How did the Freys still have a Bridge Monopoly?

[SerDuncan]

Not for long 

[Alden Rothack]

7 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Roose is a good commander agreed

The green fork people.forget he almost won it all.for the north 

I fully believe Roose could have won and probably with fewer causalties had he wanted, Edmure after all won with an even smaller army later on

8 hours ago, Leonardo Abreu said:

I have always wondered quite the opposite. How did they get so powerful by building a bridge that to me is mostly used by Jason Mallister to take a holiday on the Narrow Sea beaches?

It was important for Robb to attack the Riverrun besiegers, sure, but on day to day? I don’t see a major trade route passing there to justify their status.

its the only major castle on the river and only known crossing for about four hundred miles, any trade going to the Vale has to go through the twins and any trade going further south has to go through either the twins or the ruby ford near harroway, saltpans and harrenhal.

 

8 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I also think the RL campaign is George trying to give the readers a more accurate picture of medieval warfare, where major set piece battles were very rare and usually avoided by both parties. Instead it was this kind of constant low level siege and sally life that becomes more about endurance (particularly to famine and disease, siege warfare’s two main death dealers) and odds, and occasional choices. During the HYW soldiers could live entire lives never getting a sniff of anything like an Agincourt, but spending their entire life fighting at war. 

I agree he is trying to do so and sometimes he suceeds (Tywins army at the Green Fork is similarly cavalry heavy to the french at agincourt but is lucky enough not to face Henry V's 6000 veteran longbowmen) but other times he doesn't partly I suspect because understanding of history is so much more accessiable now.

 

6 hours ago, sifth said:

To be honest, The Twins often feel like a macguffin at best, and a plot hole at worst. There's only one massive bridge that takes people from one side of the Neck, to the other and the Tully's allow a house of questionable loyalty to use it. A lot of those things just seem a little too convenient to me.

its the trident not the neck though its near the neck

it is extremely curious though the loyalty question is easily answered, they controlled it for hundreds of years before the Tully's were in a position to do anything about it and the few times the Tullys were influencial enough to beat them they were either staunch allies such as during the Dance or the Tully's had an old lord who couldn't be bothered.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

I fully believe Roose could have won and probably with fewer causalties had he wanted, Edmure after all won with an even smaller army later on

 

Naah he tried his best , the surpise attack had it not been fpr the scouts could have ended tywin.

Then.of course he had to give battle and had a numbers advantage with men but massively outgunned with heavy cavalry.

Add in tyrions savages turned out to be excellent fighters ploughing forward no matter what the casulties  and of course the mountain somehow breaking a spearwall singlehandedly!!!

[astarkchoice]

9 hours ago, sifth said:

To be honest, The Twins often feel like a macguffin at best, and a plot hole at worst. There's only one massive bridge that takes people from one side of the Neck, to the other and the Tully's allow a house of questionable loyalty to use it. A lot of those things just seem a little too convenient to me.

Bear in mind the tullys where gifted the lordship of the riverlands they didnt earn it in combat by beating down the other houses. The ancient  freys clearly saw the potebtial early and settled onnit  , they  had already built the twins and clearly broken all others who attempted the same idea  into their nearby minor house vassals.

The freys themselves probably own the land for miles around too as they are a powerful house ...so there may not be anything geographicly suitable to build on for miles and miles around!!

Bear in mind theres many of these strategic castles in westeros from the dornish pass ones, moat catlin, the golden tooth one(forgot name) etc

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

To be honest, The Twins often feel like a macguffin at best, and a plot hole at worst. There's only one massive bridge that takes people from one side of the Neck, to the other and the Tully's allow a house of questionable loyalty to use it. A lot of those things just seem a little too convenient to me.

Yep. Realistically at least one another family or individual should have realized the profit of building a strategically placed bridge after seeing the Frey bridge success, and build at least one another bridge to give them competition and get rich too.

[Mad King Bolton]

I think the main reason is that taxes to cross the bridge are not so horrible and small folk who need the bridge for simple reasons do, or use other small rope or raft crossings depending on season.

the rare issue that comes up is if an army wants to use it and in this case a rebel army. Allowing the crossing for money or a separate deal has consequences which make the crossing army consider other options and wish there were multiple ways across. 
 

so the Frey’s have a monopoly because to e river sucks, they got the best spot and it wasn’t worth it under basic every day conditions to build another. In this case I don’t think it’s so strange. 
 

there aren’t many bridges to cross from the states to Canada or back as it’s in one territories best interest to have fewer places to cross

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

its the trident not the neck though its near the neck

it is extremely curious though the loyalty question is easily answered, they controlled it for hundreds of years before the Tully's were in a position to do anything about it and the few times the Tullys were influencial enough to beat them they were either staunch allies such as during the Dance or the Tully's had an old lord who couldn't be bothered.

My mistake. Still let's not pretend that what is given, can't be taken away. In fact, the Frey's not really taking part in Robert's Rebellion, would have been a perfect time for the Tully's to remove the Frey's from power. Robert loved fighting after all, and giving bannermen with questionable loyalty that much power, just seems like a powder keg, ready to go off at the neck war. If not, than he could have had one of his children marry a Frey.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Bear in mind the tullys where gifted the lordship of the riverlands they didnt earn it in combat by beating down the other houses. The ancient  freys clearly saw the potebtial early and settled onnit  , they  had already built the twins and clearly broken all others who attempted the same idea  into their nearby minor house vassals.

The freys themselves probably own the land for miles around too as they are a powerful house ...so there may not be anything geographicly suitable to build on for miles and miles around!!

Bear in mind theres many of these strategic castles in westeros from the dornish pass ones, moat catlin, the golden tooth one(forgot name) etc

That's a lot of conjecture, your using.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

That's a lot of conjecture, your using.

Until grmm says otherwise its all we got  when talking about his fantasy world man

[Alden Rothack]

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Naah he tried his best , the surpise attack had it not been fpr the scouts could have ended tywin.

Then.of course he had to give battle and had a numbers advantage with men but massively outgunned with heavy cavalry.

Add in tyrions savages turned out to be excellent fighters ploughing forward no matter what the casulties  and of course the mountain somehow breaking a spearwall singlehandedly!!!

I'm sure he could have attacked before he did

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I'm sure he could have attacked before he did

Nope he marched his men all night dude

We literaly hear from tyrions pov the scouts caught them and tywins camp is scambling to arm and prepare.....roose was 1hr or so so down the road! The difference in a couple of lucky arrow shots catching those scouts could have meant total suprise!

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope he marched his men all night dude

We literaly hear from tyrions pov the scouts caught them and tywins camp is scambling to arm and prepare.....roose was 1hr or so so down the road! The difference in a couple of lucky arrow shots catching those scouts could have meant total suprise!

Roose sits there while the lannisters get in formation rather than attacking as soon as hes ready.

[John Suburbs]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:41 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Somehow in hundreds of years there has not even been an attempt to build an alternative bridge? And before someone says that the Freys strangled any potential competition in its cradle, they only really have the ability to enforce that in their own lands. Especially given the tolls, there is a great incentive for someone else to build a new bridge, to avoid paying the Frey tolls and charge their own. It wouldn't have to be anything fancy. But no one has even tried. Why? It is like the lack of any even attempted slave revolts in Essos. Over hundreds of years no one has even tried to challenge the status quo? Not even once? Is everyone In-Universe just that inclined to complacency and maintaining the usual state of things?

Bridges ain't cheap or easy to build, especially the farther downriver you go. So the Freys could easily have gained control over the river far enough to the south to make any new construction not worth the bother.

What's more interesting is that the bridge probably has not been a great source of wealth for some time. Before Robb came along, there isn't likely to have been an urgent need to cross an army (maybe Ned, during RR), unlike pre-conquest when there was constant warring, even under the Hoares. Nor is it along the route of the central commercial artery, the kingsroad. So at best it may generate some income from local trade, but even then, it would make more sense to float goods downriver to the market towns, not cross at the Twins.

So I suspect that the wealth of the Freys is pretty much spent, which accounts for the paucity of Walder's halls, the lack of fancy clothes among his kin, and the fact that he could only offer his daughter's weight in silver, not gold. It seems to me that if he really wanted to pose himself as a wealthy and powerful banner lord on level with the Hightowers and Redwynes, he'd flaunt it more.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Roose sits there while the lannisters get in formation rather than attacking as soon as hes ready.

They discover him about an hours march away dude!  The surprise is gone , even fully armoured knights take barely 15 mins or so to be fully ready!  

So its a choice between 1)charging ahead towards a  prepared camp while being harassed by scouts , 2)retreat as you are discovered and sit where robb told him or 3) offer battle at a site of his own choosing!!!

 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Bridges ain't cheap or easy to build, especially the farther downriver you go. So the Freys could easily have gained control over the river far enough to the south to make any new construction not worth the bother.

What's more interesting is that the bridge probably has not been a great source of wealth for some time. Before Robb came along, there isn't likely to have been an urgent need to cross an army (maybe Ned, during RR), unlike pre-conquest when there was constant warring, even under the Hoares. Nor is it along the route of the central commercial artery, the kingsroad. So at best it may generate some income from local trade, but even then, it would make more sense to float goods downriver to the market towns, not cross at the Twins.

So I suspect that the wealth of the Freys is pretty much spent, which accounts for the paucity of Walder's halls, the lack of fancy clothes among his kin, and the fact that he could only offer his daughter's weight in silver, not gold. It seems to me that if he really wanted to pose himself as a wealthy and powerful banner lord on level with the Hightowers and Redwynes, he'd flaunt it more.

Good call

 

But to be be fair keeping a huge  brood like walders all living as lords has gotta be a massive strain on finances!! Every one needing fancy clothes ,food ,many of the boys needing fine armour and weapons for combat and tourneys etc. In a downward financial spiral the more kids he has the less anyone wants to marry one and take some of the cost off his hands!!!

[Leonardo Abreu]

10 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

its the only major castle on the river and only known crossing for about four hundred miles, any trade going to the Vale has to go through the twins and any trade going further south has to go through either the twins or the ruby ford near harroway, saltpans and harrenhal.

Trade to the Vale from where? Seagard? The Ironborn? From anywhere else south of the Blue Fork the Ruby Ford is much more viable.

Again not saying the bridge is not useful, doubly so in times of war, but not that useful for the Freys to get THAT rich and powerful. Not when compared to houses controlling more trade-significantly placed hubs.

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

They discover him about an hours march away dude!  The surprise is gone , even fully armoured knights take barely 15 mins or so to be fully ready!  

So its a choice between 1)charging ahead towards a  prepared camp while being harassed by scouts , 2)retreat as you are discovered and sit where robb told him or 3) offer battle at a site of his own choosing!!!

 

it takes 20 minutes on average for a knight with two helpers and then he has to mount up and get in formation with the others, even the clansmen had time to get in formation before Roose did anything even harass them at low range with bows.

[Alden Rothack]

42 minutes ago, Leonardo Abreu said:

Trade to the Vale from where? Seagard? The Ironborn? From anywhere else south of the Blue Fork the Ruby Ford is much more viable.

Again not saying the bridge is not useful, doubly so in times of war, but not that useful for the Freys to get THAT rich and powerful. Not when compared to houses controlling more trade-significantly placed hubs.

For everyone north of riverrun the twins is closer and most likely cheaper for that reason

particularly as the ruby was most likely controlled by one of the two lords in that area until fairly recently

[astarkchoice]

15 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

it takes 20 minutes on average for a knight with two helpers and then he has to mount up and get in formation with the others, even the clansmen had time to get in formation before Roose did anything even harass them at low range with bows.

So thats still about 40 mins to spare sport 

The men at arms and clans men will be up far sooner, no once the scouts where reporting back the surpise element  was done. 

Charging a prepared and ready camp  while being harassed all the time by scouts wouls be terrible.

Again roose has 3 options once found either to try tywins camp an hour away and ready and possibly fortified, retreat back to where robb ordered him to stay or engage in a battle.

Roose fancied his chances so formed up for battle on some light hills , if it hadnt been for tyrions clansmen giving  agressive extra  numbers and the mountains inhuman status then it may have been closer fought battle too.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

So thats still about 40 mins to spare sport 

The men at arms and clans men will be up far sooner, no once the scouts where reporting back the surpise element  was done. 

nope, the men'at-arms will take nearly the same amount of time to get ready though not the extra time to get horses into formation.

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Charging a prepared and ready camp  while being harassed all the time by scouts wouls be terrible.

Again roose has 3 options once found either to try tywins camp an hour away and ready and possibly fortified, retreat back to where robb ordered him to stay or engage in a battle.

Roose fancied his chances so formed up for battle on some light hills , if it hadnt been for tyrions clansmen giving  agressive extra  numbers and the mountains inhuman status then it may have been closer fought battle too.

nope, getting into formation doesn't happen that quickly, even armies made up of trained professionals aren't that fast, adding the clansmen, large amounts of free riders and the amount of cavalry and Roose has plenty of time to move from line of march to battle formation and move in.

as for the idea that the clansmen were a significant factor, theres only a few hundred of them and they lose as often as not.