Jump to content

Cersei was right to kill Robert


Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You missed my point entirely. I am not saying Robert was responsible because he didn’t know the sons were his. He did not leave a secure throne for his sons. At all. He bankrupted the 7 kingdoms, went into huge debt to the Lannisters and also gave then tons of positions and power (probably because of said debt) and had 0 relationship with his sons including not preparing them for leadership positions at all. Renly was terrified of Cersei and the Lannisters and ran before Robert’s death and yes, that is partially on Robert. Securing 1. A relationship with Renly, would have changed Renly’s actions. 2. He didn’t know at all that Cersei was killing his children and was probably a threat ro his brothers. He did not see the Lannisters as a threat at all. He’s the King, bro. That’s part of his job. He is supposed to be on top of that. He is supposed to make a secure Kingdom, but particularly for his sons and brothers and other loved ones. He had had eyes completely shut to everything. Robert was a terrible King and even he knew it. And yes, when a new Dynasty takes over, if that dynasty is to succeed they need a strong King (which was not Robert). Setting up new systems of government is basic (he didn’t do it). Separating yourself from the old ruling party is also basic (He didn’t do it). Listen, I am a history major. Robert did not do so many basic things needed to prevent war following his death. Nothing. He was a lazy oaf who treated Kingship like a hobby rather than his duty/job. Heck, he got hands he trusted, then ignored literally everything they told him. You know why Ned didn’t tell Robert about the the kids not being his early on? Because he did’t trust him, because he was not doing the just thing and repeatedly averting his eyes from issues. I assume that is the same reason Jon Arryn and Stannis also didn’t go to Robert. That’s…on…Robert: 

In conclusion, Robert lazing around and doing nothing is partially directly responsible for what led to war. He is the flipping King. He is supposed to do King shit, not drink, have sex, and go hunting. He had a responsibility and he was TERRIBLE at it. He bankrupted the realm for god’s sake. In a historical sense, weak Kings often were followed by wars of succession for a reason (and yes Robert is a weak King). 

Using the quote function is difficult on this site.

Whether or not Robert beggared the realm is questionable. Tyrion suggests that Littlefinger had a hand in it and what LF was doing was beyond even his comprehension. But I'll grant that Robert had final responsibility since he was the king.

 

Quote

"Within three years of coming to court he had been made master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had under his predecessor... through the crown's debt had grown vast as we... A master juggler was Petyr Baelish."

The crown wasn't just in debt. Their revenue had increased tenfold. Robert also regularly paid the Iron Bank, which is why they were happy to lend him money until Cersei refused.

 

Quote

The banker pressed his fingers together. "It would not be proper for me to discuss Lord Stannis' indebtedness or lack of same. As to King Robert... it was indeed our pleasure to assist His Grace in his need. For so long as Robert lived, all was well. Now, however, the Iron Throne has ceased all repayment."

Could the Lannisters truly be so foolish?

But that's besides the point, as being in debt wasn't the cause of the war. The cause of the war was the fact that Robert's "children" weren't his "children". That's something that Robert had no choice in and no responsibility for. The decision was made by Cersei and Jaime behind his back.

As to Robert not having a relationship with his "son"... I don't know that this is the case. In one of the very first chapters that we see, the men go hunting. We're told that Robert brought Joffrey with him riding. In fact, we're told that the only reason Robb was allowed to go with the men, was because Robert brought Joffrey with him. Meaning that Ned was going to leave him behind (not a knock against Ned... he's a great father).

 

Quote

Prince Joffrey rode with his father, so Robb had been allowed to join the hunters as well. Uncle Benjen, Jory, Theon Greyjoy, Ser Rodrik, and even the queen’s funny little brother had all ridden out with them.”

Later, when Joffrey has his little outburst at the Small Council meeting, Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei talk about disciplining Joffrey. Cersei mentions that Robert used to say things... indicating that he tried to talk to Joffrey.

 

Quote

“Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I’d allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I’d kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things …”

"It appears things needed to be said." Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. "Go."

Now, being 100% fair, I will note that she says Robert ignored Joffrey, but that's not abnormal in the setting. Ned came to view Jon Arryn as a father figure. Arguably more than his own father, because he was fostered out. The same is true for Robert. Often, children in this world are primarily cared for by Septa's, Septon's, maester's and masters-at-arms. At least until they're older.

It also says that he wanted to discipline him with corporal punishment (normal in Westeros as both Theon and Duncan are beaten as children). She goes on to say that Robert tried talking to him and Tywin agrees that Joffrey needed more of it. Joffrey was probably just a bad seed. Robert probably played a role. Jaime probably played a bigger role and Cersei probably played the biggest role of all, but there's good reason to think that he was already something of a bad egg. Most notably is that cat incident. Cersei calls it mischief, but it was much more than that. He cut open a pregnant cat and dug around for the kittens. That's not normal behaviour. It's monstrous.

The rest of the stuff can just be applied to Ned. Even if you think Robert was a terrible King, that doesn't mean that he's responsible for the war. Robert gave Ned full power. Had he taken Renly up on his offer, he could have ended the war in a stroke. If he'd taken up Littlefinger on his offer, he'd either have been betrayed or ended the war in a stroke. I still wouldn't blame him for the war, even though Ned had ultimate authority even greater than Cersei or Joffrey. It's kind of funny, because I often see new readers/watchers go through AGoT and blame Ned for how things turned out, because they feel that he was weak or incompetent. I've always said that was unfair.

As to Robert's relationship with his brothers, there's no evidence that the distance came from him. George R.R. Martin describes Robert as "dutiful" toward his brothers and says that he loved them. Renly was just on his own mission.

Ned didn't go to Robert, because he was afraid that Robert would kill them. Jon Arryn didn't go to Robert, because they didn't feel that they had proof yet. But on the case of Jon Arryn, this would be like blaming him for the war, because he chose Cersei to be the next Queen. It doesn't make sense. If the person sets events in motion that are obviously going to lead to war, I get it. Viserys named Rhaenyra the heir and then had a second son. IIRC, he didn't do away with male primogeniture. He just chose to have her succeed int his one instance. Robert had no role in creating the situation that led to the war. That decision was made by Cersei and Jaime.

To sum it up, you can blame Robert for a lot of things, but the war was on his wife, her brother lover, Varys and Littlefinger.

Edited by Lee-Sensei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey was probably just a bad seed. Robert probably played a role. Jaime probably played a bigger role and Cersei probably played the biggest role of all, but there's good reason to think that he was already something of a bad egg. 

Joffrey does have issues, however unless you are a licensed therapist, I doubt you can determine whether that was predetermined or more a product of his environment. I know in most cases though...it's environmental. Yes, there are easier and more difficult children to raise, but mostly kids want and need guidance from adults. Joffrey got terrible guidance in so many different ways. Now, on one point, I agree with you. Cersei was not a good parent at all. She placed her issues on her children, and was often projecting her own desires or hatreds onto said children. With Joffrey, he could do no wrong, because he was "her" in her mind. The male version of herself that she wanted to be. Because of this, she often ignores negative behavior and almost never punishes him. It is difficult to say her relationship with Myrcella because we don't see it much, but Tommen get the exact opposite. Everything Tommen does is wrong. She projects negative things on him constantly [kind of like she used to project on Tyrion]. She also compares him negatively to Joffrey...saying something negative about him no matter what he does. Anyways, back to Joffrey. 

Joffrey's impact from this sort of parenting is to be increasingly selfish. Cersei refuses to call him wrong, and he keeps getting more and more selfish and protecting him from the consequences of these negative actions. However, let's move onto Robert. See Robert is ALSO his parent. You can say that in Westeros parents aren't as involved, but we see several cases where real parenting happens. Both Eddard and Catelyn show signs of actual hands on parenting, and I think you can see the positive results in the way their children act. As well, Catelyn herself clearly has a close relationship with her uncle, who I think acted kind of like a mother to her [yes, I am speaking of Brynden] and also gave her advice and hands on parenting. We don't see Jon Arryn directly with Eddard or Robert, but I think he did do some sort of hands on parenting with them as well. From Stannis's perspective, we see Maester Cressen acting like a parent, and from Bran's, Maester Luwin doing some parenting. Joffrey is 12 at the start of the series, tell me one case where...anyone parents him. Maybe Tyrion..who slaps him repeatedly. I don't know that I would call that parenting, but that is the closest we get. Robert is completely absent. Saying that ...Robert sometimes punished him....is not really parenting. Occasional punishment is like 1960s parenting that caused a ton of issues in my parents generation which they then passed on to us. Robet is simpley, absent. He doesn't show him a good example. He doesn't include him most of the time. He doesn't really...even speak to him. He says directly to Eddard that he thinks something is wrong with Joffrey...yet he does nothing to actually involve himself in day to day parenting. He leaves everything to Cersei. 

Listen, I do not think we can say Joffrey is 100% some hopeless bad seed, because we don't ever see a result of real parenting on him. We see very little push back to put him into a position in which he could be parented. Heck, Robb gets parenting constantly and he is 3 years Joffrey's senior. We see Jon get parented by some older members of teh Wall. Arya from Eddard and Syrio Forrell. Sansa from Petyr [even if that is mostly gross, he does actually try to teach her things]. Dany gets advice from Jorah and Barristan. Almost every other character is seen getting advice from elders....Joffrey is treated like a lost cause from the moment he is introduced. Honestly...do any of the older people ever actually treat Joffrey like he is a boy who might need their advice..or more of a tool, a monster, or someone to be controlled like a piece on a board. Anyways, this was way too long, but I think Joffrey .....could have had potential to be something else, I think you are wrong about him being just a bad apple, and Robert is just as responsible as Cersei...as he is his parent too. You know, on a personal note. My mom was actually there, and no matter what, that makes her a better parent than my dad, who was not. And yes, he did show upt to punish me, that wasn't parenting. He failed on so many levels, but the main one is he never actually treated me as someone to teach, someone to understand, someone to try to help or give advice to; but rather as something to control/put back in line. Something that should be raised by their mother unless they are being badly behaved and then he can step in to remedy that negative behavior by scaring me. That is horrible parenting, and IT'S MORE THAN ROBERT gave to Joffrey. 

17 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

To sum it up, you can blame Robert for a lot of things, but the war was on his wife, her brother lover, Varys and Littlefinger.

I don't want to go point by point. Essentially, I just disagree with you. I already made my points, and I don't think your points here actually refuted mine. Let's just agree to disagree. I do think Robert is partially responsible for the war, and in fact one of the biggest pieces of blame should be handed to him [Although one small thing I do agree with you: Cersei was a bigger piece, in fact the biggest piece goes to Cersei and Littlefinger..maybe 50% of the blame to them, with the other pieces divided among a bunch of others, with Robert being a bigger piece than a lot of others. Actually though, I think Varys was trying to postpone the war for a time...so as to the immediate war, I think he was trying to pump the breaks, although perhaps he could be tied with Tywin, Stannis, Renly, and Robert in blame. I'd put them on like the next tier after Cersei/Littlefinger maybe..maybe with Lysa too..her actions with Tyrion really pushed toward war, and if they had just traded Tyrion for Eddard..it might have kind of prematurely ended the war..at least the Stark-Lannister part of the war]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Joffrey does have issues, however unless you are a licensed therapist, I doubt you can determine whether that was predetermined or more a product of his environment. I know in most cases though...it's environmental. Yes, there are easier and more difficult children to raise, but mostly kids want and need guidance from adults. Joffrey got terrible guidance in so many different ways. Now, on one point, I agree with you. Cersei was not a good parent at all. She placed her issues on her children, and was often projecting her own desires or hatreds onto said children. With Joffrey, he could do no wrong, because he was "her" in her mind. The male version of herself that she wanted to be. Because of this, she often ignores negative behavior and almost never punishes him. It is difficult to say her relationship with Myrcella because we don't see it much, but Tommen get the exact opposite. Everything Tommen does is wrong. She projects negative things on him constantly [kind of like she used to project on Tyrion]. She also compares him negatively to Joffrey...saying something negative about him no matter what he does. Anyways, back to Joffrey. 

Joffrey's impact from this sort of parenting is to be increasingly selfish. Cersei refuses to call him wrong, and he keeps getting more and more selfish and protecting him from the consequences of these negative actions. However, let's move onto Robert. See Robert is ALSO his parent. You can say that in Westeros parents aren't as involved, but we see several cases where real parenting happens. Both Eddard and Catelyn show signs of actual hands on parenting, and I think you can see the positive results in the way their children act. As well, Catelyn herself clearly has a close relationship with her uncle, who I think acted kind of like a mother to her [yes, I am speaking of Brynden] and also gave her advice and hands on parenting. We don't see Jon Arryn directly with Eddard or Robert, but I think he did do some sort of hands on parenting with them as well. From Stannis's perspective, we see Maester Cressen acting like a parent, and from Bran's, Maester Luwin doing some parenting. Joffrey is 12 at the start of the series, tell me one case where...anyone parents him. Maybe Tyrion..who slaps him repeatedly. I don't know that I would call that parenting, but that is the closest we get. Robert is completely absent. Saying that ...Robert sometimes punished him....is not really parenting. Occasional punishment is like 1960s parenting that caused a ton of issues in my parents generation which they then passed on to us. Robet is simpley, absent. He doesn't show him a good example. He doesn't include him most of the time. He doesn't really...even speak to him. He says directly to Eddard that he thinks something is wrong with Joffrey...yet he does nothing to actually involve himself in day to day parenting. He leaves everything to Cersei. 

Listen, I do not think we can say Joffrey is 100% some hopeless bad seed, because we don't ever see a result of real parenting on him. We see very little push back to put him into a position in which he could be parented. Heck, Robb gets parenting constantly and he is 3 years Joffrey's senior. We see Jon get parented by some older members of teh Wall. Arya from Eddard and Syrio Forrell. Sansa from Petyr [even if that is mostly gross, he does actually try to teach her things]. Dany gets advice from Jorah and Barristan. Almost every other character is seen getting advice from elders....Joffrey is treated like a lost cause from the moment he is introduced. Honestly...do any of the older people ever actually treat Joffrey like he is a boy who might need their advice..or more of a tool, a monster, or someone to be controlled like a piece on a board. Anyways, this was way too long, but I think Joffrey .....could have had potential to be something else, I think you are wrong about him being just a bad apple, and Robert is just as responsible as Cersei...as he is his parent too. You know, on a personal note. My mom was actually there, and no matter what, that makes her a better parent than my dad, who was not. And yes, he did show upt to punish me, that wasn't parenting. He failed on so many levels, but the main one is he never actually treated me as someone to teach, someone to understand, someone to try to help or give advice to; but rather as something to control/put back in line. Something that should be raised by their mother unless they are being badly behaved and then he can step in to remedy that negative behavior by scaring me. That is horrible parenting, and IT'S MORE THAN ROBERT gave to Joffrey. 

I don't want to go point by point. Essentially, I just disagree with you. I already made my points, and I don't think your points here actually refuted mine. Let's just agree to disagree. I do think Robert is partially responsible for the war, and in fact one of the biggest pieces of blame should be handed to him [Although one small thing I do agree with you: Cersei was a bigger piece, in fact the biggest piece goes to Cersei and Littlefinger..maybe 50% of the blame to them, with the other pieces divided among a bunch of others, with Robert being a bigger piece than a lot of others. Actually though, I think Varys was trying to postpone the war for a time...so as to the immediate war, I think he was trying to pump the breaks, although perhaps he could be tied with Tywin, Stannis, Renly, and Robert in blame. I'd put them on like the next tier after Cersei/Littlefinger maybe..maybe with Lysa too..her actions with Tyrion really pushed toward war, and if they had just traded Tyrion for Eddard..it might have kind of prematurely ended the war..at least the Stark-Lannister part of the war]

I think the problem here is that you assume that Robert had no interactions with Joffrey at all. We hear from Cersei that he was distant, but that he did try talking to him. We also know that Joffrey was brought with Robert on both of his hunting trips. That was the only reason Robb was allowed to come at Winterfell. Because Robert took the initiative to bring him along. Robert isn't a PoV character and he dies in the first books, but we know that he cared about his children. So at the end of the day, Robert had no role in Joffrey's creation and was the only one that tried to discipline or talk to Joffrey. And for the record, when it comes to Tyrion and Robert hitting Joffrey, this is normal in Westeros. Even Ned does it. So does Balon and Arstan. Theon remembers getting beaten as a child for jumping down the stairs and accidentally bumping into Old Nan. Duncan remembers Arstan beating him for stealing a pie (that he claims he never stole). Robert hits Joffrey for mutilating a pregnant cat. Theon is especially interesting. We know that Theon has a darker side and yet, he never shows any signs of it as a child. Jumping down the stairs is normal for kids. Stealing a pie is normal for kids. Cutting open pregnant cats is not normal. It's the sign of a sociopath.

You talk about how Joffrey got no advice, but how do we even know that? Again, Cersei says Robert would say things in the context of disciplining Joffrey and Tywin agrees that things needed to be said. If I were to attribute guilt for Joffrey's behaviour beyond his innate cruelty. I'd give about 60% to Cersei. 30% to Jaime. His real father. Robert get's 10% at most.

It's wild that Jaime get's no blame for the war from you and much less than the Baratheon brothers or even Tywin, when this all started with him knocking up his sister and pushing Bran out the window.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It's wild that Jaime get's no blame for the war from you and much less than the Baratheon brothers or even Tywin, when this all started with him knocking up his sister and pushing Bran out the window.

I said there was a whole lot of others with some blame. I didn't list every single person, as that would be pointless. However, Jaime should have been in the primary group actually, lol. Pushing Bran out the window was the primary catalyst for the war actually, so yeah, Jaime should be with Petyr and Cersei in the top slot actually. He also aggravates it when he attacks Eddard in the streets of King's Landing just to add to his role. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/27/2023 at 8:26 AM, Alester Florent said:

Secondly, I'm not sure to what extent I actually believe Cersei in all of this.

Seconded.

I don't really believe Cersei either.

I find it very hard to believe that Cersei had been repeatedly raped by Robert at length only for Jaime to not find out about it.

I mean come on. He was chomping at the bit to kill Robert at Darry over the whole Nymeria/Joffrey incident. Not only was that before Arya was found and Lady killed in Nymeria's place, but the whole Nymeria situation had absolutely NOTHING to do with Robert.

Jaime hates rape.

If Jaime found out that Robert was regularly raping Cersei (just like how he found out Aerys was regularly raping Rhaella...there's no way he wasn't going to find out if it was happening), he would've found a way to kill Robert. Even if he couldn't pull it off, the fact that the love of his life is getting raped by a man that he actively dislikes is something that he would think about.

But it's something that Jaime never thinks about it?

The closest thing that we get to a case of Robert raping Cersei is...

  • the time that Robert cracks that lame joke about rough sex and Cersei responds by knocking out his tooth
  • the time when Jaime had to go find someone to perform an abortion for Cersei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Seconded.

I don't really believe Cersei either.

I find it very hard to believe that Cersei had been repeatedly raped by Robert at length only for Jaime to not find out about it.

I mean come on. He was chomping at the bit to kill Robert at Darry over the whole Nymeria/Joffrey incident. Not only was that before Arya was found and Lady killed in Nymeria's place, but the whole Nymeria situation had absolutely NOTHING to do with Robert.

Jaime hates rape.

If Jaime found out that Robert was regularly raping Cersei (just like how he found out Aerys was regularly raping Rhaella...there's no way he wasn't going to find out if it was happening), he would've found a way to kill Robert. Even if he couldn't pull it off, the fact that the love of his life is getting raped by a man that he actively dislikes is something that he would think about.

But it's something that Jaime never thinks about it?

The closest thing that we get to a case of Robert raping Cersei is...

  • the time that Robert cracks that lame joke about rough sex and Cersei responds by knocking out his tooth
  • the time when Jaime had to go find someone to perform an abortion for Cersei

No not this again, this happened years ago on this site. Robert raped Cersei. Period. Stop. Stop stop stop stop stop stop. Stop. Rape is not only like roughly forcing yourself on someone. Raping can be coercive rather than violent. Stop. Raping can just being Cersei saying stop and Robert not stopping. Raping can be Cersei saying no and Robert not taking that no to mean no. None of that has to be LOUD enough for Jaime to hear it. Stop. Stop. Just stop. Seriously, I will report you if you continue down this line of thinking. Enough is enough. This isn't an okay line of thinking and it is the EXACT same way people go about disbelieving victims in real life. Stop. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/6/2023 at 11:07 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I said there was a whole lot of others with some blame. I didn't list every single person, as that would be pointless. However, Jaime should have been in the primary group actually, lol. Pushing Bran out the window was the primary catalyst for the war actually, so yeah, Jaime should be with Petyr and Cersei in the top slot actually. He also aggravates it when he attacks Eddard in the streets of King's Landing just to add to his role. 

Fair enough.

 

23 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Seconded.

I don't really believe Cersei either.

I find it very hard to believe that Cersei had been repeatedly raped by Robert at length only for Jaime to not find out about it.

I mean come on. He was chomping at the bit to kill Robert at Darry over the whole Nymeria/Joffrey incident. Not only was that before Arya was found and Lady killed in Nymeria's place, but the whole Nymeria situation had absolutely NOTHING to do with Robert.

Jaime hates rape.

If Jaime found out that Robert was regularly raping Cersei (just like how he found out Aerys was regularly raping Rhaella...there's no way he wasn't going to find out if it was happening), he would've found a way to kill Robert. Even if he couldn't pull it off, the fact that the love of his life is getting raped by a man that he actively dislikes is something that he would think about.

But it's something that Jaime never thinks about it?

The closest thing that we get to a case of Robert raping Cersei is...

  • the time that Robert cracks that lame joke about rough sex and Cersei responds by knocking out his tooth
  • the time when Jaime had to go find someone to perform an abortion for Cersei

Yeah. I used to take it for granted for granted that Robert raped her, but I think I was just falling in to other peoples' paces. Cersei directly compares Robert to Osney Kettleblack. He pressures her into sex, but I don't really consider that rape in the same way that Gregor Clegane raped the inn keepers daughter. Ultimately, she gives in. Sex=power for her and it was probably just part of being Queen. I'd be surprised if George saw it differently.Begrudging consent is consent.

And yes. If Jaime knew Robert was raping Cersei, it would be massively out of character for him to not try and kill the guy. Arys and Barristan are both PoV characters that spend time around him and never mention it either. Barristan does call Robert a good knight though (part of a knights vows is to protect women) and Arys calls Robert a good man, even though he knows that Robert and Cersei's marriage was deeply troubled.

Edited by Lee-Sensei
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2023 at 4:57 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

No not this again, this happened years ago on this site. Robert raped Cersei. Period. Stop. Stop stop stop stop stop stop. Stop. Rape is not only like roughly forcing yourself on someone. Raping can be coercive rather than violent. Stop. Raping can just being Cersei saying stop and Robert not stopping. Raping can be Cersei saying no and Robert not taking that no to mean no. None of that has to be LOUD enough for Jaime to hear it. Stop. Stop. Just stop. Seriously, I will report you if you continue down this line of thinking. Enough is enough. This isn't an okay line of thinking and it is the EXACT same way people go about disbelieving victims in real life. Stop. 

I don't think a discussion of the ins and outs of rape (no pun intended) is useful or healthy.

But I do think it's worth contextualising it for the characters in question. I doubt Westeros has any real concept of marital rape: a husband is entitled to sex with his wife as of right. Some of the more honourable characters might object if there's actual violence involved, or if it seems to be deliberately cruel (Aegon IV/Naerys, for instance), but the basic principle of Robert coming to Cersei's room and having sex with her when she'd rather he didn't is not something I suspect many in Westeros would object to - indeed Cersei herself might not find this sufficiently objectionable in principle that she feels the need to complain to Jaime about it.

Similarly, Westeros will almost certainly lack any concept of affirmative or enthusiastic consent which some try to apply to mdoern sexual encounters.

And that's obviously leaving aside the unreliable-narrator element of Cersei's memory, or any question over how often this actually happened. In AGoT, Robert complains to Ned about the low quality of his marital sex life. Cersei reminisces about deliberately finishing Robert off in other ways, suggesting she retained an element of control even on the occasions he did turn up. We know Cersei aborted (apparently only) one of Robert's babies, and that both of them are fertile; if this were going on all the time we'd expect to see a few of these.

Although I don't think it's made clear, I can also absolutely see Cersei manipulating Robert by holding out the suggestion or promise of sex in order to get her way in an argument, and then later going "well that was horrible". Overall, the picture I get of her is that she sees sex with Robert (of whatever kind) as distasteful but something she's prepared to tolerate in exchange for the benefits.

The point being that if looked at from the perspective of a reasonable observer within his own society, Robert probably wasn't really doing a whole lot wrong. Looked at through modern eyes, sure, he looks a whole lot worse, but then there are very few characters who aren't terrible people by that measure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I doubt Westeros has any real concept of marital rape: a husband is entitled to sex with his wife as of right.

I think that’s the case.  The wives were expected to do their “marital duties” whether they wanted to or not.  Even for Jaime it probably wouldn’t have been considered a rape, if Robert forced himself onto Cersei despite her obvious lack of enthusiasm or even disgust.

Now Robert striking Cersei seems to be a different issue.  Even Robert’s friend Eddard, seemed concerned over that.  So if Jaime knew Robert had done that, it could have been a different issue.

Edited by Frey family reunion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...