Resistance is Futile - H&M Part 5

[Cas Stark]

Well, you know, everyone gets Markled in the end, no matter who you are.

[Zorral]

Even racists and idiots?

[Heartofice]

56 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Here we see the slow Strawman Creep, except it wasn't very slow at all. First those of us who disagree with you are insisting that it's only racism that's responsible for the negativity. Then, maybe it's mostly racism. Then you get to maybe race is an exacerbating factor -- which is, in fact, the common claim here. That there is a spectrum of reasons she gets such a psychotic reaction from the UK's population of traditionalists, authoritarians, and throne-sniffers, and racism is one of the reasons. The "one of several factors" argument never seemed to get any acknowledgement from you,  and then you and HoI inevitably get back to accusing everyone else of saying it's only racism, so I am glad to see you acknowledge that it could, in fact, be an exacerbating factor.

There is an easy way to clear all this up, if what you are trying to assert is that nobody has ever claimed racism to be the primary, or even a major factor in the dislike of Meghan. People like Tywin and others, can pop in and say 'I don't think racism was a major factor in why Meghan is so unpopular'.

At least then we will know where everyone stands on this board and it will make conversations a lot easier.

Obviously it won't address the insinuations made by H&M themselves or other swathes of the press that have said it, but at least we can get things moving forward here.

[DanteGabriel]

On 8/17/2023 at 3:12 PM, Heartofice said:

I'm really trying to understand what it is you are trying to object to here. Are you trying to suggest that nobody on this board, or anyone else has said that the primary motivation for the dislike for Meghan is based on her race? Are you just arguing over semantics or splitting hairs here. I'm very confused.

 

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There is an easy way to clear all this up, if what you are trying to assert is that nobody has ever claimed racism to be the primary, or even a major factor in the dislike of Meghan. People like Tywin and others, can pop in and say 'I don't think racism was a major factor in why Meghan is so unpopular'.

At least then we will know where everyone stands on this board and it will make conversations a lot easier.

Obviously it won't address the insinuations made by H&M themselves or other swathes of the press that have said it, but at least we can get things moving forward here.

I know this is the setup for a trap because no matter what anyone says you'll just lie about it and strawman us anyway.

But for the sale of argument, there's a lot of room between "primary" and "major" and both words leave a lot of room for negotiation, so what are you actually asking people to say?

My thought has always been that racism is an exacerbating factor. I gave always acknowledged that being an American and an actor and her own actions have fed into the response she gets. She may have earned negative reactions if she'd been a white woman but I doubt Jeremy Clarkson would have fantasized about stripping and shaming her and gotten it published by the troglodyte press. But that's just my sense, and it seems like a fool's errand to try to fix percentages on it or anything like that.

I had thought your contention was that racism was not a factor in the reaction to her, so please clarify where you stand as well.

Edited August 18 by DanteGabriel

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

 

I know this is the setup for a trap because no matter what anyone says you'll just lie about it and strawman us anyway.

But for the sale of argument, there's a lot of room between "primary" and "major" and both words leave a lot of room for negotiation, so what are you actually asking people to say?

I had thought your contention was that racism was not a factor in the reaction to her, so please clarify where you stand as well.

Ok sure, for the sake of fairness, I will say that I think racism is very much a minor factor in the reaction to her, that obviously there are some racist people around and they don’t like her,  but the overwhelming reasons why she is unpopular is due to .. well the things I’ve laid out many many times before. 
 

[Cas Stark]

There is also a very big difference between claiming that media coverage is racist, which has been claimed on this board many times and is routinely stated as a fact by writers, reporters, broadcasts, politicians.....and that some level of racism might be at play in why some number of people don't like Meghan and Harry. 

The first is, as far as I can tell, objectively false.  Despite claims of 'dozens' of examples of media racism, there is barely any coverage that could reasonably be called racist or even racialized.  The second, I mean, obviously if you go down into the twitter hellhole you're going to find some racist stuff, duh.

Perhaps I have misunderstood that people on this board think that racism plays a major role in dislike of M&H, when what they really meant was that some unknowable number of individuals harbor some level of racist animus against Meghan.  In which case, I agree. 

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Ok sure, for the sake of fairness, I will say that I think racism is very much a minor factor in the reaction to her, that obviously there are some racist people around and they don’t like her,  but the overwhelming reasons why she is unpopular is due to .. well the things I’ve laid out many many times before. 
 

Well fucking hell, that's progress! I'd say it's a "significant" factor in her treatment, but there's a pretty fungible margin between our positions.

I still don't get the amount of time and attention devoted to tracking her activities and finding the worst possible explanation for every move she makes, but I don't want to make personal attacks or anything. Almost any positive feeling I have for her or Harry is a response to the vitriol they get from the likes of Clarkson and Morgan.

With Harry, I have a little more personal sympathy for losing a parent in such a horrible and public way, and I found the mockery of him for his grasping at some connection with his mother to be particularly odious.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Well fucking hell, that's progress! I'd say it's a "significant" factor in her treatment, but there's a pretty fungible margin between our positions.

Right so just to be clear, what is the difference between significant and major?

[DanteGabriel]

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Right so just to be clear, what is the difference between significant and major?

It's whatever you want it to be.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

It's whatever you want it to be.

Not a great answer, because they sound pretty similar. Which would make your protests look pretty bizarre 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

22 hours ago, Week said:

I apologize for calling you magnanimous. That was an error in judgment on my part and I should not have labeled you as such.

I’m sorry, what’s wrong with calling someone “magnanimous”?

Edited August 18 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[DanteGabriel]

11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Not a great answer, because they sound pretty similar. Which would make your protests look pretty bizarre 

I don't get this. You had previously poo-pooed the idea of any racism affecting her treatment. Just acknowledging that it was present at all is enough for me. I don't see the point of trying to dicker over semantics.

If you're trying to win some kind of rhetorical concession from Ty or anyone else you can take it up with them.

[Week]

11 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I’m sorry, what’s wrong with calling someone “magnanimous”?

*Tongue firmly placed in cheek.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

23 minutes ago, Week said:

*Tongue firmly placed in cheek.

Whaa?

[Heartofice]

36 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I don't get this. You had previously poo-pooed the idea of any racism affecting her treatment. Just acknowledging that it was present at all is enough for me. I don't see the point of trying to dicker over semantics.

If you're trying to win some kind of rhetorical concession from Ty or anyone else you can take it up with them.

Ok, let’s just make it clearer. Just say  'I don't think racism was a major factor in why Meghan is so unpopular', then we don’t have to quibble over wording. 
 

Then maybe Week can do the same 

[JGP]

I didn't pay much attention, what was the initial reception to Harry and Megan getting together? 

[Tywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

People like Tywin and others, can pop in and say 'I don't think racism was a major factor in why Meghan is so unpopular'.

Er, I have said it's a factor. Not the only one, but to say it plays no role is pretty silly. And where it jumps out is she gets shit on for things other royals do too and they get a pass. The hate likely stems most from her being black, being a foreigner and her husband siding with her over the royal family. The claims of lying are just weird because the entire family lies in public all the time. The bitching about her wealth is even stranger because that family has been robbing ya'll blind for more a long time.

Edited August 18 by Tywin et al.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Er, I have said it's a factor. Not the only one, but to say it plays no role is pretty silly. And where it jumps out is she gets shit on for things other royals do too and they get a pass. The hate likely stems most from her being black, being a foreigner and her husband siding with her over the royal family. The claims of lying are just weird because the entire family lies in public all the time. 

So it’s not a major factor?

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, JGP said:

I didn't pay much attention, what was the initial reception to Harry and Megan getting together? 

Positive. Then it quickly soured after they both pointed out pretty obvious problems with the RF. They're famous for manipulating the press, i.e., being lying manipulative sacks of shit, and then the tide turned. Meghan has said very little. The overreaction to her is strange. Harry is the one that's said a lot more and often times it's blamed on her. 

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So it’s not a major factor?

If I had to pie chart it I'd say 33% at the least, which is major when you consider everything.