Star Wars: You Must Be Over 18 (Midichlorians) To Enter

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

1 hour ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

But I still feel there’s a tonal difference between empire and andor, it’s just a subjective feeling I guess. Andor seems way more slow and brooding. 

And yes, there absolutely is a tonal difference between TESB and Andor. TESB is about a heroic journey and the heroes having their major setback. But it's still at its core a heroic, mythic journey. It still has action sequence to action sequence as the main drivers of the plots. It has random things like encounters with space worms and Wampas and silly stuff with Yoda. It has a lot of humor as well; Andor is remarkably un-comedic as a rule, even missing the Rogue One thing with K2S0. TESB is definitely darker than the rest of the OT but that's not what tone Andor is going for, and saying that because Andor and TESB both have torture is missing the point. 

Here's another way to illustrate it. In TESB one of the primary protagonists is being tortured by the absolute lead villain directly, and the goal is entirely to get another protagonist involved. The whole reason Han is being hunted is because of his connection to Luke. In Andor a secondary protagonist is being tortured by almost a faceless bureaucrat to get information about the rebellion in general. It is kind of about Andor but they don't even know that is who they're looking for. The difference is that TESB is personal (to the characters and to us) and Andor is entirely impersonal. 

Which is, as a whole, what Andor is going for any way - illustrating the banal evil of authoritarian bureaucracy, the uncaring mailed fist that isn't doing this because it hates you or thinks you're rebel scum, but because they're following orders and trying to make widgets more cheaply. That is definitely a very large tonal difference. 

[Relic]

A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...

 

The same conversation was being had again and again! Brave Prequels Enjoyers are approaching the planet Andor, where a small alliance of aged rebels are making their last desperate stand.

It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Rise of Skywalker has been destroyed, Youthful troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden LEGO base.

Evading the dreaded Corporate Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by an old Scandinavian Dude Who Shares His Dreams With Ghosts have established a new secret base on the remote streaming world of Andor.

The evil lord Darth Disney, obsessed with finding young sycophants, has dispatched thousands of animated series into the far reaches of space....

Edited September 18 by Relic

[Lady Anna]

I watched Ahsoka up to the latest episode and I think it's getting better episode by episode. I absolutely hated the fact that this started with yet another secret map quest - that was not a good sign. However, I thought episodes 4 and 5 were definitely highlights. Episode 5 really brought it home for me because it covered multiple angles and, while the writing feels non-committal and surface-level, I feel like there's the core of a better story and show underneath all that. It's like you can almost see the better show this could have been but it's somewhat always out of reach. Teen Ahsoka was simply awesome, too. The actress did a very good job!

I also dig the melancholy vibe of the last two episodes. I think it fits the character of Ahsoka very well and her past and sadness and all her issues and demons. I just wish all of this was more clear and fit better together? (Possibly with some thematic connection to Baylan's jadedness and fall, as well).

I just feel like this show needs more of everything: more conversations, more excitement, more characters and plot lines. Like others have said, it feels kinda empty and the editing seems to be doing the heavy lifting in terms of filling in the runtime (I don't think episode 3 was even 30 minutes long and like, why bother, then?). The acting doesn't help; while I personally think Dawson is pretty good - or good enough - as Ahsoka, once again the direction and/or the writing holds her back. The same for the other actors.

I'd expect to have a better understanding of Morgan, Baylan and Shin by now, too. Again, this show makes me ponder why they waste so much time on certain things that just aren't helping the story and characters. Makes me feel like this might have been originally a 2 and a half hour movie extended to a mini-series like Kenobi.

[dog-days]

I'm part-way through Mandalorian S3 at the moment. No spoilers, please. 

It's better than I thought it would be given all the disappointment around its release. It's more 'Star Wars' to me than Andor. Not better; Andor is a better-written, better-plotted show. But having a baby green puppet creature start learning to be a junkyard sci-fi Spartan did seem to be channelling essence of Star Wars. 

I may have had a beer or two while watching it, so that possibly improved the experience. 

[DaveSumm]

4 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Having lines like 'this is how democracy dies - to thunderous applause' is a fucking banger of a line that is not a cute or kid thing. 

Anyone else hate this line? It thinks it’s a lot more clever than it is. All a bit r/im14andthisisdeep.

(Also it’s liberty fyi).

[Rippounet]

6 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

And honestly, Star Wars wasn't made just for kids; it was made as something that could be approachable for kids and was fun, but had bigger things in the background. But it definitely was made with kids having something to hang on to and enjoy. It is at its core a fun mythic adventure.

Yes. And following my train of thought, I think developing the things in the background was always tricky. The OT "worked" because the fall of the Republic and of the Jedi order were meant to be distant tragedies, thus allowing to focus on the characters and their adventures. Because the PT tried to tell us everything about Palpatine's plot, it hurt the rest of the story.
In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to approach the events of the PT through the eyes of a relatively minor character, rather than tell the story of Anakin himself. Showing rather than telling how the Jedi slowly lost their way, and how they let the Republic wither away.
That approach seems to have been rather popular: it worked with Andor and Rogue One, and also to some extent in The Clone Wars (whose episodes often told minor stories and/or focused on minor characters).

Edited September 18 by Rippounet

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Noticed a lot of people disparaging the SW ‘cartoons’ . These two scenes below taken from a SW mini series alone have more depth than the entire ST trilogy: 

So let’s not look down on animation being inferior to live action content people.

[karaddin]

I think I've got to conditionally agree with Rodrigo despite coming from a very different angle. I think Andor is a phenomenal show that happens to be set in the world of Star Wars, but its not a Star Wars show. As you've largely agreed by this point,  its certainly using the aesthetic style of the OT and that does ground it quite firmly in that period of the story, but even within that aesthetic it still doesn't fit entirely - its too real. The locations they picked, the buildings they're shooting in and around, it's real in a way that Star Wars had never been for me and that's not even a criticism - Star Wars wasn't meant to feel real. It's a larger than life story about plucky heroes overcoming a larger than life evil - we don't get bogged down in the boring every day evil the Empire is doing, we're seeing it blow entire planets up just to make a statement. We're following the evil space priests that can telepathically choke people, or shoot lightning.

But Andor?

7 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Which is, as a whole, what Andor is going for any way - illustrating the banal evil of authoritarian bureaucracy, the uncaring mailed fist that isn't doing this because it hates you or thinks you're rebel scum, but because they're following orders and trying to make widgets more cheaply. That is definitely a very large tonal difference. 

Andor is all about that every day boring evil. The sort that grinds down peoples souls to the point they don't even feel alive anymore. The sort that manipulate a population like an abusive partner abuses their spouse, gaslighting them into thinking it was their own fault they stopped visiting their sacred shrines. The people that do evil not because of malice, but because they simply want career ambition and that's what a good citizen does.

Also it doesn't have space wizards, and space wizards are a central part of Star Wars to me.

Andor also feels more timely than anything else in SW ever has.

[IlyaP]

13 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Boom.  That’s it.  

 

13 hours ago, Heartofice said:

But I get that other people might feel differently. Andor is a return to 'real' star wars from my perspective.

Bingo. Andor feels like the obvious undercurrent to what's happening in the universe, and it has something meaningful to say that isn't quickly and easily digestible, and demands that viewers actually *think* rather than passively enjoy, as has been the case with nearly everything else in the SW universe.

[IlyaP]

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Having lines like 'this is how democracy dies - to thunderous applause' is a fucking banger of a line that is not a cute or kid thing. 

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Anyone else hate this line? It thinks it’s a lot more clever than it is. All a bit r/im14andthisisdeep.

(Also it’s liberty fyi).

 

It's such a mawkish line. The whole PT is kind of like that, and nothing Tom Stoppard could do would change that. Like, it's superficially fine, but its political pontifications are all surface-level and don't offer much beyond "hey democracy is great!". 

Well, sure, but tell me more. Like, are you going to engage with Hume's or Aristotle's or Plato's concepts of power, and provide any sort of meaningful context or explanation for why everyone's so simplistic and wooden and speaks in nearly monotone styles with all the emotional depth of a shallow puddle? 

The PT is, even moreso than the OT, basically a kids show about space wizards. It's meant for children, and its ideas are basically aimed for elementary school levels of education. There's nothing inherently interesting or deep being analysed in the PT, and it's a fool's errand to look for anything thoughtful in them - it's aimed squarely for and at the intellects/demographics of children.

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

So let’s not look down on animation being inferior to live action content people.

Actual quotes from this:

"I'm gonna make you pay for what you've done!"

"I'm tired of all this. Our love should not be hidden like it's some kind of immoral thing!"

"And in the shadows of Coruscant, or any other city, but most importantly in my heart, I will always love you."

All this only further reiterate my position that Star Wars is ostensibly material written with kids in mind, as this is exactly the kind of material I'd be writing if I was told "write for children". It'd be unfair to slag it for being what it's not intended to be - this is not content written for adults who want nuanced and sophisticated dialogue, this is a cartoon where two looney tunes characters jump across numerous trees branches like rag dolls being tossed about by invisible industrial strength fans. 

The stuff of Walt Whitman or Roger Zelazny it ain't, but that's not the intended audience. So hey, if you enjoy it, enjoy it, but don't forget it was intentionally aimed at a younger audience, so when someone who's been around the block cringes at the tackiness and simplicity of the dialogue, it's because it's not aimed for more sophisticated, adult tastes. Succession or The Expanse it definitely ain't!  

 

Edited September 19 by IlyaP

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

9 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Actual quotes from this drek:

"I'm gonna make you pay for what you've done!"

"I'm tired of all this. Our love should not be hidden like it's some kind of immoral thing!"

"And in the shadows of Coruscant, or any other city, but most importantly in my heart, I will always love you."

/vomit

 

Leaving aside the occasional cheesy dialogue lines (which was also present in the OT), these scenes don’t do anything for you? Can’t believe anyone would call this drek:

beautiful method of foreshadowing with the arm representing the dark side. Same with World between worlds , the father and the son etc in CW and Rebels. All the so called cartoon shows had some philosophy heavy, deep thinking moments in between the great action scenes (especially the 2003 action stuff, grevious and mace windu were awesome in it) and yeah cheesy dialogue. Just like the best of live action SW. The issue is people tend to ignore these moments and just nitpick the dialogue and just label them dreck and inferior to live action SW, and I’m tired of that happening. 

 

 

Edited September 19 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[IlyaP]

I amended my comments accordingly, as I was being unduly harsh for what is essentially a kid's show. Also, prophecies are a really tired and stale narrative technique that I've never liked, so it was never going to earn a buy-in, so to speak, from me. 

But deep? Dude, I spent seven years studying philosophy, and Star Wars is never going to compete in complexity and nuance with anything written by Aristotle, Hume, Decartes, Thoreau, etc. It's a simplistic Vietnam parable featuring space wizards that utilises simplistic black and white morality, questionable ethics, and and superficial ideas about governance and politics, invented and written (initially) by someone who's openly acknowledged he's not the best writer. 

Again: no harm or foul in what it is, but it is intentionally aimed at targeting the (I hate this phrase, as it's so redolent of the hell that is late stage capitalism) child to pre-teen demographic, not unlike some of the stuff I grew up watching, which is equally cringey to anyone who's outgrown it.

It's all fine for what it is, and has some excellent and dynamic action, and deserve respect for trying to aim as high as it can with the kind of demographic and limitations imposed by the series' caretakers/overseers, but suggesting it's heavy and deep thinking when it's a show aimed at very young and underdeveloped humans with very limited attention spans? Nah. 

[karaddin]

@IlyaP you still haven't watched Andor right?

[IlyaP]

28 minutes ago, karaddin said:

@IlyaP you still haven't watched Andor right?

Only episode 1 so far, which impressed the hell out of me. 

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

Only episode 1 so far, which impressed the hell out of me. 

Scot's been talking up a speech given by Luthen, but I suspect you'd also enjoy the manifesto that gets read out as well. It's a really nice sequence and both of them are a little more philosophical than most of the more superficial themes in SW.

[Heartofice]

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think I've got to conditionally agree with Rodrigo despite coming from a very different angle. I think Andor is a phenomenal show that happens to be set in the world of Star Wars, but its not a Star Wars show. As you've largely agreed by this point,  its certainly using the aesthetic style of the OT and that does ground it quite firmly in that period of the story, but even within that aesthetic it still doesn't fit entirely - its too real. The locations they picked, the buildings they're shooting in and around, it's real in a way that Star Wars had never been for me and that's not even a criticism - Star Wars wasn't meant to feel real. It's a larger than life story about plucky heroes overcoming a larger than life evil - we don't get bogged down in the boring every day evil the Empire is doing, we're seeing it blow entire planets up just to make a statement. We're following the evil space priests that can telepathically choke people, or shoot lightning.

But Andor?

Andor is all about that every day boring evil. The sort that grinds down peoples souls to the point they don't even feel alive anymore. The sort that manipulate a population like an abusive partner abuses their spouse, gaslighting them into thinking it was their own fault they stopped visiting their sacred shrines. The people that do evil not because of malice, but because they simply want career ambition and that's what a good citizen does.

Also it doesn't have space wizards, and space wizards are a central part of Star Wars to me.

Andor also feels more timely than anything else in SW ever has.

Thinking about it more I think the reason Andor feels closer to SW to me than anything in the PT is because the OT layered it’s fantastical elements on top of a seemingly mundane but believable world. 
 

The entire opening of ANH is really about how large scale galactic war comes to affect a small farmboy whose life is incredibly dull and mundane. Luke’s farm, buying crappy old droids, Tattooine, all feel mostly kind of boring and uneventful, but also it was pretty easy to imagine such a world existing.

One of the great strengths of the OT is that it’s worlds do feel real, even EwokLand makes some semblance of sense. It’s easy to extrapolate and imagine this whole universe just going on its own way, doing everyday activities while a war plays out somewhere else.

Which is the bit that Andor captures. It expands on that universe and makes it feel real. 
 

Nothing in the PT feels real, almost by design. Even Anakin fixing droids feels contrived and kooky, he’s hardly shovelling shit for a living. Everything feels like a trope and a device and is lightened to appeal to children. That’s why it doesn’t work for me

[IlyaP]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Everything feels like a trope and a device and is lightened to appeal to children.

Lucas also got to indulge in his 50's nostalgia with the retro-speeder designs as well, which felt slightly out of place after some of the admittedly neat designs from Doug Chiang in episode 1. 

It also has a far less lived in, and more rubbery CGI, "we're in green screen land now, Toto!" feel to it, which robbed the movies of a certain level of tactility, and made it feel more like humans in a cartoon world, like Cool World or Who Framed Roger Rabbit or something, to the point where, I think it was Ewan who said the movie was 20% humans and 80% CGI. 

May as well just call it an FMV videogame by that point. 

[IlyaP]

6 hours ago, karaddin said:

Scot's been talking up a speech given by Luthen, but I suspect you'd also enjoy the manifesto that gets read out as well. It's a really nice sequence and both of them are a little more philosophical than most of the more superficial themes in SW.

I suspect I really would. I've had a bunch of interviews going on at the moment, so I've not really had the luxury of much free time, and what little time I do have, I try to use for catching up on reading and podcasts. And, y'know, Cyberpunk 2077, because reasons.

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Lucas also got to indulge in his 50's nostalgia with the retro-speeder designs as well, which felt slightly out of place after some of the admittedly neat designs from Doug Chiang in episode 1. 

It also has a far less lived in, and more rubbery CGI, "we're in green screen land now, Toto!" feel to it, which robbed the movies of a certain level of tactility, and made it feel more like humans in a cartoon world, like Cool World or Who Framed Roger Rabbit or something, to the point where, I think it was Ewan who said the movie was 20% humans and 80% CGI. 

May as well just call it an FMV videogame by that point. 

Certainly the visuals didn't help with the immersion. Hard to get the sense that people exist in a real world when it's so obvious they are sitting in front of a green screen, where each scene consists of a foreground and a background and nothing in between.

The aesthetic of the OT is often described as 'lived in', and usually its referring to the rust on the ships, but I think it's more than that, you actually get the sense that the world is still continuing off screen.