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Ukraine War: Wagner’s fading thrust


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4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I meant: if your side is actively pursuing ends that will lead to the destruction of Russia I can protest these actions even if Russian rule makers share blame in the outcome. 

Fuck off lol

The equivocation, and attempt to paint Russian Imperialism as what, you don't get it, as a people they're lovers, that's what's at the heart of Russia's various expansions miss me with that too. 

Edited by JGP
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4 minutes ago, JGP said:

Fuck off lol

The equivocation, and attempt to paint Russian Imperialism as what, you don't get it, as a people they're lovers, that's what's at the heart of Russia's various expansions miss me with that too. 

Well I don’t agree with that assessment of my beliefs. I understand why Russia is fighting this war and why they can’t give up and I hope the Russian state survives. 
 

Not because it is doomed to be oppressed or miserable, but because it is an alternative to the western form of imperialism which focuses on a glutinous population with no sense of national purpose. 
 

Russian imperialism I like because it counterbalances Western imperialism. 
 

I think at the core of my disagreement is framing this war as a fight for Ukrainian sovereignty as a western dominated Ukraine would have as much independence as a Russian dominated Ukraine. Actually less because Ukraine shares far less with Europe than it does with Russia. 
 

Most of the tactics people use to describe the Russian military as uncivilized: human wave attacks, massive uncoordinated artillery attacks, civilian casualties, internal repression, forced mobilization, etc. is the same as Ukraine. 
 

Well the west is trying to teach (force) them to use NATO tactics but the UAF is finding that to be less than useless. 
 

You should see how the UAF handled the war in Donbas circa 2015, it would have western liberals explode with indignation. Complete disregard for civilian casualties, torture, intimidation tactics, etc.

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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well I don’t agree with that assessment of my beliefs.

It's a headshot on your chosen theme, and I for one would prefer you knock it off. 

 

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not because it is doomed to be oppressed or miserable, but because it is an alternative to the western form of imperialism which focuses on a glutinous population with no sense of national purpose.

Now you're getting pathetic.

 

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I think at the core of my disagreement is framing this war as a fight for Ukrainian sovereignty as a western dominated Ukraine would have as much independence as a Russian dominated Ukraine. Actually less because Ukraine shares far less with Europe than it does with Russia. 

Clearly, you don't know Ukrainians. Once this is all over, and it will, one day, be over, I've no doubt that while Ukraine may be friendly with the 'West' they've more than illustrated they will be their own people.

 

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Most of the tactics people use to describe the Russian military as uncivilized: human wave attacks, massive uncoordinated artillery attacks, civilian casualties, internal repression, forced mobilization, etc. is the same as Ukraine. 
 

lol

 

 

Edited by JGP
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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ukrainians are in the end of the day Russian people, not as in the political unit which is Russia but the people of Rus. Genetically they are all the same, and what is happening right now is brother killing brother. 

Nope.  And the Russian invasion of Ukraine has absolutely cemented and galvanized “Ukrainian” as an ethnicity seperate and distinct from Russian.  

Any hope of Ukrainian’s seeing themselves as “Little Russians” ended as the massacre in Bucha was revealed in April 2022.  Putin did this.  His actions made absolutely certain that Ukrainians will always see themselves as distinct and separate from Russians.

Well done.

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia

Invaded Ukraine as a war of conquest and occupation.

Eastern Rome was over in 1453, btw, though with the exception of the City, quite some time before that, with the exception of the Church.

Western Rome was over even longer than that, except, of course, for Church.

There is a lot of history.

Edited by Zorral
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2 minutes ago, JGP said:

It's a headshot on your chosen theme, and I for one would prefer you knock it off.  

Love you too. 

2 minutes ago, JGP said:

 

Now you're getting pathetic. 

No but seriously, I don't say I love you in a homoerotic way. Just that internet divisions don't change the fact we would probably be friends IRL. 

2 minutes ago, JGP said:

 

Clearly, you don't know Ukrainians. Once this is all over, and it will, one day, be over, I've no doubt that while Ukraine may be friendly with the 'West' they've more than illustrated they will be their own people. 

I know a LOT of Ukrainians. There are ton in my family who I have to deal with (love em' though). 

Also, I seem to be entangled with a group of Ukrainian gamblers I deal with in Brighton Beach, its become a weekly thing for me now. 

Anyways, the hardcore nationalist rhetoric is going the wayside once western powers don't need it. They hate the Banderites as much as Russians, they are just using them to win the war. After that it is all downhill. Actually Ukraine shares so much culture with Russia the only way to destroy Russian influence is to change their entire society, which many are planning. 

 It starts with small things like celebrating a 'western' christmas and praising Lvov as their most 'European' city then it goes to all the other liberal stuff. Europe doesn't want Ukraine like they are. 

Actually, a lot of the UPA groups were started by ethnic Russians in Ukraine, take that for what you will. 

There form of nationalism will become rejecting Ukrainian culture because of Russian 'colonialism' (lol) and what are they going to replace it with exactly? Well there is only one thing: that mythical idea of 'Europe' which Doskoyvsky talked about.  

2 minutes ago, JGP said:

 

lol

 

 

Soviet military doctrine isn't just soviet, its been around since the time of the Mongols. 

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A significant historical fact your arguments don't deal with is that the kingdom of Rus was Ukraine and it was established by Scandinavians.  Also, you know, Ukraine was a tatar/cossack state, and long long long LONG before it was either, it was a Scythian territory, all of these long before there was anything that called itself Russia.

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8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Nope.  And the Russian invasion of Ukraine has absolutely cemented and galvanized “Ukrainian” as an ethnicity seperate and distinct from Russian.  

Any hope of Ukrainian’s seeing themselves as “Little Russians” ended as the massacre in Bucha was revealed in April 2022.  Putin did this.  His actions made absolutely certain that Ukrainians will always see themselves as distinct and separate from Russians.

Well done.

Take a DNA test, they get the same percentage eastern Slav. 

That is because Belarus-Russia-Ukraine are from the same origins. Differences in Russian Borscht Soup or Ukrainian Borscht soup or Russian/Ukrainian language are far more regionally than fundamental.  

No doubt their is a nationalist movement to create a separate identity, but that will inevitably lead to the deconstruction of Ukrainian culture and its replacement with more 'European' standards. 

They are already starting with Christmas, but again mindset is much more important than food or when you celebrate Christmas, and mindset will be the biggest change (if successful).  

I don't know if you've met Ukrainians and Russians separately, but their incredibly alike. Their outlook, physical appearance, moral upbringing, family units, etc. 

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11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Invaded Ukraine as a war of conquest and occupation.

Eastern Rome was over in 1453, btw, though with the exception of the City, quite some time before that, with the exception of the Church.

Western Rome was over even longer than that, except, of course, for Church.

There is a lot of history.

Yeah, and there are a lot of successor states to Western Rome, Frankia, etc. 

But all this is about the spread of western culture. Eastern or Orthodox culture which comes from Eastern Rome lives on just like it lived on through Roman successor states.  

Christian Imperialism (conversion of the pagans) is just a continuation of Roman 'civilizing' missions in Gaul and Germania. The biggest accomplishment of the Orthodox Church (Council of Nicaea) were the conversion of the Slavs. Most everything else went to the Latins.  

However, the east was badly damaged from the loss of Constantinople, which is really when Moscow laid claim to the title. Rome never fell to a none Christian state, or at least not one that didn't convert. 

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39 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Take a DNA test, they get the same percentage eastern Slav. 

That is because Belarus-Russia-Ukraine are from the same origins. Differences in Russian Borscht Soup or Ukrainian Borscht soup or Russian/Ukrainian language are far more regionally than fundamental.  

No doubt their is a nationalist movement to create a separate identity, but that will inevitably lead to the deconstruction of Ukrainian culture and its replacement with more 'European' standards. 

They are already starting with Christmas, but again mindset is much more important than food or when you celebrate Christmas, and mindset will be the biggest change (if successful).  

I don't know if you've met Ukrainians and Russians separately, but their incredibly alike. Their outlook, physical appearance, moral upbringing, family units, etc. 

Culture has very little to do with DNA… you realize that… right?  The brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine and the brutal Russian occupation of portions of Ukraine has galvanized Ukraine into a culture distinct from Russians in a way a hundred years of “Ukrainian Nationalist propoganda” never could.  

Once again I say to the moron (Putin) who claimed “Ukraine isn’t a real country”… well done… your actions have made Ukraine… very real.  

Confusion and defeat to the Russian military and the mercenaries employed by the Russian military!!! May sunflowers grow tall and strong in all Russian fields!!!

You idiots brought this shit on yourselves by allowing Putin to overreach this damn hard.

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47 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

They are already starting with Christmas, but again mindset is much more important than food or when you celebrate Christmas, and mindset will be the biggest change (if successful).  

I’m Orthodox Church in America.  Granted “autocephaly” from the Russian Patriarchate in 1971.  Christmas has been on December 25… for decades.  Welcome to the correct (Gregorian) Calander.

I’m in church multiple times a week with Russians and Ukrainians.  The Ukrainians are rightfully proud of their resistance to the Russian invasion.  The Russians are ashamed of the actions of their former homeland.

Defeat to Russia!!! Slava Ukraini!!!

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Culture has very little to do with DNA… you realize that… right?  The brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine and the brutal Russian occupation of portions of Ukraine has galvanized Ukraine into a culture distinct from Russians in a way a hundred years of “Ukrainian Nationalist propoganda” never could.  

Once again I say to the moron (Putin) who claimed “Ukraine isn’t a real country”… well done… your actions have made Ukraine… very real.  

Confusion and defeat to the Russian military and the mercenaries employed by the Russian military!!! May sunflowers grow tall and strong in all Russian fields!!!

You idiots brought this shit on yourselves by allowing Putin to overreach this damn hard.

They try to make it distinct through arbitrary changes like moving the date of Christmas or banning some Russian novel. 

But their culture is intrinsically connected to Russia, from Borscht soup down to their military doctrine. The only way to make it distinct is destroying it and replacing it with a pseudo-European 'liberal' identity which just means the end of Ukraine as a distinct cultural unit. 

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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m Orthodox Church in America.  Granted “autocephaly” from the Russian Patriarchate in 1971.  Christmas has been on December 25… for decades.  Welcome to the correct (Gregorian) Calander.

I’m in church multiple times a week with Russians and Ukrainians.  The Ukrainians are rightfully proud of their resistance to the Russian invasion.  The Russians are ashamed of the actions of their former homeland.

Defeat to Russia!!! Slava Ukraini!!!

Defeat of Russia will be the end of Ukraine.  

Russia is the military force that safe-guarded Ukraine Eastern Slav culture from Poles, Hungarians, Austrians, and Germans. 

Yeah they folded in some regional stuff like Borscht soup but the Soviets also went out of their way to make Ukraine a distinct political unit. 

With Russia gone, Ukraine will just be folded in to European 'liberalism'. 

Also, lol at the Gregorian calendar being correct. They're literally changing it in opposition to Russia, but all they have to replace with is more latin imports from the west. Same reason they cling to Bandera, their is no Ukrainian nationalism without Russian culture.  

Bandera was a fake who wanted to be a Nazi pawn and even they smacked him down. 

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6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So the thing Russia is trying to accomplish.

Russia has had close to five hundred years to do that. Instead they preserved the regional dialect. 

If there was no Russia, do you think the Austrian, German, Polish, or Hungarian masters would have done the same?  

As for today, Ukrainian nationalism is showing itself to be big threat, even if its a hybrid-fascist delusion baked up by a mentally ill person who though Ukrainians were pure slavs and Russians just Mongols (something they still say today). 

In the end, it will be like always, Russia will continue to promote 'friendly' Ukraine and try to separate them from the UPA types. Not gonna work in my opinion but that is their goal. They don't care to extinguish Ukrainian culture, just to make it Russia friendly. 

The west however absolutely want's to extinguish the Slavic culture for a more modern 'European" copy.  

Edited by butterweedstrover
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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not because it is doomed to be oppressed or miserable, but because it is an alternative to the western form of imperialism which focuses on a glutinous population with no sense of national purpose. 

Hey do you want you to look up Russia’s rate drug abuse, divorce, abortion, homelessness, child-abandonment, HIV prevalence?

Is gluttony here they don’t beat/kill the gays when they kiss in public?


 

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Defeat of Russia will be the end of Ukraine.  

Russia is the military force that safe-guarded Ukraine Eastern Slav culture from Poles, Hungarians, Austrians, and Germans. 

Boy howdy you should go tell some Ukrainians that right now, to their face, I suggest the most nationalistic. They must not know the nation murdering their men , raping their women and stealing their children are their saviors.

 

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6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Defeat of Russia will be the end of Ukraine.  

Russia is the military force that safe-guarded Ukraine Eastern Slav culture from Poles, Hungarians, Austrians, and Germans. 

Yeah they folded in some regional stuff like Borscht soup but the Soviets also went out of their way to make Ukraine a distinct political unit. 

With Russia gone, Ukraine will just be folded in to European 'liberalism'. 

Also, lol at the Gregorian calendar being correct. They're literally changing it in opposition to Russia, but all they have to replace with is more latin imports from the west. Same reason they cling to Bandera, their is no Ukrainian nationalism without Russian culture.  

Bandera was a fake who wanted to be a Nazi pawn and even they smacked him down. 

You mean the Poles… the Russians attempted to conquer in 1939 in conjunction with the Nazi’s leading to the Katyn forest massacre?

Yeah… you Russians are all about “defending oppressed cultures”… aren’t you?

https://www.archives.gov/research/foreign-policy/katyn-massacre

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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia has a close to five hundred years to do that. Instead they preserved the regional dialect. 

It’s more they failed. If you read their internal propaganda especially in the  beginning of the war complete and absolute assimilation is the only rational course of action if they get victory.

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

As for today, Ukrainian nationalism is showing itself to be big threat, even if its a hybrid-fascist delusion baked up by a mentally ill person who though Ukrainians were pure slavs and Russians just Mongols (something they still say today). 

Maybe the fascism is coming from the far right country started an invasion of its neighbor with a nazi slave army with the justification being blood right and in response to failure gets more assholish to sexual and gender minorities.

 

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4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

In the end, it will be like always, Russia will continue to promote 'friendly' Ukraine and try to separate them from the UPA types. Not gonna work in my opinion but that is their goal. They don't care to extinguish Ukrainian culture, just to make it Russia friendly.

Fuck… that… horseshit.  You don’t “make a culture Russia friendly” by brutalizing the people you claim you are “helping”… or were the people killed by the Russian Army in Bucha and all over Ukraine… “just a big misunderstanding”.  The Ukrainians mistook those “friendly bullets, grenades, artillery rounds, and missiles” for having lethal intent when they really weren’t ment that way… huh?

The thing that really floors me about you Russian apologists is the way you deploy “Abusive Spouse Logic” without an ounce of shame or self regard.  You Russians are killing Ukrianians because you love them so much… right?

https://www.pbs.org/video/crime-scene-bucha/

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