The Ned, Brandon, and Ashara timeline doesn't make sense.

[maesternewton]

Whether or not it's Ned or Brandon, the problem with theories that state the father of Ashara's baby was a Stark is that the timelines don't make sense.

Most of the theories state that Ashara's babe was conceived during the Tourney of Harrenhal, which happens in 281 AC. Since this is where Barristan states she was dishonored by a Stark.

But part of the reason why Ashara dies by suicide is because she has a stillborn daughter. If her daughter was conceived during the Tourney, then it does not make sense for that to be the cause that makes her jump off a tower since by 283 AC, the year Ashara dies, the baby would have been already dead.

If then the baby was not conceived during the tourney in Harrenhal, then it could not be Brandon since after the Tourney he dies and could not be Ned, since he spends most of his time fighting a war.

Looking at the wiki, it seems like the Tourney of Harrenhal occured close to the end of the year, since it happens in 281 AC but it is stated Brandon dies in 282 AC. And after leaving the Tourney Brandon goes to Riverrun.

[James Arryn]

Bereaved parents don’t only kill themselves in the immediate wake of their loss. Sometimes it just takes time, sometimes another nudge, like say your brother dying, could do it. Saying all this I have no investment in how the Ashara thing played out. I think it seems like something we’ll get further details about, or one of those dead ends where GRRM either gardened away from this line, or that he just likes peppering the text with unknowables to heighten a sense of realism. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by James Arryn

[LongRider]

It is also very likely that Barristan is an unreliable narrator and being as he had a big crush on Ashara, he could of mis-interpreted things or perhaps listened to gossip.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I doubt we’ll ever know for sure, but my money is on Ned. We know Brandon was a dog, but no way would Ned remember Brandon so positively if he slept with his crush. We also don’t really know when Ned went back to the Vale. It may have been immediately after Harrenhal, but we know Lyanna was somewhere in the Riverlands weeks to months after the Tourney. I doubt she was without Brandon or Ned, at least for a good portion of her time. I also can’t recall the timeline of when Ashara went to Dragonstone with Rhaegar. We also don’t know if she was with Rhaegar when he ran off with Lyanna.

 

To be simple, there isn’t much evidence proving one father over the other, so it’s more of a feeling and hope I have. 

[maesternewton]

7 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I doubt we’ll ever know for sure, but my money is on Ned. We know Brandon was a dog, but no way would Ned remember Brandon so positively if he slept with his crush. We also don’t really know when Ned went back to the Vale. It may have been immediately after Harrenhal, but we know Lyanna was somewhere in the Riverlands weeks to months after the Tourney. I doubt she was without Brandon or Ned, at least for a good portion of her time. I also can’t recall the timeline of when Ashara went to Dragonstone with Rhaegar. We also don’t know if she was with Rhaegar when he ran off with Lyanna.

 

To be simple, there isn’t much evidence proving one father over the other, so it’s more of a feeling and hope I have. 

My issue with it being Ned, is that we don't even get a clue of such a thing from Ned. Not even when Cersei brings up Ashara, does Ned react. 

Plus, does Ned even think of Brandon postively?

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

17 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

My issue with it being Ned, is that we don't even get a clue of such a thing from Ned. Not even when Cersei brings up Ashara, does Ned react. 

Plus, does Ned even think of Brandon postively?

It had been like 15 years, and he had grown to love Cat, the mother of his children. He did genuinely love Cat.

[James Arryn]

43 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I doubt we’ll ever know for sure, but my money is on Ned. We know Brandon was a dog, but no way would Ned remember Brandon so positively if he slept with his crush. We also don’t really know when Ned went back to the Vale. It may have been immediately after Harrenhal, but we know Lyanna was somewhere in the Riverlands weeks to months after the Tourney. I doubt she was without Brandon or Ned, at least for a good portion of her time. I also can’t recall the timeline of when Ashara went to Dragonstone with Rhaegar. We also don’t know if she was with Rhaegar when he ran off with Lyanna.

 

To be simple, there isn’t much evidence proving one father over the other, so it’s more of a feeling and hope I have. 

I’m not sure Ned’s memories of Brandon are all that monochromatic. I detect notes of bitterness, envy and slight disapproval along with older brother crush stuff. 

[Castellan]

I don't see why Barristan would know. It's probably in retrospect, hearing that Ashara had had a stillborn child, that people decided that it must have been Brandon at Harrenhal. They just elected a guilty party based on the limited information they have about Ashara. It makes a better story than "they say she had a child we don't know who's"

I think she's probably Septa Lemore.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Whether or not it's Ned or Brandon, the problem with theories that state the father of Ashara's baby was a Stark is that the timelines don't make sense.

Most of the theories state that Ashara's babe was conceived during the Tourney of Harrenhal, which happens in 281 AC. Since this is where Barristan states she was dishonored by a Stark.

But part of the reason why Ashara dies by suicide is because she has a stillborn daughter. If her daughter was conceived during the Tourney, then it does not make sense for that to be the cause that makes her jump off a tower since by 283 AC, the year Ashara dies, the baby would have been already dead.

If then the baby was not conceived during the tourney in Harrenhal, then it could not be Brandon since after the Tourney he dies and could not be Ned, since he spends most of his time fighting a war.

Looking at the wiki, it seems like the Tourney of Harrenhal occured close to the end of the year, since it happens in 281 AC but it is stated Brandon dies in 282 AC. And after leaving the Tourney Brandon goes to Riverrun.

Easily fixed: Allyria, Ned's supposed aunt is Ashara's bastard. Ashara committed suicide because Ned wouldn't be with her. 

[maesternewton]

2 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

It had been like 15 years, and he had grown to love Cat, the mother of his children. He did genuinely love Cat.

Ned thinks about his dead brother and sister more than he does about the women he supposedly was in love with once upon.

If Ned was really the one who "dishonored" Ashara, he would've definitely thought about it once or felt guilty. I don't think loving someone prevents you from thinking about your exes.

[maesternewton]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Easily fixed: Allyria, Ned's supposed aunt is Ashara's bastard. Ashara committed suicide because Ned wouldn't be with her. 

Why would they hide Allyria as Ashara's sister? Is she the daughter of Rhaegar? Cause if she was, at least hiding her existence would make sense, but in this scenario it doesn't because her life is not at risk if people knew her identity.

2 hours ago, Castellan said:

I don't see why Barristan would know. It's probably in retrospect, hearing that Ashara had had a stillborn child, that people decided that it must have been Brandon at Harrenhal. They just elected a guilty party based on the limited information they have about Ashara. It makes a better story than "they say she had a child we don't know who's"

I think she's probably Septa Lemore.

 

Why would Ashara fake her death? 

[Castellan]

so she could run off and support Aegon like a royalist Dayne angry at the death of her brother.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Why would they hide Allyria as Ashara's sister? Is she the daughter of Rhaegar? Cause if she was, at least hiding her existence would make sense, but in this scenario it doesn't because her life is not at risk if people knew her identity.

Because bastardry is such a stain that it even affects your marriage prospects which is important for both the House And the individual, especially if it’s a woman. Just look at  who she was going to marry, Beric Dondarrion, a great lord. Would he have married her if she were a bastard?

We don’t know her age but from all we know she should be in the right spot to be Ashara’s.

[kissdbyfire]

Brandon is the one who had a fling with Ashara, not Ned. And he (Brandon) may have fathered a child on her or not. If he did, that child would be older than Jon, Robb, etc. That child may or may not be alive, Ashara may have killed herself or not. Point being, there are just too many unknowables in all of this. Maybe we’ll learn more, and then again, maybe we won’t and it’s something Martin gardened away from as @James Arryn said. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Brandon is the one who had a fling with Ashara, not Ned. And he (Brandon) may have fathered a child on her or not. If he did, that child would be older than Jon, Robb, etc. That child may or may not be alive, Ashara may have killed herself or not. Point being, there are just too many unknowables in all of this. Maybe we’ll learn more, and then again, maybe we won’t and it’s something Martin gardened away from as @James Arryn said. 

Brandon has, to our knowledge, slept with just one high lady and everyone is claiming that he is involved with anyone from Ashara to Rhaella and even Lyanna. If this was real life, I'd be inclined, at face value that is, to take Brandon over Ned but since this is a story, Ned being Ashara's lover would serve more to the story. Cosnsidering that it doesn't serve to it much right now, it could be anything from a dropped smaller sideplot to just a little addition to flesh out the  characters.

From what I recall Jon was supposed to have brown hair as he currently does but as for his eyes it was going to be those rare violet eyes so Ashara the hot brunette with the haunting violet eyes who committed suicide and was therefore not available for questioning was probably going to be a red herring in the search of Jon's parentage. She still kept her role in the first book but Jon having violet eyes was probaly thought to be too much of a giveaway considering Rhaegar the had violet eyes and his victim and Lyanna supposedly had no child after a year of rape and Ned the honorable suddenly appears with a bastard.

Honestly it's still  too much of a giveaway at least in universe, but, whatever.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Brandon has, to our knowledge, slept with just one high lady

How do you reckon? 

 

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

and everyone is claiming that he is involved with anyone from Ashara to Rhaella and even Lyanna.

Who is saying that? I mean I’ve seen claims made by the usual suspects that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Brandon, which is beyond stupid and unsupported, but I’ve never heard he had a thing with Rhaella… and  to that. 

[Lady_Qohor]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

How do you reckon?

To be fair, we only have hard gossip in story of him sleeping with Barbery. He may have slept with others but it doesn't sound like he was a massive man whore.

If he was I would have thought Cat or Ned would have thought about it or that Lysa or Littlefinger would have mentioned it as a way to insult Brandon.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

To be fair, we only have hard gossip in story of him sleeping with Barbery. He may have slept with others but it doesn't sound like he was a massive man whore.

If he was I would have thought Cat or Ned would have thought about it or that Lysa or Littlefinger would have mentioned it as a way to insult Brandon.

Beg to differ. Not only a lot can be inferred in the way Barbrey talks about him to Theon, but we also have Martin saying that Brandon “certainly was no virgin”, hinting that a man whore is exactly what he was. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

How do you reckon? 

 

I don't want to go the same route as "Ned doesn't think about Ashara so no relation" and say "Ned don't think of Brandon as a womanizer so he isn't" So I'll just say that it's just Barbrey talking and she doesn't seem to be most stable of persons. She LOVES Brandon, wants to marry him then bitches about Ned getting her husband who she didn't care much for killed and not brought his bones back. 

[Curled Finger]

Could be Ashara never slept with either of the Stark brothers and was simply close friends or fast friends with Lyanna.  She was a legendary beauty and had many admirers.  There is no proof she had a child at all.  Likewise, her body was never recovered and like it or not, that does leave an opening for her survival.  Why she wouldn't claim her identity could be for many reasons none of which we are privy to.   All we can be sure of is Ashara Dayne, Elia Martell's close friend, possibly co conspirator of Rhaegar Targaryen, disappeared very soon after her friends died.   Heck of a rash of deaths surrounding Rhaegar, no?  Wonder what happened to Jonathor Darry and Richard Lonmouth?  Howland Reed?  Who else is left from the day?