Maybe Rhaena Targaryen had another child. Where did they go?

[Hippocras]

Rhaena, eldest child of Aenys, wife of Aegon the uncrowned had two duaghters that we know of, and no grandchildren. However after they were born in the year 42, she went with Aegon so he could claim a dragon and she could get back hers, which was a dangerous task. But then not long after she did NOT accompany him to battle where her and her dragon might have been somewhat helpful. A strange and out-of-character choice.

One reason might be another pregnancy/birth. Not long after that she sent her daughters away to safety. Their existence was, however, widely known. But what if there was another child, one whose birth was kept secret and who was hidden more successfully? Born in 43, at Pinkmaiden, any such child would have been kept secret first to protect them from Maegor (same as their sisters), and then later because they would have been too young to stabilize the Realm and so could not be allowed to be a challenge for Jaehaerys's reign. Rhaena may not have even known where the baby went, same as with her other children.

If not another child with Aegon, it is also somewhat possible that she had a successful but hidden pregnancy with Maegor. She stole Blackfyre and took off to Storm's End before Tyanna of the Tower had the chance to sabotage any pregnancy. Once again some very strong reasons to keep such a child secret throughout Jaehaerys's reign. Any child of Rhaena's fathered by Maegor would have been born in  48., possibly at Driftmark or Storm's End though other options exist. It is unclear where Rhaena was during this time, after she fled Maegor but before and shortly after his death.

Finally, after some free-spirited times indulging her preference for women, tragedy struck and it led to her taking up residence at Harrenhal in 56.  She was 33 years old. She rejected the idea of marrying again, and clearly preferred women , nevertheless a child born to her during her time at Harrenhal is not impossible. She rarely saw anyone so noone would know, and she was of childbearing age still for much of her time there.


So what do you think? Did she have any grandchildren that we do not know about? After all, her husband Aegon was almost certainly the father of Larissa Velaryon's "Tarth" daughter. Is it impossible that Rhaena's line continued as well?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Ok, wow. Well I will try to clarify why this is actually interesting then:

 

Bloodlines matter in this epic. Targs would not marry brothers and sisters or cousins if this were not so. And if bloodlines of Targs matter (not just family names) then tracking them to the extend that is possible also matters. Aegon and Rhaena were supposed to be the next rulers of Westeros after Aenys, not Maegor, and not their brother Jaehaerys. The throne keeps going to those who were not supposed to have it initially. However a large number of threads related to various bastards and women suggest the bloodline may still be working towards what it was supposed to be by very complicated and often concealed routes. Jon is just one example of a pattern, he is not an exception.

[Hippocras]

Ok well,  I am going to say she probably did. I am also going to say that it was not with Aegon. The juiciest possible version of this is that she had Maegor's only legitimate child, possible only because Tyanna never knew she was pregnant, but that noone wanted Maegor's line to threaten Jaehaerys including Rhaena. She was by then hanging out with Jaehaerys and his allies, so keeping it a secret was not a big issue. I am going to speculate that this child was passed off as a Velaryon, or other associated Crownlands family and that they may have been an ancestor of queen Daenaera.

...or of Marilda of Hull.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

The idea that Rhaena could have been pregnant again by Aegon, explaining why she unwilling or unable to participate in the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. If it was a son she would take even more precautions to hide him after Aegon's death than she did with Aerea and Rhaella.

Her being pregnant by Maegor makes no sense as was with him only for a couple of months and then moved to Storm's End and from there back to KL with her mother and siblings ... then down to Oldtown for the coronation and only then back to Fair Isle. No chance at all to hide a pregnancy.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Even her daughters were good as being never born. Real Aerea became septa instead of making good match. Rhalla died by wyrm. 

Targ descendants were as usual trimmed for stupid reasons. At least Aerea shouldnt have her life wasted as septa. Could have had her married to Hightowers. Dragon less Princess was no threat to precious Jae and "Good" Alysanne but not

 

[Hippocras]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Rhaena could have been pregnant again by Aegon, explaining why she unwilling or unable to participate in the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. If it was a son she would take even more precautions to hide him after Aegon's death than she did with Aerea and Rhaella.

Her being pregnant by Maegor makes no sense as was with him only for a couple of months and then moved to Storm's End and from there back to KL with her mother and siblings ... then down to Oldtown for the coronation and only then back to Fair Isle. No chance at all to hide a pregnancy.

I agree another child with Aegon (if any) is the most likely. It is just the least interesting. I have trouble believing in the end that Visenya's line came to nothing is what it comes down to. Visenya and Maegor were larger than life characters. Yet no impact on bloodlines? Difficult to believe.

She was not with Maegor long, but a few months is plenty enough time to get pregnant,  including the night she stole Blackfyre, and then it specifically says that when Jaehaerys won the throne she kept her distance from the court. Yes, she went to Oldtown for the coronation but there was time enough for a concealed pregnancy before departure if she was avoiding court, and we don't actually know that she was even in KL before leaving for Oldtown. We only know she was avoiding court, whatever or wherever that means. So it is not impossible.

But if she had a child with Aegon, which I agree is more likely BTW, where did that child go? How and when and where might they have fed into known bloodlines? The child would have been born at Pinkmaiden, so tracking him or her starts there.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

I agree another child with Aegon (if any) is the most likely. It is just the least interesting. I have trouble believing in the end that Visenya's line came to nothing is what it comes down to. Visenya and Maegor were larger than life characters. Yet no impact on bloodlines? Difficult to believe.

She was not with Maegor long, but a few months is plenty enough time to get pregnant,  including the night she stole Blackfyre, and then it specifically says that when Jaehaerys won the throne she kept her distance from the court. Yes, she went to Oldtown for the coronation but there was time enough for a concealed pregnancy before departure if she was avoiding court, and we don't actually know that she was even in KL before leaving for Oldtown. We only know she was avoiding court, whatever or wherever that means. So it is not impossible.

She avoided court after the coronation, not before. And that took place late in 48 AC, after the Septon Moon stuff was dealt with. No chance for a pregnancy before.

Also, Maegor's seed was bad. He would have fucked Rhaena, of course ... but to no avail, obviously. Just as Androw never got her pregnant, either ... if he was allowed to try.

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

But if she had a child with Aegon, which I agree is more likely BTW, where did that child go? How and when and where might they have fed into known bloodlines? The child would have been born at Pinkmaiden, so tracking him or her starts there.

If a pregnancy was the reason she stayed behind, she could easily have had a stillbirth or a miscarriage (say as a result of Aegon's death). If she had a living child it could have been born later, on Fair Isle, as people would have noticed if she was highly pregnant when she retook Dreamfyre and then helped Aegon to rally his forces.

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She avoided court after the coronation, not before. And that took place late in 48 AC, after the Septon Moon stuff was dealt with. No chance for a pregnancy before.

From the wiki:

"Afterwards, discussion arose as to who had the better claim to the Iron Throne. There were some who suggested that Rhaena's claim, as the firstborn child of King Aenys I Targaryen and Queen Alyssa Velaryon, was the strongest. Her gender argued against her, however, and Rhaena herself had come to loathe King's Landing and its court. "

That was before the coronation.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

From the wiki:

"Afterwards, discussion arose as to who had the better claim to the Iron Throne. There were some who suggested that Rhaena's claim, as the firstborn child of King Aenys I Targaryen and Queen Alyssa Velaryon, was the strongest. Her gender argued against her, however, and Rhaena herself had come to loathe King's Landing and its court. "

That was before the coronation.

Doesn't matter. She resented court life since Maegor's days ... but she was still there. Until she returned to Fair Isle after the coronation.

[Hippocras]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Doesn't matter. She resented court life since Maegor's days ... but she was still there. Until she returned to Fair Isle after the coronation.

I don't feel like it specifically says that anywhere. She helped her brother win it, but hated the place. She had no particular reason to stay, no role, and if pregnant then a very significant reason to leave. In your mind the timeline is clear, and that is fine, but I see room there for a possible pregnancy, concealed for very signifiant reasons. I mean, if anyone knew then the war would have started all over again. Rhaena fled KL with Blackfyre at the beginning of 48. Returned with Jaehaerys no more than 2 months after that as Maegor's downfall was fast. Then the corronation was at the end of the year, with no explanation of Rhaena's specific activities during that time. So absolutely the only thing we know for certain is that she hated KL.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I don't feel like it specifically say that anywhere. She helped her brother win it, but hated the place. She had no particular reason to stay, no role, and if pregnant then a very significant reason to leave. In your mind the timeline is clear, and that is fine, but I see room there for a possible pregnancy, concealed for very signifiant reasons. I mean, if anyone knew then the war would have started all over again. Rhaena fled KL with Blackfyre at the beginning of 48. Returned with Jaehaerys no more than 2 months after that and Maegor's downfall was fast. Then the corronation was at the end of the year, with no explanation of Rhaena's specific activities during that time. So absolutely the only thing we know for certain is that she hated KL.

Go back and reread the actual sections of the book. Rhaena is there in KL with Jaehaerys and Alysanne and offers advice to her brother in the time before the coronation. First she lands there with her siblings when Jaehaerys takes the throne, then she tells him that his clemency when sitting on the throne in that first public display is too much - being the only one to do so. She is also still explicitly there when the court considers how to deal with Moon as Jaehaerys is said to have his own dragon as well as those of his two sisters. This is quite noteworthy since Jaehaerys explicitly no longer controls Dreamfyre after his sister left for Fair Isle, where she becomes 'the Queen in the West', a potential rival pretender for the throne.

Also, I daresay, a poor take on your part to imagine or invent or wish for an absence when there is no indication for it. Especially since when she finally leaves and flies to Fair Isle the narrator tells us.

[Hippocras]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Go back and reread the actual sections of the book. Rhaena is there in KL with Jaehaerys and Alysanne and offers advice to her brother in the time before the coronation. First she lands there with her siblings when Jaehaerys takes the throne, then she tells him that his clemency when sitting on the throne in that first public display is too much - being the only one to do so. She is also still explicitly there when the court considers how to deal with Moon as Jaehaerys is said to have his own dragon as well as those of his two sisters. This is quite noteworthy since Jaehaerys explicitly no longer controls Dreamfyre after his sister left for Fair Isle, where she becomes 'the Queen in the West', a potential rival pretender for the throne.

Also, I daresay, a poor take on your part to imagine or invent or wish for an absence when there is no indication for it. Especially since when she finally leaves and flies to Fair Isle the narrator tells us.

Ok, well, a Maegor and Rhaena child was always more interesting than likely. If we drop that but consider that Maegor's (and by extension Visenya's) line might still have continued, then we rely on his rumoured man-at-arms bastard. We don't know much about him, and unclear if this was supposedly a bastard at Dragonstone, or a child he actually did father on his wedding night in Oldtown, though not with his bride Ceryse. There is some ambiguity surrounding his supposed infertility anyway, since many of his brides were in fact pregnant. Tyanna admitted to sabotaging the pregnancies, which might or might not be true but even if true it was useful to the maesters and septons to claim Maegor was infertile in order to prevent further challenges to the throne by cause of descent from Maegor.

Meanwhile for Rhaena, we return to a possible third child with Aegon born at Pinkmaiden, or, even longer shot, a child born in her late 30's at Harrenhal. In both cases, the question then is, where might they have gone? What leads do the names of Rhaena's favorites over the years give us? Is there some kind of hint embedded in the fact that Rhaena shares a name with Daemon's daughter, and that Rhaena the Second's dragon did not hatch until she was in the Vale?

Edited June 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Ok, well, a Maegor and Rhaena child was always more interesting than likely. If we drop that but consider that Maegor's (and by extension Visenya's) line might still have continued, then we rely on his rumoured man-at-arms bastard. We don't know much about him, and unclear if this was supposedly a bastard at Dragonstone, or a child he actually did father on his wedding night in Oldtown, though not with his bride Ceryse. There is some ambiguity surrounding his supposed infertility anyway, since many of his brides were in fact pregnant. Tyanna admitted to sabotaging the pregnancies, which might or might not be true but even if true it was useful to the maesters and septons to claim Maegor was infertile in order to prevent further challenges to the throne by cause of descent from Maegor.

Thing is, if Maegor had had any reasons to believe he had a bastard child he would have legitimized the boy or girl at once, ensuring he had an heir of sorts in absence of a trueborn child. The fact that he named Aerea his heir until such a time he had a son (not a child, a son) indicates he clearly had no reason to believe he had ever fathered a living child on anyone.

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Meanwhile for Rhaena, we return to a possible third child with Aegon born at Pinkmaiden, or, even longer shot, a child born in her late 30's at Harrenhal. In both cases, the question then is, where might they have gone? What leads do the names of Rhaena's favorites over the years give us? Is there some kind of hint embedded in the fact that Rhaena shares a name with Daemon's daughter, and that Rhaena the Second's dragon did not hatch until she was in the Vale?

The notion that Rhaena could have had a child at Harrenhal is more likely on the outside. In fact, I put forth the idea that Alys Rivers could have been her child by Maegor Towers if she was as old as she is supposed to be in Mushroom's version of the story. They were living pretty much by themselves without many interactions with the outside world, so she could have concealed a pregnancy easily enough. Although very unlikely there would have been one such, considering Rhaena's sexual preferences and the fact that she was way beyond the stage in her life where men could push her into a heterosexual relationship.

Another idea for Alys Rivers could be that she was one of the Strong bastards fathered by Ser Lucamore who were fostered with Lord Bywin Strong.

More secret children one can imagine for the Targaryens we don't know the end of - like Septa Rhaella and Archmaester Vaegon. The latter doesn't seem to have a big interest in sex or relationships as a youth ... but he could have met somebody in Oldtown who eventually cracked his shell - say, a woman of equal interests and personality. And the latter is a septa when we last hear about her ... but that doesn't mean she died a septa nor that she couldn't have given birth to bastards.

[Hippocras]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thing is, if Maegor had had any reasons to believe he had a bastard child he would have legitimized the boy or girl at once, ensuring he had an heir of sorts in absence of a trueborn child. The fact that he named Aerea his heir until such a time he had a son (not a child, a son) indicates he clearly had no reason to believe he had ever fathered a living child on anyone.

I think this is a fair point, but with some wiggle room. Maegor thought until quite late in the game that he could and would father a legitimate child. Why did he think that? Could be just pride and the whole male ego issue around infertility. But it could also be that he knew he had a bastard. In this case he did not legitimize them because they were too lowborn and would never be accepted, and/or because they were female and so even less likely to be convincing to the lords of Westeros than Aerea. He wanted a son. A lowborn bastard daughter would have been worth nothing to him except evidence that he could in fact father children.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The notion that Rhaena could have had a child at Harrenhal is more likely on the outside. In fact, I put forth the idea that Alys Rivers could have been her child by Maegor Towers if she was as old as she is supposed to be in Mushroom's version of the story. They were living pretty much by themselves without many interactions with the outside world, so she could have concealed a pregnancy easily enough. Although very unlikely there would have been one such, considering Rhaena's sexual preferences and the fact that she was way beyond the stage in her life where men could push her into a heterosexual relationship.

I agree Alys Rivers could be Rhaena's daughter, but doubt in that case that the father was Maegor Towers. He was practically a child while she lived with him, and not a healthy one. A father descended from Houses Harroway or Qoherys via the bastard or the female route is a more intriguing possibility. Rhaena was said to not seek out company during her time at Harrenhal, but to be a dutiful host when visitors came. Such a father might then have been a local guest (and most locals received the unwelcome attentions of Garon the Guest, including perhaps the Harroways of Lord Harroway's Town) or a bastard descendant on staff at Harrenhal. While Rhaena almost certainly preferred women sexually, she may still have been interested in being a mother again, so may still have sought out a male partner.

That said I find it more likely that Alys descended from Lucamore Strong. In which case I am very intrigued by Lucamore Strong's full ancestry (not just male).

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

More secret children one can imagine for the Targaryens we don't know the end of - like Septa Rhaella and Archmaester Vaegon. The latter doesn't seem to have a big interest in sex or relationships as a youth ... but he could have met somebody in Oldtown who eventually cracked his shell - say, a woman of equal interests and personality. And the latter is a septa when we last hear about her ... but that doesn't mean she died a septa nor that she couldn't have given birth to bastards.

I have also considered Vaegon and Rhaella or Vaegon and his sister Maegelle. Or even one or the other of those and some Hightower. Possible. They are all somewhat off the radar during their childbearing years which makes them intriguing. The description of Vaegon makes him sound like someone with Aspergers or high functioning autism which has two implications: First, that his supposed lack of interest may have been a misinterpretation as autistic people are not necessarily uninterested in connection, they simply are not good at achieving it with neurotypicals. Second, queen Helaena's representation as vaguely autistic in House of the Dragon may be trying to tell us something about Alicent's lineage.

[Hippocras]

But...

Back to Rhaena and Aegon. The timing is very tight. Rhaena would need to have been not obviously pregnant before Aegon left for war. So only Aegon and a tiny handful of very trusted people knew that she was no more than 4-5 months pregnant (at 5 months she could still have seemed like she had merely gained some weight if she wore the right clothes, but noone not in the know could have seen her anything less than fully dressed).

Concealing a birth at or near Pinkmaiden with people loyal to Melony and Jon Piper was not out of the question. After the birth, the baby may have gone to the Vale. Houses Corbray and Royce in particular stick out as relevant in the story of Aegon and Rhaena.

Regarding House Royce, we know that Aenys "rewarded" Allard Royce for his role in ending the Vale rebellion. These honours may have included a Targaryen blooded bride who then became mother of Alayne Royce. This would mean that House Royce may have been a good place to hide a child of Aegon and Rhaena as their appearance could have passed at the time as unremarkable there.

House Corbray were known supporters of Aegon the Uncrowned, but who also managed to survive the reign of Maegor. Their association with Targaryens goes back to the early days at least, where a Corbray was master-at-arms on Dragonstone. The possibility of some Valyrian blood in this family therefore clearly exists and also makes it possible that a child of Aegon and Rhaena could have been effectively hidden among the Corbrays.

Anf then of course there are the Arryns themselves. Humbert Arryn was the brother-in-law of Allard Royce. There is not currently any sense that they had Valyrian blood but possible I suppose. In which case a child may have been concealed within House Arryn.

 

I think that if Aegon and Rhaena had a third child, it was probably a daughter as well. The likelihood that a male child's claim to the throne would have been asserted during the time of Jaehaerys is high.

I do however like the idea that a child was hidden in the Vale, where he or she became an ancestor of Corwyn Corbray at least, but possibly also Aemma Arryn (longer shot, as it would imply Rodrik himself was Rhaena's child, born 44). It would explain some of the decisions made during Jaehaerys's reign. It would also make the link between the two Rhaenas. I have a niggling feeling there is some connection there that matters, and that Rhaena not getting a dragon until she went to the Vale may be GRRM's way of hinting at us that the bloodline of the dragons through Rhaena I and Aegon could not be expressed (hatch) until Rhaena II went there. Obviously Rhaena II did not have a Corbray child, and her line continued via the Hightower family, nevertheless her dragon being born in the Vale seems to mean something and her time there makes it likely that at least one of her 6 Hightower daughters married into a Vale family, linking the bloodlines of the two Rhaenas in the post-Dance/Early Blackfyre eras.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I think this is a fair point, but with some wiggle room. Maegor thought until quite late in the game that he could and would father a legitimate child. Why did he think that? Could be just pride and the whole male ego issue around infertility. But it could also be that he knew he had a bastard. In this case he did not legitimize them because they were too lowborn and would never be accepted, and/or because they were female and so even less likely to be convincing to the lords of Westeros than Aerea. He wanted a son. A lowborn bastard daughter would have been worth nothing to him except evidence that he could in fact father children.

Because he was an arrogant guy. Maegor thought he could have multiple wives, if one of his whores or a woman he had raped had given him a child he would have legitimized it. No question about that. Like he claimed the Iron Throne because he could, he would have thought he could also pass it on to a person of his choice, never mind how low her birth was. Even if he were not to deem such a child worthy to be his heir for some reason he would have still paraded them around to show the world that he could father viable offspring.

10 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I agree Alys Rivers could be Rhaena's daughter, but doubt in that case that the father was Maegor Towers. He was practically a child while she lived with him, and not a healthy one.

He was a youth when he died in 61 AC, old enough to have sex with Rhaena in the years shortly before his death.

10 hours ago, Hippocras said:

That said I find it more likely that Alys descended from Lucamore Strong. In which case I am very intrigued by Lucamore Strong's full ancestry (not just male).

More interesting there would be the background of his wives.

10 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I have also considered Vaegon and Rhaella or Vaegon and his sister Maegelle. Or even one or the other of those and some Hightower. Possible. They are all somewhat off the radar during their childbearing years which makes them intriguing. The description of Vaegon makes him sound like someone with Aspergers or high functioning autism which has two implications: First, that his supposed lack of interest may have been a misinterpretation as autistic people are not necessarily uninterested in connection, they simply are not good at achieving it with neurotypicals. Second, queen Helaena's representation as vaguely autistic in House of the Dragon may be trying to tell us something about Alicent's lineage.

Both Vaegon's and Rhaella's presence at Oldtown would make them prominent with the Hightowers, one imagines. It is easily imaginable that Rhaella and Maegelle both exerted a considerable amount of power there, representing Jaehaerys I with the Most Devout and the High Septons, ensuring that they didn't get out of line and the Doctrine of Exceptionalism wasn't touched.

However, Maegelle clearly died a septa, so she obviously wasn't a fallen woman. Hard to imagine her to conceal a pregnancy and give birth to a bastard. Rhaella's later life we don't know, so there are all kind of scenarios imaginable how she could have born bastards and/or left the holy orders to marry some lord. Also, both the tragic death of her twin sister - about which she might have been told in detail during her visit at court shortly before the Shivers winter - as well as the trauma of the Shivers could have had considerable effects on her personality. If there was a switch then she could have blamed herself for her sister's death, knowing she should have been the one to been at court, not her sister, causing her to reconsider certain aspects of her life.

Vaegon would have likely spent his life as an archmaester, to be sure, but he still could have found love somehow. Sarella Sand might not be the first woman to study at the Citadel. And we certainly should imagine that the more ambitious students at the Citadel would have sought the favor and friendship of the royal prince serving as an archmaester there. Otto Hightower has a reputation for learning, indicating a formal or informal closeness to the Citadel, and Lyonel Strong even forged some links before deciding not to become a maester.

But, of course, Vaegon is far too young to be an ancestor of Alicent unless you want to assume he cuckolded Otto and slept with his wife. I do assume, though, that Vaegon may have been the one to suggest Otto as a candidate for the Handship to his father.

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I think that if Aegon and Rhaena had a third child, it was probably a daughter as well. The likelihood that a male child's claim to the throne would have been asserted during the time of Jaehaerys is high.

Regardless who it was, it would have to be lost to Rhaena. Else they would have looked for it afterwards, to restore it to its rightful place. Strikes one also as increasingly unlikely that a incest-born Targaryen child could have been hidden in plain sight among the nobility considering the likelihood of they inheriting strong Valyrian traits (like Aerea and Rhaella had them).

If such a child existed, they would have given it away for good, most likely to a commoner family. In Oldtown or Lannisport the looks may have been less striking if the parents had a Free Cities background, having migrated there from Lys or Volantis.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Lord Varys

[Hippocras]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because he was an arrogant guy. 

I mean, sure, but there are different ways of being arrogant, giving different reactions. He was not the same person as Aegon IV. Refusing to believe there was a problem and so the fault lay with his wives, and even marrying 3 women at once in the first place - that points to hubris and the belief until the end that he would father a legitimate son. So no need to complicate things with a legitimized bastard. In the end we just don't know. If GRRM wants Maegor to have left a bastard then we will eventually find out. And it could well be that he had one or more bastards that he himself never knew about (and so Tyanna could not have known about either).

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

He was a youth when he died in 61 AC, old enough to have sex with Rhaena in the years shortly before his death.

More interesting there would be the background of his wives.

 

Sure, yes. Maegor is possible, I just doubt it. There was a household at Harrenhal, and there was the occasional guest so other possibilities exist. House Towers does not seem all that significant or connected in the grand scheme of things, so I don't see any story benefit to Maegor being a father. Whereas the guests and staff have reasonable probability of descending from Houses Qoherys and/or Harroway.

Lucamore's wives are interesting unknown females yes. I like those mysteries. But House Strong itself has some kind of importance that goes back before they were given Harrenhal. They may have been involved in its construction as a Riverlands House from near the mouth of the Trident (sigil has all 3 forks), which is what recommended them for building the walls of KL.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaella's later life we don't know, so there are all kind of scenarios imaginable how she could have born bastards and/or left the holy orders to marry some lord. Also, both the tragic death of her twin sister - about which she might have been told in detail during her visit at court shortly before the Shivers winter - as well as the trauma of the Shivers could have had considerable effects on her personality....

...Otto Hightower has a reputation for learning, indicating a formal or informal closeness to the Citadel, and Lyonel Strong even forged some links before deciding not to become a maester.

But, of course, Vaegon is far too young to be an ancestor of Alicent unless you want to assume he cuckolded Otto and slept with his wife. I do assume, though, that Vaegon may have been the one to suggest Otto as a candidate for the Handship to his father.

Oh yes, I agree Vaegon was too young. I just meant a hint at a family connection earlier that we don't know about. Vaegon and Rhaella were first cousins, but born 20 years apart. Time enough for Rhaella to have quit being a septa and married, after Aerea's death and once Jaehaerys's royal succession was safely established of course. She might then have become the mother of either Otto or his wife (probably wife). This would make Otto's place as Hand and the subsequent ambitions of his line directly connected to their feeling passed over in the succession, and make their male primogeniture stand interestingly hypocritical. Remember there are a small handful of claimants from the Great Council of 101 whose identities we don't know yet. Otto being married to one of them would certainly be interesting. The small caveat here is that Rhaella was in Oldtown until her mother's death because we know Rhaena visited her, so if she married before the age of 30 then it was within and Oldtown family.

If Vaegon had a love interest it may not have been Rhaella herself, but a daughter of hers.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I mean, sure, but there are different ways of being arrogant, giving different reactions. He was not the same person as Aegon IV. Refusing to believe there was a problem and so the fault lay with his wives, and even marrying 3 women at once in the first place - that points to hubris and the belief until the end that he would father a legitimate son. So no need to complicate things with a legitimized bastard. In the end we just don't know. If GRRM wants Maegor to have left a bastard then we will eventually find out. And it could well be that he had one or more bastards that he himself never knew about (and so Tyanna could not have known about either).

I think Maegor would have indeed legitimized a bastard had he fathered one prior to the black brides wedding. He had no heir then, after all. Afterwards he may have been more reluctant. But then - after the black brides he would live only for a couple of months, no time to see a pregnancy on a whore through.

Even if he was constantly aiming for a trueborn son - and he didn't, as him fucking many other women proves - then he would still have acknowledged and honored a baseborn bastard of his even if he wasn't willing to legitimize him and name him heir. It would have shown to the world that he was capable of fathering living children. And that, in turn, may have caused him to not to come up with the black brides polygamy travesty - which apparently played a big role in his eventual downfall.

Keep in mind that he didn't just need an heir for the throne but also more dragonriders to eventually claim Vhagar and the young drakes. Bastard sons and daughters would have been assets to Maegor - especially such he may have fathered back during the reign of his father since they would have been old enough to claim dragons during his reign and/or help him fight his wars.

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Sure, yes. Maegor is possible, I just doubt it. There was a household at Harrenhal, and there was the occasional guest so other possibilities exist. House Towers does not seem all that significant or connected in the grand scheme of things, so I don't see any story benefit to Maegor being a father. Whereas the guests and staff have reasonable probability of descending from Houses Qoherys and/or Harroway.

The Qoherys family and the Harroways are clearly gone, or King Aenys would have granted Harrenhal to some Qoherys cousin. In fact, it might be that the Harroways got the castle because they were such cousins through the female line. But Maegor killed all the Harroways, just as Aemond later killed all the Strongs.

There is a small chance that perhaps Prentys Tully is a descendant of Quenton Qoherys as the Tullys and the Lords of Harrenhal tended to intermarry ... but obviously Aenys and later Maegor didn't then want to made the Lords of Riverrun also the Lords of Harrenhal.

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Lucamore's wives are interesting unknown females yes. I like those mysteries. But House Strong itself has some kind of importance that goes back before they were given Harrenhal. They may have been involved in its construction as a Riverlands House from near the mouth of the Trident (sigil has all 3 forks), which is what recommended them for building the walls of KL.

A wife of Lucamore's could have had a Targaryen bastard background. I do like the idea that Prince Viserys might have had a posthumous bastard child, the result of him being forced or invited to accompany Maegor on a brothel tour before their falling-out. He was the king's squire (and, I imagine, presumptive heir), so it is not unlikely at all that Maegor would have wanted to make a man out of him, etc.

Such a kid and later descendants could have been like worthy traders, merchants, smiths, etc. in KL. Might also be effectively a non-acknowledged bastard as Viserys would have died before the both, creating a kind of Glendon Ball scenario. Lucamore certainly could have fallen in love with such a woman.

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Oh yes, I agree Vaegon was too young. I just meant a hint at a family connection earlier that we don't know about. Vaegon and Rhaella were first cousins, but born 20 years apart. Time enough for Rhaella to have quit being a septa and married, after Aerea's death and once Jaehaerys's royal succession was safely established of course. She might then have become the mother of either Otto or his wife (probably wife). This would make Otto's place as Hand and the subsequent ambitions of his line directly connected to their feeling passed over in the succession, and make their male primogeniture stand interestingly hypocritical. Remember there are a small handful of claimants from the Great Council of 101 whose identities we don't know yet. Otto being married to one of them would certainly be interesting. The small caveat here is that Rhaella was in Oldtown until her mother's death because we know Rhaena visited her, so if she married before the age of 30 then it was within and Oldtown family.

Both Otto and Alicent having confirmed Targaryen blood would be very problematic for the plot. Otto would have enough ambition then to aim for the throne for himself, not his grandson, and both Otto and Alicent would have then either claimed dragons or would have tried to do so.

Alicent would have then been deemed a worthy wife for King Viserys I, being effectively in the same league as Laena Velaryon. More importantly, though, Alicent's brothers and nephews would have been considered as matches for Rhaenyra.

Even if one were to go with a Targaryen-Beauforts setting - where Rhaella was permitted to leave holy orders and marry on the condition that she and her descendants forfeited all claims to the Iron Throne - such a setting wouldn't erase the blood of the dragon. They would have the talent to claim dragons and they would have tried. Especially once they ended up marrying into the royal family as Alicent did.

The only thing one could imagine for Otto and/or Alicent is a scenario where there are rumors that the official family tree might be wrong. But we cannot really include Rhaella as a potential 'true mother' into the family tree - at least not without a lot of really fantastical elements. In that sense it might be more interesting to have rumors about Otto and Vaegon being close buddies in Oldtown ... and there being a potential love triangle between Otto, his (future) wife, and Vaegon around the time of Alicent's conception - and only then. But if true, this would add a very strange dynamic to Otto-Alicent, so at best one could go with this as 'a rumor'.

For Rhaella I think Lyonel Strong might be a better connection. He is confirmed to have lived at Oldtown while he was studying at the Citadel, so he could have met her. In fact, one can go with both Rhaella being one of his wives as well as her being his mother. If Lyonel wasn't a son of Bywin Strong but rather a grandson, Rhaella could have fallen in with a younger son of Bywin's in the wake of her mother's death - say, she came to Harrenhal for Rhaena's funeral, stayed a while, fell in with the strong Strong guy, and took him with her to Oldtown. Also, of course, such a son could have been fostered in Oldtown with the Hightowers for some reason, allowing him to meet Rhaella there. Lyonel would then have been born there, lived there, studied at the Citadel until tragedy struck and made his father or him the next Lord of Harrenhal.

The idea that Lyonel was allowed to attend the Citadel as heir to Harrenhal is less likely. Especially if Bywin was his father as Harrenhal is a really grand seat, so the new lord would want to prepare his son himself for his eventual role. Even more so since the Strongs weren't great lords before.

In context, though, I'd imagine Rhaella having a not-so-quiet life in Oldtown prior to a hypothetical marriage. She could easily enough be drawn into politics and schemes simply because of who and what she was - and also because FaB doesn't finish the Targaryens vs. the Faith story. The whole era of the judicial reforms Jaehaerys I eventually pushed through isn't covered by the book. And I definitely imagine that Alysanne did not just hand Maegelle to the Faith 'to pay the Mother back' ... but rather to have an ear and a voice in Oldtown to ensure the Faith did not step out of line. A role Rhaella may have had before Maegelle got old enough to act as a representative of the Crown.

Vaegon may have acted in a similar capacity in the Citadel - and all of them with the Hightowers.

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

If Vaegon had a love interest it may not have been Rhaella herself, but a daughter of hers.

Vaegon being a Targaryen doesn't need another Targaryen-blooded lover.

[Hippocras]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Qoherys family and the Harroways are clearly gone, or King Aenys would have granted Harrenhal to some Qoherys cousin. In fact, it might be that the Harroways got the castle because they were such cousins through the female line. But Maegor killed all the Harroways, just as Aemond later killed all the Strongs.

Well yes, exactly. The Harroways very likely got the castle because they were female line Qoherys, or, more darkly; obvious products of Garon the Guest's behaviour. The proximity of Lord Harroway's Town which was likely their seat before Harrenhal makes it all but certain.

Maegor killed all those named Harroway, but could not simply murder everyone Garon the Guest ever raped or any and all children he produced by First Night, many of them continuing to reside in the area and work in the household of Harrehal. Also former Harroways of the female persuasion who were by then married into other Houses would have been exempt as this would have meant making enemies of more Houses who were his allies. If they did not still have the name Harroway they were not part of the purge. Which means that a Lady Harroway, aunt of Alys, may have been by then a Strong, a Darry, Mooton, Cox etc. 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Both Otto and Alicent having confirmed Targaryen blood would be very problematic for the plot. Otto would have enough ambition then to aim for the throne for himself, not his grandson, and both Otto and Alicent would have then either claimed dragons or would have tried to do so.

I think it more likely it would have been just Alicent, as it came from her mother, not Otto. I think furthermore that he DID aim for the throne for his family very clearly. His child or children descending from Rhaella (2 generations of female line) after she was placed out of the line of succession by Jaehaery's ascension and his fathering of multiple heirs meant that pursuing any ambitions would take more long game routes and a great deal of subterfuge. Particularly if Otto's Targ-blooded wife was not even Rhaella's eldest child. But him gaining position of Hand of the King would have been a form of appeasement as it gave him power that was his own, not his wife's or children's. As for gaining dragons: Rhaella never had one and they had no eggs, so not a simple matter if not in the good graces of House Targaryen. Also Rhaella never had any ambitions for the throne and likely passed on her faith and acceptance of the succession to any children, so until Otto's potentially Targ blooded wife died she would have been a restraint on Otto's designs. He could not in good faith push her claim if she didn't want it.

That said I am not uninterested in your Lionel Strong idea. It ties in the darker side of things and Rhaena's presence at Harrenhal.

And yet I think for a true untangling of the bloodlines what is really needed here is a child of Rhaena and Maegor, and not a descendant of Rhaella's. My reason for this is that Aegon the Uncrowned likely had descendants, hidden under other names. His line continues without Rhaella or Aerea. If Rhaena and Maegor had a child, or if their lines connected in other ways (a child of Rhaena's at Harrenhal mated with a bastard of Maegor's for example), then these lines could also reconnect in subsequent generations with Aegon's without dreaming up a long shot love triangle for Rhaella or anyone else. I think what the brother-sister marriage thing is really about is managing bloodline splits, and that once split, there is an almost metaphysical drive for them to reconnect. So Jaehaerys's multiple children, and the splits that happened before his reign as well, are all reconnecting by complicated routes.

Visenya was the eldest of her siblings. By some laws that would make her, not Aegon, the ruler. Her only child was Maegor, which is why Maegor's descendants matter. Rhaena I was also the eldest of her siblings, so also, by some laws the one who should have been queen. Passing over Visenya, Rhaena, Jaehaerys's first chilc (a daughter), and then Rhaenys, and then Rhaenyra.... it was a long chain of passing over women for one reason or another that feels significant. This is why both Rhaena I and Maegor's lines matter (as does Rhaenys (Velaryon) line but that is for another discussion).

Edited June 13, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Well yes, exactly. The Harroways very likely got the castle because they were female line Qoherys, or, more darkly; obvious products of Garon the Guest's behaviour. The proximity of Lord Harroway's Town which was likely their seat before Harrenhal makes it all but certain.

That strikes one as very unlikely. Gargon may have fucked a lot common women in their wedding nights ... but other noblewomen whose husbands were sworn to Harrenhal is less likely. We never hear about something like that happening while the First Night was still a thing. Perhaps it might make sense to assume that Gargon slept with some knightly women in their wedding nights, but even that would be stupidity. And the rebellion against him seems to have been more a commoner uprising than something backed by the local nobility.

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Maegor killed all those named Harroway, but could not simply murder everyone Garon the Guest ever raped or any and all children he produced by First Night, many of them continuing to reside in the area and work in the household of Harrehal. Also former Harroways of the female persuasion who were by then married into other Houses would have been exempt as this would have meant making enemies of more Houses who were his allies. If they did not still have the name Harroway they were not part of the purge. Which means that a Lady Harroway, aunt of Alys, may have been by then a Strong, a Darry, Mooton, Cox etc. 

While nobody ever eradicated the Qoherys line, Maegor did destroy all the Harroways and with considerable effort. It might be that he didn't get all the Harroways through the female line, but I imagine that he killed all the female line Harroways during the Harrenhal era of the house ... and those from the earlier times would have been even easier as they wouldn't have been married to particularly prominent houses.

Lord Lucas' more immediate female kin was close to Queen Alys and thus very easy prey for Maegor. But, of course, we can assume that people who happened to have an obscure Harroway great-grandmother were spared. Maegor wouldn't necessarily have known about that.

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I think it more likely it would have been just Alicent, as it came from her mother, not Otto. I think furthermore that he DID aim for the throne for his family very clearly. His child or children descending from Rhaella (2 generations of female line) after she was placed out of the line of succession by Jaehaery's ascension and his fathering of multiple heirs meant that pursuing any ambitions would take more long game routes and a great deal of subterfuge. Particularly if Otto's Targ-blooded wife was not even Rhaella's eldest child. But him gaining position of Hand of the King would have been a form of appeasement as it gave him power that was his own, not his wife's or children's. As for gaining dragons: Rhaella never had one and they had no eggs, so not a simple matter if not in the good graces of House Targaryen. Also Rhaella never had any ambitions for the throne and likely passed on her faith and acceptance of the succession to any children, so until Otto's potentially Targ blooded wife died she would have been a restraint on Otto's designs. He could not in good faith push her claim if she didn't want it.

If Otto's wife had been a Targaryen descendant then her sons, Alicent's brothers (some of who might have even survived the Dance), would have been royalty, too. They would have been more prominent during the reign of Viserys I and during the Dance.

That Rhaella and whatever children she might have had weren't dragonriders - although if Rhaella left the Faith and married she could easily have claimed Dreamfyre after her mother's death (she is riderless from 73 AC until whenever Helaena claimed her much later) - doesn't mean Alicent Hightower and her brothers wouldn't have tried to claim dragons after Alicent had become queen. Then she would obviously have both the right and the power to claim whatever dragon she wanted to try out.

This is a real problem for this idea here.

Also, I don't think there is any reason to assume that descendants of Maegor or Visenya or Rhaena or Aegon the Uncrowned survived. Although the latter could be the case through Rhaella, of course.

The reason why I find the idea of Rhaena having a third child by Aegon not bad is that this could explain why Rhaena didn't participate in Aegon's campaign - despite the fact that she clearly was courageous enough to do so as she shows both earlier and later.

And I actually do like the idea that the kid may have been a son there, and thus one she really had to hide completely.