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Star Wars: You Must Be Over 18 (Midichlorians) To Enter


DaveSumm
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40 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Is it so far out of line for Vader to receive a deathbed redemption?  Anakin was already the subject of a virgin birth.  His death brought balance to the force/redemption of sins for the galaxy.  We can argue faith and spirituality in another setting than this thread, but the fact is that nearly 1/3 of our planet identify as Christian.  Which teaches fundamentally that there is no sin too grievous for which to seek redemption if you accept salvation.

Why should we have such difficulty accepting his redemption from a story standpoint when a significant minority of our own population believe in the principle?

 

Well it was a practicing Catholic that raised the objection in this thread so yeah I stand by it.

 

Firstly, while most Christianity does teach there is (almost*) no sin that is irredeemable, it also doesn't teach that you don't have to work at redemption. And if you don't do so before death, you do so after, in purgatory. The story just doesn't leave any space for that to happen. Which is fair in the original film. It's a simple story beat in what was then a simple standalone story. Going off on a tangent about Vader's redemption would have been silly, and there was no space within the film to show an arc of that kind- it would have had to be an entirely different movie. But it's the developments since then that make the concept feel awkward. 

Secondly, Vader never really repents. He realises he loves his son, saves him, and then tells Luke he was right that there's good in him. But that's a really low bar. At no point does he repudiate or ask forgiveness for any of his actual sins. He just goes 'see I saved you I can be good' and then dies. That was my complaint up there- not that Vader cannot be redeemed, but that he doesn't do anything to show he's on the path.

Thirdly: my complaint was with the somewhat disjointed storytelling of Star Wars in this particular aspect, not with the concept of redemption in itself.

 

 

*Jesus states directly in the gospels that blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. No-one's ever really been sure how to interpret that. Mostly it's not seen as just like disbelieving or insulting the Spirit- one of the interpretations is that if you've been touched by the Holy Spirit and repudiate it, that's unforgivable. If you try to force that concept into a Star Wars framework it pretty much would have to exclude Anakin, but I think at that point we'd be reading a little too much Christian allergory into a non-allergorical story.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Agreed.  It wasn't the idea that was terrible, it was the execution.  And the fact that it wasn't planned for or hinted at from the beginning of TFA.

Yes. Like the message in the opening crawl... was something you had to attend a Fortnite event to hear. Crazy. 

I didn't mind the lack of any more explicit hint in the first film. But they should have done it, especially given that Johnson went in a totally different direction even though by all indications JJ's idea from the start was that Palpatine was returning (hence his having made Rey a descendant of the Emperor). But this was indeed just execution. They messed up planning out the trilogy, at least to some degree. Like there should have been a handful of at least set-in-stone details.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

 

An idea that Lucas had approved of, years earlier, though.

Are we talking about the EU? He's very much dead in that, but gets cloned. I know Lucas original plan, was to write a sequel trilogy, where Luke and his sister team up to defeat the Emperor, but he choose to just use the character for Return of the Jedi, because he felt like ending the story there.

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Just now, sifth said:

Are we talking about the EU? He's very much dead in that, but gets cloned.

The Emperor has cloned himself in Dark Empire, yes, but he transferred his actual conscience into the bodies, so it was still actually "him".  And this specific idea was something he actually not only personaly approved, but suggested when he rejected writer Tom Veitch's original idea of having someone pretend to be Darth Vader. While he said at some point that Palpatine was dead for good as far as a sequel trilogy goes', we also know his views were rarely set in stone, and who knows what he would have done when he finally made a sequel trilogy? In any case, I'm not personally bothered by the storyline because Lucas himself was willing to see it in a related, if non-canonical, project. 

But as Rhom says, the execution was poor. Episode one probably should have had a hint, and episode two absolutely should have hinted at it or, better yet, revealed it at the end. Johnson seemingly not wanting to do that and then being allowed to not do it really made a mess of things.

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40 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I watched much of Rebels, but not the last season.  So I'm not familiar with the workings of the world between worlds.  Is Anakin a "force ghost" there?  Or some multiversal variant?  What am I looking at here?

We have no idea. The only things we've seen in the World between worlds have been honest to goodness people. Not ghosts or anything. 

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The other possibility, because time does not exist there, is that Anakin found his way into the Way when he was still a young man and is meeting (from his perspective) Future Ahsoka from long after his personal fall. That might explain why they had to de-age him.

I saw a theory that it's not really Anakin, but someone trying to deceive Ahsoka. Either Vader, maybe he found a way there, and the ominous music that plays at the end might be a clue to that, or it could be the Son of the Mortis gods.

But, considering how all the Marrock theories went into a puff of (green) smoke, I'm skeptical of any fan theories at this point.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Just saying. The Emperor returning through Sith magic and clones was not a problem for me, and it wasn't for Lucas either when he okayed Veitch's Dark Empire storyline!

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. It was easily the dumbest idea Disney used, since getting it's hands on the IP. It defines just how creatively bankrupt the sequel trilogy was.

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1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

I saw a theory that it's not really Anakin, but someone trying to deceive Ahsoka. Either Vader, maybe he found a way there, and the ominous music that plays at the end might be a clue to that, or it could be the Son of the Mortis gods.

But, considering how all the Marrock theories went into a puff of (green) smoke, I'm skeptical of any fan theories at this point.

This forum is the sum total of my Star Wars outreach on the net these days.  What sorts of craziness was out there?

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Just saying. The Emperor returning through Sith magic and clones was not a problem for me, and it wasn't for Lucas either when he okayed Veitch's Dark Empire storyline!

Dark Empire was widely written off as dogshit at the time though, almost entirely because of the returned Emperor storyline. I remember everyone being so very excited about the return of Star Wars thanks to Zahn and Thrawn, and then Dark Empire and Jedi Academy hit back-to-back (and the latter acknowledged the former, though later novels seemed to eject Dark Empire from continuity) and everyone was suddenly terrified the rest of the EU was going to be crap. Fortunately it never got any worse than Veitch and Anderson, and Veitch didn't do much else.

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7 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I don't think Force Ghosts means that you're redeemed or even good.

Name all the force ghosts we've seen, tho. How can we draw any conclusion other than "chillin"

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9 minutes ago, Relic said:

Name all the force ghosts we've seen, tho. How can we draw any conclusion other than "chillin"

I mean, the force ghosts we've seen have been Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon and Anakin. And Luke!

So basically either you were in The Phantom Menace or you're Luke. 

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Fortunately it never got any worse than Veitch and Anderson, and Veitch didn't do much else.

How's that Crystal Star, Wert? Huh? HOW'S THAT EVIL JELLO BEAST. 

/twitches

That book hurt me.

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3 hours ago, Rhom said:

This forum is the sum total of my Star Wars outreach on the net these days.  What sorts of craziness was out there?

About Marrock? The big one was that he was Ezra. Silliness. The rival theory was that because Sam Witwer's name appeared in the credits, that maybe he was Starkiller from the Force Unleashed. Personally, I thought, that if Marrock was going to be anybody, it might have been Barriss Offee.

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4 hours ago, Relic said:

Literally saw him oversee the death of a planet. Reckon there were tons of kids there too. 

 

Yes. That is what I mean by abstracted- all we saw was a big explosion. Intellectually we know that was an incomparable horror, but we (1) never see the horror and (2) never see him get his hands dirty. It makes it easier to forget what that meant and swallow the redemptive moment. 

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6 hours ago, Werthead said:

Dark Empire was widely written off as dogshit at the time though, almost entirely because of the returned Emperor storyline. I remember everyone being so very excited about the return of Star Wars thanks to Zahn and Thrawn, and then Dark Empire and Jedi Academy hit back-to-back (and the latter acknowledged the former, though later novels seemed to eject Dark Empire from continuity) and everyone was suddenly terrified the rest of the EU was going to be crap.

It had massive sales for a non-superhero property back in the day, Kenner even released toys based on it (also not usual), and it spawned two sequels. I'd say its actual reception, at least in the States, was solid. Not as positive as Zahn's books, but certainly not "dogshit". Most that I can recall was that people felt letdown by the ending being rushed. 

Was Palpatine being resurrected controversial? Sure. So, too, was Luke turning to the Dark side during the story. And there were of course people who didn't either like Veitch's very comic book pulpy writing style, or Cam Kennedy's art. But a lot of people liked it more than they disliked it.

Now, all that said, I was looking up the sales details because I recalled they were great... and it turns out that last year Lucy Wilson, who oversaw the early EU, did some interviews and revealed that while Tom Veitch had had the impression that his ideas were being run by Lucas, in fact she was the one who was deciding things to begin with because Lucas at the time didn't want to be involved. So it was her call that the Vader impersonator thing was a no-go.... and her sign off to the idea of Palpatine cloning his body and resurrecting himself through Sith magic. 

And most saliently, per these interviews, she said that Lucas later told her that Palpatine would never have cloned himself, and because of that she said, well, you need to be more involved in future EU titles if you don't want that sort of thing happening again, and began to send him brief yes/no queries about proposed plot points to make sure he was okay with them going forward.

So. It looks like Lucas himself never did sign off on it in any form and even had a definite rejection of the Emperor would clone himself idea. I'm going to assume Wilson kept mum about it all this time because she didn't want to bring to light that Veitch wasn't as directly overseen by Lucas as he thought, but given his passing early last year I suppose she thought it wouldn't hurt him any to reveal it now.

I'm still not opposed to the idea in the sequel trilogy, but still, the execution was poor and could have been done better regardless.  Why does the idea appeal? I think it feels very pulpy to have the big bad return when you think he was done for, and thematically I like the idea of the evil of the Sith being something that can't be dealt with as easily as just tossing someone down a reactor shaft. 

Edited by Ran
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