Alester Florent Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) 5 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: I disagree, Aerys enjoyed abusing his wife after hearing the screams of the burned people, he was obsessed by the burning at the stake as method of execution, he ordered the burning of King's Landing as final act, he was responsible for the death of Elia and her children, because he used them as hostages to blackmail Dorne and his revenge after Duskendale thing was shocking Joffrey isn't as bad as Aerys became, yet, but Aerys didn't go off the deep end until Duskendale. If Joff doesn't get off on inflicting violence, exactly, he certainly enjoys it. Look at his treatment of Sansa and having her beaten by his Kingsguard for no fault of her own. He is gleeful in ordering death on a whim, is inclined to be merciless to his enemies after they've surrendered (much as Aerys was after Duskendale). It's also heavily implied he abused Tommen. Joff is much worse than Aerys was at the same age, and this is when he has people around to try to limit his worst instincts (and when Tywin Lannister is the one holding you back from the brink, that's saying something in itself). Imagine what he'd be like after twenty years, with Tywin gone. Edited August 23 by Alester Florent sweetsunray, Craving Peaches and sifth 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 48 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Without going into the show with logistics, just look at King's Landing: A city of 500,000 people, which is stretching it by medieval standards (about the size of Constantinople c. 500 C.E.), primarily fed by food from the Reach no less than 500 miles away (Highgarden is 900 miles away), making it a big deal when Renly besieges King's Landing. This would require a rather large bureaucracy to organize, funding, distribution, as well as control over neighboring kingdoms, would it not? And yet it's shown that the Crown is rather hands-off in ruling. Unless most of the population subsists on each other... Only that's not what you said. You said 'everything'. And proceeded to list several different aspects that according to you are as bad in the books as they are in the abomination, with the difference being only the scale. So I 100% stand by my previous comment, your claim is total bollocks. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) Westeros does have scaling issues which would mean several things presented to us would not be logistically feasible. This is an issue which effects the whole world. It is just too giant in many aspects. If Westeros was 'only' the size of western Europe rather than South America, things would make more sense. Castles and the Wall should probably be smaller, as should the tourney winnings in the first book, Gregor's weight, and probably the timescale of historical events. Edited August 23 by Craving Peaches csuszka1948 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 hours ago, Kal-L said: He attempted to get cozy with the new King of the Iron Throne that the STAB (including Lord Eddard Stark) alliance had elected, and whose position was threatened by the Targaryens. Tywin and his monsters are guilty of their crimes, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking those who bent the knees to Robert (apparently based on his Targaryen's blood) didn't jeopardize the lives of the remaining Targaryens. Hum what are you talking about ? Ned didn't fight the war for Robert, he did it to keep his heads and most of all for his family. To avenge his father and brother from the gruesome deaths they had suffered and for the sister who had disappeared. Now, sure as a Targs lover, you might have a problem with the Starks retaliating to the Targaryens's madness and entitlement, but out of all the stupid things he did, putting an end to the reign of these lunatic was definitely not one of those. In fact it is the best thing he did imo. I disagree but it doesn't matter anyway, they were the enemies of the Starks, they had to be dealt with accordingly. Well actually not really, Tywin's absolute neediness to marry into the Targs is proof of his admiration towards the Dragonlords. Look at the way he was still throwing his daughter at Rhaegar in spite of all the humiliation he had suffered from Aerys, the man had no self-esteem when it comes to the Targs which is the reason why he kept eating so much sh*t from Aerys while begging for a marriage. Aerys merely saw him as the greedy servant he was. They didn't do worse. The kingdom fell when they all died. During their living, the kingdom was at peace. Tywin only wanted to marry into the Targaryens for the throne. It wasn’t any obsession with them as a family. Tywin imagined his daughter a queen and blood on that ugly throne. Of course the rebels did worse at running a kingdom. How does a kingdom fall into a civil war after a newly appointed royal family? Someone tell me how you have the makings of a King(Robert had the lineage, power, education, backing of powerful men, etc..) and still manage to fuck it all up? Westeros fell into a civil war because the new king was a drunken idiot who should have died in the crib or been an overlooked second son. The neglect that Robert, Arryn, and even Ned gave to Westeros allowed for the Lannisters to slowly but surely grasp control of that throne. Arryn arranging a marriage between Robert and Cersei was ridiculous. Robert keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard, spending the gold in the treasury, ect… Arryn, Robert, and Ned(my poor Ned)were idiots and got theirs with death in betrayal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 36 minutes ago, The Wolves said: Someone tell me how you have the makings of a King(Robert had the lineage, power, education, backing of powerful men, etc..) and still manage to fuck it all up? Westeros fell into a civil war because the new king was a drunken idiot who should have died in the crib or been an overlooked second son. The neglect that Robert, Arryn, and even Ned gave to Westeros allowed for the Lannisters to slowly but surely grasp control of that throne. Arryn arranging a marriage between Robert and Cersei was ridiculous. Robert keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard, spending the gold in the treasury, ect… Arryn, Robert, and Ned(my poor Ned)were idiots and got theirs with death in betrayal. The realm fell into civil war principally because (a) Cersei alienated the key figures in the realm necessary to ensure a smooth transition of power and (b) Littlefinger and Varys engineered a situation where the houses were likely to fall out. Robert and his policies, benign neglect of the realm, spending beyond his means, whatever, had surprisingly little to do with it. Even then, Ned was in probably in a position to prevent a major war (as opposed to one more on the scale of Balon's rebellion) when Robert was dying, and was presented with two alternative schemes for doing so. Quote Of course the rebels did worse at running a kingdom. How does a kingdom fall into a civil war after a newly appointed royal family? Immediately after a change of dynasty is probably the most likely time for war to erupt, because the new dynasty hasn't had a chance to bed in and establish itself yet. sweetsunray and Kal-L 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Everything that people complain about in the show (logistics, subverting expectations, sudden bad things happening out of nowhere, unpleasant shifts in characters) is present in the books, just on a larger scale. 3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Without going into the show with logistics, just look at King's Landing: A city of 500,000 people, which is stretching it by medieval standards (about the size of Constantinople c. 500 C.E.), primarily fed by food from the Reach no less than 500 miles away (Highgarden is 900 miles away), making it a big deal when Renly besieges King's Landing. This would require a rather large bureaucracy to organize, funding, distribution, as well as control over neighboring kingdoms, would it not? And yet it's shown that the Crown is rather hands-off in ruling. Unless most of the population subsists on each other... Nobody has ever claimed that world building is Martin's strong suit. He's not particularly good at it and everyone knows it. So your complaint about KL is effectively irrelevant. As for the rest, @kissdbyfire was right. It's complete nonsense. He does plot, characters, and themes great. The show didn't. At all. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanBeanedMeUp Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 15 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: Daenerys is the first one trying to fix that, but slavery is part of Essos societies:eunuchs, bed slaves, people sacrificed for their blood, priests and more, it's important for the Dothraki too, they gain wealth by selling slaves to the Slaver's Bay. That's what makes slavery so scary. It's the way people justify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanBeanedMeUp Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 Also one thing I have an issue with is why Tyrion doesn't pursue Petyr over the Valyrian blade and being falsely accused of trying to kill Bran. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 hours ago, Nevets said: Nobody has ever claimed that world building is Martin's strong suit. He's not particularly good at it and everyone knows it. So your complaint about KL is effectively irrelevant. As for the rest, @kissdbyfire was right. It's complete nonsense. He does plot, characters, and themes great. The show didn't. At all. There are issues with World building. But, nowhere does Martin have armies marching from the Trident to the capital in three days, or Dany flying at the speed of Concorde on Drogon, or 108,000 soldiers and their horses on Dragonstone, or Gendry sprinting 100 miles etc. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 (edited) 13 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: Jon Arryn was a great Hand of the King, the arranged marriage was important, Lannisters were the wealthiest and Tywin was a skilled Commander. It's not easy to convince other lords you are the king, when in Westeros the great lords supported the crown because of dragons and descendants of the last dragonlords. Robert kept the throne thanks to the support of the Riverlands, Westerland, Stormlands, the Vale and the North. He had the support of the Riverlands and the North thanks to the friendship with Lord Stark, Renly was "friend" of Tyrells and plotted to replace Cersei, the only Kingdoms that clearly rejected Robert, we're the Iron Islands and Dorne. Dorne had no chances of victory, Tywin was not a merciful Commander Jon Arryn was a good guy and I think he did well in a number of instances, but arranging a marriage with the Lannisters was probably his worst decision. Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch should have died at the least (although this is on Robert too) and the Lannisters should have been kept out of their immediate circle. All marrying Cersei did was get the Baratheons defrauded and earn them the enmity of Dorne for murders and a rape that the STAB alliance had no part in. 5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Westeros does have scaling issues which would mean several things presented to us would not be logistically feasible. This is an issue which effects the whole world. It is just too giant in many aspects. If Westeros was 'only' the size of western Europe rather than South America, things would make more sense. Castles and the Wall should probably be smaller, as should the tourney winnings in the first book, Gregor's weight, and probably the timescale of historical events. The timescale of historical events is a good one. The Frey's are considered upstarts, because they rose to prominence around 600 years ago, but for us, around 600 years ago was the early 1400's. It's the Middle Ages. Think of how far technology has com in that time. Yet there are families in Westeros that rose to prominence 6,000 years ago and they're still stuck in the Middle Ages? Of course it's fantasy, so we give it some leeway, but it's still weird. Edited August 24 by Lee-Sensei Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 13 hours ago, The Wolves said: The physical reaction to what was done to Elia and her children is and will always make seethe with hatred and make me team Targaryens in Robert’s Rebellion. The rebels dying the way they did is poetic and just(except Ned who is my favorite character) they all deserved their betrayals and deaths. The reaction to Mycah's murder is worse. No one at all cares about it, other than Arya. At least, a few people cared about the murder of Elia and her children. Ned, however, was the only prominent rebel who did so. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: The reaction to Mycah's murder is worse. No one at all cares about it, other than Arya. At least, a few people cared about the murder of Elia and her children. Ned, however, was the only prominent rebel who did so. That's because smallfolk lives matter much less than the lives of highlords. Just like the lives of vassals matter less than the lives of people from the Great Houses. And the lives of people from the Great Houses matter less than the lives of people from the royal family. I agree that it's messed up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 7 hours ago, The Wolves said: Yep. When you not only deny those innocents justice as King, than dehumanize and finally reward their murderers for that horrific deed then yeah you are responsible. You are responsible for denying justice, and rewarding the murderer, which is reprehensible enough. You are not responsible for the murders, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 12 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said: The timescale of historical events is a good one. The Frey's are considered upstarts, because they rose to prominence around 600 years ago, but for us, around 600 years ago was the early 1400's. It's the Middle Ages. To be fair, the Howards are dreadful parvenus. Lee-Sensei 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: To be fair, the Howards are dreadful parvenus. The Howards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 15 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said: The Howards? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_family Lee-Sensei 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 1 minute ago, Alester Florent said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_family D'oh. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 The Renly claim is important to understand that everyone with a large army and enough resources could become king of the Iron Throne. If the second dance of the dragons happens, Daenerys is going to use her dragons against Golden Company elephants, so if the strongest army is not match to face dragons, Daenerys has clearly the strongest claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 Robert should have sent Lurch and Gregor to The Wall; possibly Jamie too, but I can see Robert and Jon A, not wanting to do that, since it would anger Tywin. If Jamie explained Aerys plan to destroy the city, I can see grounds to pardon him. Maybe dismissing him from the Kingsguard, as a way to please Tywin. Robert marrying Cersei directly is a mistake, since Tywin came to his cause late. Maybe allow Stannis or Renly to marry her though, as a way to unite the families. Robert should have married a member of House Tyrell or Martell, to turn a former enemy into a friend and uniting a second powerful house to his cause. Willam Stark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 5 hours ago, sifth said: Robert should have sent Lurch and Gregor to The Wall; possibly Jamie too, but I can see Robert and Jon A, not wanting to do that, since it would anger Tywin. If Jamie explained Aerys plan to destroy the city, I can see grounds to pardon him. Maybe dismissing him from the Kingsguard, as a way to please Tywin. Robert marrying Cersei directly is a mistake, since Tywin came to his cause late. Maybe allow Stannis or Renly to marry her though, as a way to unite the families. Robert should have married a member of House Tyrell or Martell, to turn a former enemy into a friend and uniting a second powerful house to his cause. The thought of Stannis and Cersei being wedded to each other is overwhelming. sweetsunray and AemonsEyes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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