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UK Politics: Step Right Up, Step Right Up. Come Marvel At Our Amazing North Sea Snake Oil. Will Cure All Your Electoral Woes. Get It While It's Hot ;-)


Spockydog
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Let me put it simple.

Where wolves part of the natural eco system in central europe? Yes.

So restoring the eco system back to a natural state surely involves wolves. And the current wolf population was not bred in captivity. They remigrated to Germany from Eastern Europe (primarily Poland) in the late 1990s.

So yes, the choice is very binary. Either there are wolves in forests, or there aren't. I know owls are part of the European eco system, too. But maybe you should think about Mark Twain's advice about opening your mouth.

Edit for the record. Recorded wolf attacks on humans in Germany since their reemergence: 0.

Edited by A Horse Named Stranger
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9 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Let me put it simple.

Where wolves part of the natural eco system in central europe? Yes.

So restoring the eco system back to a natural state surely involves wolves. And the current wolf population was not bred in captivity. They remigrated to Germany from Eastern Europe (primarily Poland) in the late 1990s.

So yes, the choice is very binary. Either there are wolves in forests, or there aren't. I know owls are part of the European eco system, too. But maybe you should think about Mark Twain's advice about opening your mouth.

What is the ‘natural state’? That’s just a preconceived notion of what nature is meant to be. 
 

Take the UK, what is the natural state? If you wanted to go back a few hundred years and recreate that tiny slice of time the first thing you could do is murder all the grey squirrels which were imported and completely wiped out the natural red inhabitants. Maybe you should also go around shooting all those parakeets that have take over the south east. 
 

Natural state is highly subjective and probably quite idealised. You could maybe make an argument for Wolves in Germany ( though it doesn’t seem to be going well as they are now planning on allowing a lot more shooting of wolves to keep up with the exponential growth of introducing an animal with no other predators to keep numbers down) but in the UK it’s completely nuts.
‘Oh well what did you expect going into the Lake District camping!! Of course a wolf is going to attack you! It’s nature innit!’

Edited by Heartofice
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I am not opposed to the killing of wolves, if the population size gets too big/unsustainable.

I am reacting allergic to whiners complaining about non-issues.

And that children can't play alone in the forest is pretty much a non-issue.

Same with this wolves are threat to humans shizzle, with no wolf attack on humans whatsoever being recorded.

 

I have some degree of sympathy for sheep farmers losing parts of their flocks. They get compensated for their losses, and well, there are other measures before culling wolves. Ever wondered why some breeds are called sheep dogs. :dunno:

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2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I am not opposed to the killing of wolves, if the population size gets too big/unsustainable.

I am reacting allergic to whiners complaining about non-issues.

And that children can't play alone in the forest is pretty much a non-issue.

Same with this wolves are threat to humans shizzle, with no wolf attack on humans whatsoever being recorded.

 

I have some degree of sympathy for sheep farmers losing parts of their flocks. They get compensated for their losses, and well, there are other measures before culling wolves. Ever wondered why some breeds are called sheep dogs. :dunno:

The issue is really that the only benefit to more wolves is.. more wolves. That’s basically it. So when you balance it against all the other issues it creates.. it makes almost no sense to do it, especially in the UK. 
 

The argument that ‘oh well we just pay farmers to have they animals eaten’ is also just as eye rolling.

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I just don’t understand how anyone in this day and age has not grasped the concept that removing predators and other animals out of the ecosystem dramatically changed the ecosystem.

The changes wolves have brought to Yellowstone (and many places in Canada) are well documented. Deer and Elk populations had exploded, and they ate everything, including young trees., and they trampled the ground, especially along rivers and lakes, causing serious soil erosion. With wolves in Yellowstone the deer and elk numbers have gone down, willows and aspen are growing into trees again, and soil erosion has been reduced so much rivers are doing what they used to do, like cutting new branches and meandering.

Even the introduction of animals that are not predators makes huge, positive changes. Farmers and ranchers in the US have also fiercely fought the re-introduction of beavers, complaining about their nasty habit of making dams. Those dams, however, restore water sheds by slowing down runoff. They create new wetlands and restore old wetlands, improving things for all kinds of animals. Farmers and ranchers are angry because they want to suck up all the water they can get.

Friends of mine and I drove to Omaha, Nebraska from Toronto several times to attend the Berkshire Hathaway annual general meeting (a great thing to do before the old guys kick the bucket, but you need to own at least one share). The meeting is in the spring when the fields are empty and the trees are bare, so you really get to see the deer. Hunting in the USA had dropped dramatically and, oh, guess what, wolves have been wiped out, so the deer population is huge. Car accidents didn’t slow down our drive, car/deer accidents did. So many collisions in Michigan, and Ohio and Iowa. Probably Nebraska too, but Omaha is on the border and we really didn’t drive past it. 1550 Km (963 miles) is enough for one day, or two if we decided to overnight in Chicago. The idea that Land’s End to John o’Groats is the longest distance you can drive in the UK and is a mere 907 Km (603 miles) always makes me laugh.

And, finally, wolves were wiped out in the UK partly to protect precious deer for the nobles and the royals. Yes, they got out of control and ate the sheep and the cattle as well, but let’s face it, nobles and royals wiped out more humans in the UK than wolves ever did, and nobody ever hunted them into extinction.

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2 minutes ago, Raja said:

Ah, I forgot that I have to be a country.

How do I leave my mortal flesh to become the UK? :read:

Going by the current goverment. Just act and the dumbest, curelest and most self-serving way possible. Oh, and be more open to corruption.

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

This is a Uk thread and this is a follow on from a previous conversation about introducing wolves into the UK. 

And the UK is Germany? Somebody really bought into Boris the EU is German colonialization 2.0 shit.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah cos it’s a binary isn’t it! :rolleyes:
 
Maybe there is a range of ways of increasing wildlife without, you know, reintroducing a dangerous predator 

Talk about idiocy! 

This is so incredibly ignorant, maybe we should wipe out every dangerous predator! It would be such a good idea we could get tons of benefits, like uuh like children playing in the woods! 

 

Have yuu heard of ecology, trophic chains, etc.

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Whether or not wolves should be reintroduced to the wild int UK is a decision that requires knowledge and expertise way beyond what I have. I honestly don't know if it should be done or not.

I do very strongly believe that the decision should not be made just based on what is most convenient for humans (and landowners specifically). The overall flourishing of the ecosystem should be one of the primary concerns, with human safety being high on the list as well, and landowner convenience and other economic factors being way way down.

Wolves lived here before humans wiped them out. Animals have their own right to exist on the land, separate from their effect on humans. We don't own this planet, our interests are not the only interests that matter.

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20 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

This is so incredibly ignorant, maybe we should wipe out every dangerous predator! It would be such a good idea we could get tons of benefits, like uuh like children playing in the woods! 

 

Have yuu heard of ecology, trophic chains, etc.

Wolves have been extinct in the UK for about 500 years. We already have had an ecosystem based on there being no wolves for quite some time.

Edited by Heartofice
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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Does anyone think the UK might be different to Yellowstone? Anyone actually been the UK?

Have you been to The Highlands of Scotland?

They're not talking about reintroducing wolves on Hampstead Heath, ffs. 

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1 hour ago, Liffguard said:

Whether or not wolves should be reintroduced to the wild int UK is a decision that requires knowledge and expertise way beyond what I have. I honestly don't know if it should be done or not.

I do very strongly believe that the decision should not be made just based on what is most convenient for humans (and landowners specifically). The overall flourishing of the ecosystem should be one of the primary concerns, with human safety being high on the list as well, and landowner convenience and other economic factors being way way down.

Wolves lived here before humans wiped them out. Animals have their own right to exist on the land, separate from their effect on humans. We don't own this planet, our interests are not the only interests that matter.

But how do you feel about making a decision based solely on liking / disliking one of the people suggesting it?

 

Which is how this started, and restarted - whilst not being an ad hominem whatsoever.

 

 

On the plus side though, at least there's apparently nothing else currently happening in UK politics that's worth discussing.

Edited by Which Tyler
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5 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

But how do you feel about making a decision based solely on liking / disliking one of the people suggesting it?

 

Which is how this started, and restarted - whilst not being an ad hominem whatsoever.

No it isn’t at all. How many posts have you made in response to me that are either totally wrong or misrepresent what has been said?  It’s adding up.

The point is reintroducing Wolves into the UK is a batshit idea, no matter who suggests it. As an illustration of how George Monbiot is not to be taken seriously it also works quite well, which is why I mentioned it. 

58 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Have you been to The Highlands of Scotland?

I’m sure those lovely wolves will be nice and not move or head straight towards the much easier to catch sheep. But I guess we can just shoot any who do.. how’s that for going back to nature 

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