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Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?


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On 7/9/2023 at 10:08 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

He appears to admire that philosophy.

:facepalm:

Authoririans down the ages have. I even once read a paper that showed a lot of correlation between authoritarian/imperialistic states and the degree to which their prominent government buildings are meant to appear ~ Roman. Have you seen Germania?
 

So other things I’ve noticed on the way by; all western democracies are imperialist. Well, I’m Canadian, and we have conquered or tried to conquer exactly zero other states since we became a nation. So, that seemed odd. It was later clarified by the…and honestly, treading on the fringes of my core field, he offered the interpretation that Canada is geo-strategically indistinguishable from the United States. Lol. Well, we’ve said no to many American wars/invasions, we’ve even fought off 3 or 4 American invasions ourselves and we routinely disagree on geopolitical issues; for example Canada is decrying the export of cluster munitions to Ukraine and upheld the CCM.  
 

But he does have a point that Canadians and Americans mostly speak England’s tongue, and two of those three are or have been imperial, so I guess by his way of thinking Canada is actually being pretty disruptive in not inviting invasion from one of the imperialists and just recognizing that anyone who can conquer does. There is no other way of thinking. Or at least that’s what people in the acquisitive/expansionist countries always say. Whole swathes of civilization disagree on point and by example, but maybe they’re all geo-strategically indistinguishable from the nearest aggressor too. 

Edited by James Arryn
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15 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

So other things I’ve noticed on the way by; all western democracies are imperialist. Well, I’m Canadian, and we have conquered or tried to conquer exactly zero other states since we became a nation

Luckily the first nations had been conquered prior to Canadian statehood.

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12 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Luckily the first nations had been conquered prior to Canadian statehood.

Luckily or otherwise, our only territorial transactions have been to revert native control of a native-run territory the size of Mexico. Your assumption that we would have just acted as the British did is disputed most ways possible ( and sounds ‘vaguely’ like one of those kind of comments I just mentioned above). For example, at the end of each WW Canada had a top 5 military and top 3 navy in the world. And that’s when we went around establishing bases and ports across the planet to ‘protect our freedoms’, ie expand our acquisition capability, right? No, that’s when we disbanded to ~ pre-war levels in a matter of weeks. We have never shown the slightest interest in trying to expand, and polls and studies show Canadians almost universally find the idea childish and completely contrary to our vision of global relations and human rights. 

Edited by James Arryn
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Initially this was intended as mere quip. But since you insist...

...Canada became an indepedent state in 1931(?). Almost two hundred years after your southron neighbours. Fair chance you could've gone down a very similar path to your southern neighbours with certain practical restrictions. Having that heavily armed Empire/Hegemon at your border also kinda kills any imperial ambitions whatsoever in its tracks.

 

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9 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Initially this was intended as mere quip. But since you insist...

...Canada became an indepedent state in 1931(?). Almost two hundred years after your southron neighbours. Fair chance you could've gone down a very similar path to your southern neighbours with certain practical restrictions. Having that heavily armed Empire/Hegemon at your border also kinda kills any imperial ambitions whatsoever in its tracks.

 

1) 1867, de facto…1981 or similar de jure. 

2) Aside from again making the kind of comment I mentioned earlier, why is there a ‘fair chance’?
 

3) And superpowers were cheek to jowl in Europe; they expanded elsewhere. Most modern conquest has actually been non contiguous. 

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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Luckily or otherwise, our only territorial transactions have been to revert native control of a native-run territory the size of Mexico. Your assumption that we would have just acted as the British did is disputed most ways possible ( and sounds ‘vaguely’ like one of those kind of comments I just mentioned above). For example, at the end of each WW Canada had a top 5 military and top 3 navy in the world. And that’s when we went around establishing bases and ports across the planet to ‘protect our freedoms’, ie expand our acquisition capability, right? No, that’s when we disbanded to ~ pre-war levels in a matter of weeks. We have never shown the slightest interest in trying to expand, and polls and studies show Canadians almost universally find the idea childish and completely contrary to our vision of global relations and human rights. 

That's awfully kind of Canada, when previously the entire landmass of Canada (and Alaska and the USA) belonged to them. There is no interpretation of Canada (or the USA or Australia or New Zealand) as a nation today that can be divorced from its colonial and imperialist (and in some cases / places genocidal) origins. Whatever we have done to redress the past, it's not enough.

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1. That's why I put a question mark begind the 1931, because I wasn't sure where you'd place Canadian independence. 

2. More enlightened society. I view some things/actions as a result of their period. A lot of stuff that was okay in 1785 was no longer cool in 1867 and much less so in 1981. Going back to treatment of first Nation Canadians (and lack of conquest) wanna talk about Residential Schools?

3. Which unclaimed territories was there left to claim? The colonial powers more or less had divided the world among themselves. 

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6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ukrainians are dying in mass according to these updates. Not that you care, as long as it helps the west geopolitically.

This is a classic piece of concern-trolling.  Ukrainians are dying at the hands of an agressor who invaded their country.  The answer is for the aggressor to crawl back under the rock he emanated from, not for the victims of aggression to just roll over.

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17 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

1. That's why I put a question mark begind the 1931, because I wasn't sure where you'd place Canadian independence. 

2. More enlightened society. I view some things/actions as a result of their period. A lot of stuff that was okay in 1785 was no longer cool in 1867 and much less so in 1981. Going back to treatment of first Nation Canadians (and lack of conquest) wanna talk about Residential Schools?

3. Which unclaimed territories was there left to claim? The colonial powers more or less had divided the world among themselves. 

Pre-1940's, Right of Conquest was an accepted part of customary international law, now it isn't.  Canada was certainly put together by conquest, but I don't think that it can be said to have practised wars of conquest since independence (whether you make it 1967 or 1931).

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5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

1. That's why I put a question mark begind the 1931, because I wasn't sure where you'd place Canadian independence. 

2. More enlightened society. I view some things/actions as a result of their period. A lot of stuff that was okay in 1785 was no longer cool in 1867 and much less so in 1981. Going back to treatment of first Nation Canadians (and lack of conquest) wanna talk about Residential Schools?

3. Which unclaimed territories was there left to claim? The colonial powers more or less had divided the world among themselves. 

I think the two of you are largely arguing past each other. 

It is fair to say that you should judge any political entity for its record since it was independent and/or newly constituted.  Modern-day Indians are hardly responsible for what the British Raj did. 

Pre-Independence Canada was a colony and though it gained greater independence over time it did not have an independent foreign policy until the 20th century. 

That said, the claim that Canada did not engage in colonialism in the 20th century is a claim that proves little except that it was a large, sparely populated country whose dominion status within the British Empire meant that it had all the benefits of imperialism such as access to resources and trade.  Canadians did fight and die in Britain's wars including imperial ones such as the Boer wars. 

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13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

This is a surprise?  There is a reason the worst in the west love the Russian dictator.

Quit trying to change Russian culture! The worst of us must represent everyone!!! 

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NATO has completed its defensive restructuring and now has plans in place to defend against a Russian attack against the alliance, with plans in place to counter an invasion via the Arctic and North Atlantic, via the Baltics into Central Europe, or via the Mediterranean. NATO will be able to deploy 300,000 troops to a potential conflict zone within 30 days. Given Russia's current military resources, probably not an imminent concern.

France also continuing to step up by agreeing to send SCALP long-range cruise missiles to Ukraine (these are the same as Storm Shadow, which Ukraine is already using, they just don't have as memorable a name).

Meanwhile, it appears that Prigozhin and senior Wagner commanders met personally with Putin in the Kremlin just five days after his aborted not-coup. Incredible. It also sounds like it wasn't a peaceful meeting to kiss and make up, and since that meeting Russian state television has gone into overdrive trying to discredit Prigozhin. Meanwhile, Wagner seems to have returned to is standard bases and started recruiting as normal, but the state has been sporadically blocking its websites. Utterly bizarre.

Surovikin is still missing and his family has not been able to ascertain any information about his status. Gerasimov has resurfaced in some news footage, showing he's still in post.

On the front line, the Ukrainians have switched medium and long-range artillery strikes to the Tokmak axis, destroying air defence systems behind the defensive lines around Tokmak itself and focusing on Russian armour and infantry concentrations south of Robotyne, which seemed to be reinforcements for the front in that area, which heavy fighting is continuing. They also hit a heavy concentration in Chkalova, SE (almost E) of Hulyaipole, trying to widen the contact front along more of the SW-central S front.

The Russians have been trying to achieve a breakthrough towards Lyman but have been held up by heavy defences at Tors'ke, just in front of Zarichne. The Russians mounted another assault today but have been repelled with heavy losses. Ukrainian counter-attacks along the Lyman front have been launched from the south and north, with the aim of relieving pressure on the centre.

At Bakhmut the Russians mounted a counter-attack on the Klischiivka heights, which Ukraine recaptured a few days ago, but were repelled.

The Ukrainians also hit and destroyed a complete S-400 battery, including missile, launcher and Grave Stone radar system. Very expensive, and fairly rare (the Russians have been sensibly keeping their S-400s well back, and they're pretty good at hitting even small targets, although watching them fire a very expensive S-400 missile to take out a $500 spotter drone is amusing).

Ukraine has also been making strides with drone-based mine removal, which they want to push forwards to replace their sappers having to go in and do things by hand (whilst under fire). Obviously they need to push forwards the idea of identifying mines in fields, which is not as easy as when they're left on the top of the road like this:

 

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15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

France also continuing to step up by agreeing to send SCALP long-range cruise missiles to Ukraine (these are the same as Storm Shadow, which Ukraine is already using, they just don't have as memorable a name).

BTW, the AMX-10s are operational - they were actually delivered in about 4 months in the end (delivery started as early as February, but I understand it took longer for them to be operational).
The Ukrainian military finds the armor a bit weak though, and prefers the Oshkosh.

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