Jump to content

Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?


Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nordic countries share a culture and people, they don’t have revisionist Nazis in their population who think Icelanders are ethnically superior to Norwegians, because that would be a joke. 

Hold on… are you saying that if Iceland did this (claimed some Nordic superiority as you allege Ukrainians are doing) Norway would be justified in launching an invasion and annexation of Iceland?

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strange.

Putin's Russia - and Putin has been calling all the shots that matter in Russia for decades - is utterly corrupt from top to bottom. This monumental corruption was directly responsible for the failure of Russia's initial attack. The ONLY way to remedy corruption on this scale is to replace, well, everybody, and that is not going to come about internally. Hence, Russia will remain corrupt. This automatically means that nobody else can trust them.

Second, when Russia attacked - call it a year and a half ago - the Ukrainian army was swamped with volunteers - people defending their homes. There are conscripts now; however, as I understand it, the overwhelming majority of the Ukrainian army is composed of volunteers.

 

Compare and contrast that with the Russian situation - when Putin ordered a mobilization, literally hundreds of thousands of people went into hiding or skipped the country rather than join the military. Folks in the outlying provinces where most of these recruits came from got highly ticked off. About the only actual volunteers on the Russian side are the ones recruited from prison.

This, right here, tells me that regardless of what Russia thinks, the Ukraine populace perceives itself as an independent entity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The question is, WHY does the west want to ‘shepherd’ Ukraine, a country with little value to them or the EU? Why are they so obsessed with Ukraine? 
 

Because of Russia, so Russia can be destroyed.

No one wants to destroy Russia. We want Putin, a clear war criminal, shattered and thrown into the wind so Russia can hopefully thrive as a free and open democracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

2. It’s good you see Russians and Ukrainians have the same tactics. Because they are not like you, they are Rus. When you call Russians ‘orcs’ for being not part of the civilized Europe, you are also calling Ukrainians orcs. 

The orcs were once elves. They bad now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No one wants to destroy Russia. We want Putin, a clear war criminal, shattered and thrown into the wind so Russia can hopefully thrive as a free and open democracy.

Oh noes, you used the d-word! That's imperialism! Worse than conquest!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

That's not the only claim you made. 

You said billions were poured in by the west to create these militias that you say exist. Where's the proof here? 
 

Arms get spread around, billions to the military go to hard right militias. As for the right sector, who funded them? 

37 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

You say that the West spent billions supporting an education to make the Russians made out to be mongols. Where's the proof here? 


 

It’s in public schools now. I imagine western funds meant to uphold the economy goes to schools.

 

37 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

 

So this is the Azov stuff again. So your proof of billions of investment from the West is an entirely homegrown subset of folks in the Ukraine which has already been disavowed by the official government several times and does not have actual political power. 
 

‘Homegrown’ lol. Azov is from Russia, the founder was Russian. 

37 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Again, always appreciate you providing links that completely negate your point!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The question is, WHY does the west want to ‘shepherd’ Ukraine, a country with little value to them or the EU? Why are they so obsessed with Ukraine? 
 

Because of Russia, so Russia can be destroyed.

So you have decided not to address the actual points, but made Ukraine's struggle for sovereignty about Russia, which is not in the slightest an Imperialistic position to take. 

Again Ukraine is not (a part of) Russia. They are an indepedent state, they made a decission to move away from the Russia's sphere of influence. Russia responded by annexing Crimea, and then send poorly disguised troops (the infamous little green men) to start a hidden war in Ukraine. When that hidden war did not yield the results Putin wanted Russia launched a full scale invasion, which Ukrainians managed to fight back, and then the west finally decided to deliver arms and support Ukraine's right as an independent nation. 

If Russia were to get destroyed in the process, then that'd be entirely a demise of its own making. Russia is not a victim in this, Ukraine is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

You keep saying this like it matters or should matter in the slightest. (you also contradict yourself by saying that Russians are not one single ethnic group but a whole bunch of them, but your lack of internal consistency isn't the main point on this one).

Why does it matter if they are the same ethnic composition? I mean, the same is true for the US and Canada; does the US have a right to invade Canada? Does Canada have a right to invade the US? 

 

Russian the empire compromises territories fill with minorities. Rus, the people Russia is named after, come from Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. They are and always have been the same country, German puppet states not withstanding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Strange.

Putin's Russia - and Putin has been calling all the shots that matter in Russia for decades - is utterly corrupt from top to bottom. This monumental corruption was directly responsible for the failure of Russia's initial attack. The ONLY way to remedy corruption on this scale is to replace, well, everybody, and that is not going to come about internally. Hence, Russia will remain corrupt. This automatically means that nobody else can trust them.

Second, when Russia attacked - call it a year and a half ago - the Ukrainian army was swamped with volunteers - people defending their homes. There are conscripts now; however, as I understand it, the overwhelming majority of the Ukrainian army is composed of volunteers.

 

Compare and contrast that with the Russian situation - when Putin ordered a mobilization, literally hundreds of thousands of people went into hiding or skipped the country rather than join the military. Folks in the outlying provinces where most of these recruits came from got highly ticked off. About the only actual volunteers on the Russian side are the ones recruited from prison.

This, right here, tells me that regardless of what Russia thinks, the Ukraine populace perceives itself as an independent entity.

The alternative to Putin is not a liberal puppet state, but someone like Prigozhin or Lukashenko who will destroy the corrupt mafia as Stalin once did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So you have decided not to address the actual points, but made Ukraine's struggle for sovereignty about Russia, which is not in the slightest an Imperialistic position to take. 

Again Ukraine is not (a part of) Russia. They are an indepedent state, they made a decission to move away from the Russia's sphere of influence. Russia responded by annexing Crimea, and then send poorly disguised troops (the infamous little green men) to start a hidden war in Ukraine. When that hidden war did not yield the results Putin wanted Russia launched a full scale invasion, which Ukrainians managed to fight back, and then the west finally decided to deliver arms and support Ukraine's right as an independent nation. 

If Russia were to get destroyed in the process, then that'd be entirely a demise of its own making. Russia is not a victim in this, Ukraine is. 

They did not make any decisions. Western governments helped overthrow the system, invest in propaganda, arm Nazis, and lied to the people about their agreement and Russia’s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Arms get spread around, billions to the military go to hard right militias. As for the right sector, who funded them? 

You tell me! It's your completely specious claim after all. As a counterexample all of the Western military aid that was sent to Ukraine prior to 2022 was Western-built weaponry, and none of that ended up in Azov hands. Azov was using entirely Russian-built weapons throughout their use. 

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s in public schools now. I imagine western funds meant to uphold the economy goes to schools.

You 'imagine'? But you don't know? Well, that's cool. I'm sure that's a very good way to base an entire ideology on.

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

‘Homegrown’ lol. Azov is from Russia, the founder was Russian. 

But wait, isn't Russia Ukraine, and Ukraine Russia? So Azov is Ukraine!

 

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian the empire compromises territories fill with minorities. Rus, the people Russia is named after, come from Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. They are and always have been the same country, German puppet states not withstanding.

So...Ukraine isn't Russian then? 

Also, here's an interesting idea for you - things actually do change over time. Russia wanting Ukraine to be part of Russia because they were in the past is just as legitimate as Mongolia taking over most of Eastern Russia.

Ukraine having their own distinct language and culture makes them distinct from Russia regardless of genetic purity, just as much as Norway/Sweden/Denmark are distinct countries despite being almost precisely the same ethnic background genetically. The notion that genetics determines nationality is a very, very peculiar one. 

Ultimately, Ukraine decided in 1991 to be an independent country. Regardless of any other history that means that Russia's invasion is an actual invasion; Russia does not get to just choose when someone is independent when it suits them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian the empire compromises territories fill with minorities. Rus, the people Russia is named after, come from Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. They are and always have been the same country, German puppet states not withstanding.

Yeah… no.  Catherine the Great conquered and forced Ukraine into the Ruassian empire during the 18th Century.  Ukrainians never gave up a sense of distinction and difference… or are you going to advocate that Ireland is really part of the UK and the UK should be able to forcibly reincorporate Ireland into the UK?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Ukraine having their own distinct language and culture makes them distinct from Russia regardless of genetic purity, just as much as Norway/Sweden/Denmark are distinct countries despite being almost precisely the same ethnic background genetically. The notion that genetics determines nationality is a very, very peculiar one. 

Ultimately, Ukraine decided in 1991 to be an independent country. Regardless of any other history that means that Russia's invasion is an actual invasion; Russia does not get to just choose when someone is independent when it suits them.

Word.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on. It matters very to the 'west' that Ukraine grows, or grew until that monster putin screwed it all up, a great deal of what so many nations in Africa, even South America, and places in Europe eat. Vast swathes of famine throughout the continents like Africa (where, by the way Russia is determined to grab everything that China has grabbed, etc.) are NOT in the interest of the 'west' no matter how politically cynically decisions are made by anybody.  It matters very much to us all that Ukraine provides easy access to the Black Sea the 'west', for everything, and particularly oil.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Let me guess, you’re against a ceasefire and want untrained conscripts thrown against Russia defense lines.

You betcha I don't want any ceasefire with the Scythians and want to throw all the inhabitants in the region from the era circa 7th BC under the age of 70 against both the Scythians and Persia!  When nothing remotely like russians or russia existed and wouldn't for nearly 1500 years.

Good grief, you responded with this to a post about a book which is the history of Scythians, Persians, Greeks and Romans? This is looking more and more like a chatbot loosed by russian interests doesn't it? -- or else utter terror that the history of the region prior to the muscovy dukedom be even embedded in a book that is discussed.

Edited by Zorral
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You betcha I don't want any ceasefire with the Scythians and want to throw all the inhabitants in the region from the era circe 7th C under the age of 70 against both the Scythians and Persia! 

Good grief, you responded with this to a post about a book which is the history of Scythians, Persians, Greeks and Romans? This is looking more and more like a chatbot loosed by russian interests doesn't it? -- or else utter terror that the history of the region prior to the muscovy dukedom be even embedded in a book that is discussed 

It’s Jackson Hinkle…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...