels, or their beds in the underground brothel. Horse wanted to take the black, though, the great buck-toothed fool.

The blonde part is interesting.  Now being big and strapping may disqualify him from being Tyrion’s offspring, but who knows how big Tyrion would have been if he had not suffered from dwarfism.

But the more interesting part of Hareth is his name.  Perhaps a play on Harith, a common Arabic name meaning

Quote

Harith is an indirect Quranic name for boys that means “cultivator”, “farmer” (literally “one who plows”), it also means “lion”.  Harith is an ancient Arabic name and can be found in the names of many Sahaba (companions of the Prophet ﷺ), usually in the names of their fathers, such as Anas bin al-Harith, Ibrahim bin al-Harith. It is derived from the H6-R-TH root which is used in many places in the Quran.

And we have a parallel for a lion plowman when Lancel Lannister takes over House Darry.

The other member is the whore, Zei.  We’re not told much about her, only that she is very handy with the crossbow.  Which is told to us in the same book where Tyrion uses a crossbow to kill his father.

Not sure about her name.  In Mandarin it means thief.  But it is interesting how close it is to Shae.

[Evolett]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:53 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

The phrase “where girls may go” as part of the clue is meant to conjure up the word LADIES, which is of course a toilet where “girls” might “go” in both senses of the word. All very euphemistic, and perfect for designing clues (and by implication riddles).

This brings us back to our riddle-but-not-really-a-riddle: “Wherever whores go”. We should assume that the answer will rely on wordplay as much the question, in order to be a satisfying one. So let’s forget about ‘go’ as in ‘travelling’. We need to lower ourselves to the gutter. ’Ladies’ again might spring to mind, except it hardly fits the theme of ‘whores’ - full apologies to all sex workers who are just out there making a living, naturally. So, not ‘ladies’ in this case.

I keep coming back to this post, examining it from different points of view and after considering possible clues hidden within the "whore - john" connection, have gravitated to "whores and ladies." I think a case can be made for this too. 

When Tyrion asks where whores go, he really is seeking an answer to Tysha's whereabouts. Where did she go after her ordeal? Now, if we stick to the underlying euphemism - "needing to go," as in going to the toilet, the Westerosi version, is the "privy."  It's also used as an adjective, stemming from Latin "privatus" meaning private. Yes, when we need “to go” we prefer a bit of privacy. This got me thinking. I put aside the “whores” and focussed on Tysha. Could she have sought privacy in one way or another and if so, when and how?

After considering and discarding several options, one remaining thought makes the most sense to me: if she needed a form of “privacy,” she may have needed it most during the horrific experience inflicted upon her. Sheer ongoing physical and mental torture, topped off by her husband, the man she loved. Where did she “go” during the gangrape and what could this be telling us? Let’s look at a couple of examples of where people “go” when under psychological stress.

This is how Jamie deals with witnessing the horror of Rickard Stark’s roasting by Aerys’ command:

Quote

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei.

On a psychological level, to escape the unbearable suffering taking place before his eyes, he opens a door to a private room in his mind and stays there imagining Cersei.

Let’s also recall Hodor's mechanism of coping when his body is taken over by Bran:

 

Quote

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him.

To preserve what remains of his sanity, Hodor goes deep inside himself. I imagine his soul stashed away in a very private place within himself, the better to escape the foreign intrusion upon his mind and body.

Of note is that though Tysha’s and Hodor’s experiences differ, they share one prominent commonality: the act of forced penetration. Keep that in mind for later.

 

So, did Tysha try to achieve a level of “privacy” where no one could touch her during her own personal nightmare? We may never know, but this is where the LADIES enters the scene. Since Tyrion’s question is intimately tied to Tysha, be reminded that several other women linked to him have suffered abuse, sexual abuse in most cases. There is Lollys, gangraped, now married to Bron, her child named after him. Tywin suggests Lollys as a wife when Tyrion initially protests against marrying Sansa. According to Shae, her father sexually abused her. And then there is Sansa, now Tyrion’s wife, saved from a gang rape by the Hound at the same time Lollys was being raped during the King’s Landing riots.

 

Now, imagine the Hound had not looked for Sansa, or had arrived too late. Imagine Sansa had shared Lollys’ and Tysha’s fate. Imagine she had still had her direwolf LADY. Where would Sansa have “gone” to escape the horror of the ordeal? Which “privy” would she have sought out? The “ladies” / Lady?
I personally think the trauma would have catapulted her soul right into her direwolf. From Bran’s chapters, we know when the souls leaves its “house,” the body left behind is practically lifeless and unresponsive. This suggests the human body may not feel pain. Due to the mingling of man and wolf, the soul may be shielded from the emotional trauma of a terrifying situation. The familiar animal becomes a “private place” or “privy” for its bonded human.

 

Having reached this intermediate conclusion, my next question was: is there any further evidence for this? I think there is. On one level, I think GRRM smuggled a hint to this scenario in the seemingly inconsequential scene involving Sansa trying to coax a frightened Lollys across a drawbridge. A drawbridge can be raised and lowered to allow a crossing or not, as required. Try as she might, Sansa could not convince Lollys to cross it. The bridge represents the crossing of the soul. Symbolically, because of her skinchanger blood, Sansa would be able to lower this “drawbridge” and cross to her direwolf, but Lollys cannot.

 

There is however more relevant suggestive evidence available. The Keyword here is the Hound. Sansa was saved by Sandor the Hound. One other person closely associated with hounds is Ramsay. Ramsay’s hounds, his “girls” are all female, and they are essential to one of his favourite pursuits – hunting young women for sport. When caught, the women are raped and killed. Those that give him good sport get to “come back” as hounds.

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Ben Bones, who liked the dogs better than their master, had told Reek they were all named after peasant girls Ramsay had hunted, raped, and killed back when he’d still been a bastard, running with the first Reek. “The ones who give him good sport, anywise. The ones who weep and beg and won’t run don’t get to come back as bitches.” ADWD, Reek III

Like Tysha, also a peasant girl, Ramsay’s victims are raped, probably gang raped and in this case killed. On a symbolic level, the example of Ramsay’s girls could be telling us what I’ve suggested above. Tortured and abused women with the gift of skinchanging leave their bodies, inhabiting their familiar animals to escape the physical and mental terror. They give “good sport,” appearing stoic when they go to their “privy” place. They come back as hounds, literally saved by the Hounds.

Tysha going to a “privy place” or secret place where she finds safety also fits with Molestown as her actual location (the laterine references, it’s a brothel), as suggested in previous posts.

 

Tied to all this is Theon’s suffering at the hand of Ramsay. Like the peasant girls, Theon is “turned into a dog.” He lives and sleeps amongst the “girls,” fights them over food. He’s named Reek. He stinks to high heaven. He’s allowed no baths or change of clothes. While in the dungeons, he’s covered in his own filth. He brings us back to the “JOHN.” Before his ordeal began, like the classic “john - client” he enjoyed the local sex-workers and women in general. Under Ramsay, he becomes a “john – privy,” reeks and is covered in filth. Sansa was saved by the Hound. The girls, the hounds, are a bit of a refuge for Theon:

 

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There would be no hot baths for Reek. He would roll in shit again, forbidden to wash. The clothes he wore would turn to rags, foul and stinking, and he would be made to wear them till they rotted. The best he could hope for was to be returned to the kennels with Ramsay’s girls for company.

 

The main gist of this post centres around the idea that the question “where do whores go?” may contain hidden references to skinchanging as a refuge, with the “privy,” “ladies” or "john" being that private place of refuge. In another thread, we discussed the possibility of Theon being skinchanged by Bran. If Theon is the “john” here, might he end up as the place of refuge for another skinchanger? Jon perhaps? Or might Tywin meeting his end while occupying the privy suggest skinchanging is does not always offer a safe refuge (I'm also thinking of Thistle here. She or whatever controls her saw Varamyr's soul within his second life after she rose from death)?  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Evolett