The Incestuous Nature of the Targaryens is What Doomed Them

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei also confessed some of her sins. Did that spare her her walk? Lancel is rewarded for his treason and his crimes. No punishment, but status and prestige in his new religious world. In time he might even command the Warrior's Sons.

He had a queen stripped naked and hounded through the streets. He intends to try another queen for non-existent crimes.

But to be sure - the gang rape thing is pretty harmless compared to Castamere.

When I say he betrays his family I say he betrays Tommen and Myrcella ... not necessarily Jaime and Cersei (although he betrays them, too).

But of course, Lancel is a lesser son of a great house. His owes Tywin his allegiance and also Tywin's heirs. And, of course, also Cersei as his queen. They favored him in a pretty big way ... and now he spits in their faces. And the face of his own lord father.

We know Cersei only allowed him to touch her after Robert was dead. But we don't know when his birthday is, so who cares? When he fucks Cersei in ACoK he is sixteen. Not that it matters. There is no age of consent in Westeros and noblemen and noblewomen fuck and marry before they are sixteen all the time.

Lancel wasn't 'corrupted'. He lusted after his cousin and queen and she took advantage of that. Big deal.

The war was started by Tywin and Kevan when Tyrion was abducted - which had literally nothing to do with anything Cersei did. It was the doing of the bloody Starks and of Littlefinger and Lysa. The latter killed Jon Arryn and blamed it on the Lannisters in the letter to Cat - and that is what causes the war, not the twincest.

Bran's fall alone would trigger nothing.

Somebody will have to. Osney certainly will have to, but he won't be the champion of the Faith for obvious reasons. And the High Septon wants her to answer the charges of adultery and regicide, too. That only works if he has actual accusers laying such charges at Cersei's feet. And then they will have to face her champion in a trial-by-combat ... or they will have to send their own champions against her champion if they are highborn enough for that kind of thing.

Lancel is actually the only such accuser the High Septon has. He can accuse Cersei of regicide (by also revealing his own involvement which he so far may have actually only confessed to the late High Septon not the new one) and he might even pretend to know stuff about the twincest.

But without Lancel or somebody like him the Faith doesn't have anyone accusing Cersei of any big crime directly. The other stuff she already confessed.

Cersei was in her 30's and only confessed after her arrest. That's not the same thing.

And if Cersei could have gotten Margaery to make that walk, she'd laugh. Plenty of people get much worse fates for no reason at all. Like Jeyne Poole, who was sent to a brothel by Littlefinger and Cersei.

Kevan seemed to at least heavily resent Cersei for the things that she's done. In a scenario where Stevron Frey had been alive, but sent away during the Red Wedding and Walder Frey died. If he decided to punish his kin for their crimes, would you also consider that a terrible betrayal?

So he could have been 15. You want him to be 16. My point wasn't necessarily that she was wrong, because of the age difference. it's that she specifically went after this guy, because he'd be easy to manipulate and that there might be some leniency, because he's so young and confessed voluntarily.

Yes. Lancel was corrupted. And no. The Stark's aren't to blame for the war. Littlefinger is certainly to blame and even Lysa, but not as much as Jaime and certainly not as much as Cersei. She's the principal cause of it.

 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei was in her 30's and only confessed after her arrest. That's not the same thing.

LOL, she was stripped naked and publicly humiliated for some minor sins she confessed. Lancel confessed regicide and is elevated.

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

And if Cersei could have gotten Margaery to make that walk, she'd laugh. Plenty of people get much worse fates for no reason at all. Like Jeyne Poole, who was sent to a brothel by Littlefinger and Cersei.

Irrelevant side track.

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Kevan seemed to at least heavily resent Cersei for the things that she's done. In a scenario where Stevron Frey had been alive, but sent away during the Red Wedding and Walder Frey died. If he decided to punish his kin for their crimes, would you also consider that a terrible betrayal?

LOL, completely different case. The twincest harmed nobody directly, especially not Lancel or any other Lannister.

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

So he could have been 15. You want him to be 16. My point wasn't necessarily that she was wrong, because of the age difference. it's that she specifically went after this guy, because he'd be easy to manipulate and that there might be some leniency, because he's so young and confessed voluntarily.

She didn't go after him, he wanted to fuck her. He says as much to Jaime - he wanted to be him. He wanted her favor and her cunny. And he was more than old enough to act on it.

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. Lancel was corrupted.

Cersei never did anything with Lancel he didn't want. And it was Tywin who commanded him to obey her. He was not seduced into this thing.

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

And no. The Stark's aren't to blame for the war. Littlefinger is certainly to blame and even Lysa, but not as much as Jaime and certainly not as much as Cersei. She's the principal cause of it.

Nope. The war is caused by the friction between houses Lannister and Stark - and that includes some twincest stuff, but that is minor. Ned hates Jaime because of Aerys, and he hates Tywin because of the Sack. Joff tried to murder Bran, Lysa and Littlefinger murdered Jon Arryn and blamed the Lannisters for it. Littlefinger blamed Tyrion for the attempt on Bran, Cat abducted him and that caused Tywin to start a war.

He started it. And Robb then continues it. That it comes to fighting in the Riverlands at all is due to the Tyrion issue. Court stuff has no direct bearing on that.

The entire thing could have happened in exactly the same way without the twincest. Because there was more than enough friction there without the twincest.

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It was the doing of the bloody Starks

I don't think this holds true on reddit, but over here, people who blast the Starks also tend to be unreasonable. Which is an impression you reinforced, how sad.

The roots of the war were seeded when Cersei decided to maintain an ongoing relationship with his brother. Various other plotters and schemers would have nothing to water without the crime.

IIRC adultery stands as a modern crime, so don't give me the 'times have changed' speech.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They favored him in a pretty big way ... and now he spits in their faces. And the face of his own lord father.

Just shows that showering people with favors can't account for everything. Though like you in this case, I don't think a 'repentant' Lancel seems much more worthy of sympathy.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, she was stripped naked and publicly humiliated for some minor sins she confessed. Lancel confessed regicide and is elevated.

Irrelevant side track.

LOL, completely different case. The twincest harmed nobody directly, especially not Lancel or any other Lannister.

She didn't go after him, he wanted to fuck her. He says as much to Jaime - he wanted to be him. He wanted her favor and her cunny. And he was more than old enough to act on it.

Cersei never did anything with Lancel he didn't want. And it was Tywin who commanded him to obey her. He was not seduced into this thing.

Nope. The war is caused by the friction between houses Lannister and Stark - and that includes some twincest stuff, but that is minor. Ned hates Jaime because of Aerys, and he hates Tywin because of the Sack. Joff tried to murder Bran, Lysa and Littlefinger murdered Jon Arryn and blamed the Lannisters for it. Littlefinger blamed Tyrion for the attempt on Bran, Cat abducted him and that caused Tywin to start a war.

He started it. And Robb then continues it. That it comes to fighting in the Riverlands at all is due to the Tyrion issue. Court stuff has no direct bearing on that.

The entire thing could have happened in exactly the same way without the twincest. Because there was more than enough friction there without the twincest.

Those were major sins in their world and she'd have laughed if Margaery had to do it. Karma's a bitch.

It's not irrelevant at all. It's called karma.

It harmed the 7 Kingdoms as it started a war that's left thousands of people dead including Kevan's children.

No. She went after him. Whether he wanted it or not is irrelevant. She used sex to manipulate him.

Nope. She definitely seduced and corrupted him.

Who killed Ned again? Wasn't it Cersei's bastard? The Baratheon's were the primary threat and Balon would have stayed home if Theon was a hostage and Robert was alive. Almost everything goes back to Cersei's original sin. Yes. She's to blame for the war more than anyone else. I'm not going to victim blame the Starks. Although Catelyn is a much more moral and empathetic person that feels personally responsible in part for the war. Of course, Cersei doesn't care about the suffering she's caused. Just like she blamed Lollys for her own rape during the riot that Cersei and Joffrey caused.

[Lee-Sensei]

@SaffronLady The Starks didn't always make the best choices, but that there are people that blame them for the war.

Edited September 23 by Lee-Sensei

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I wonder what the initial spark that made Jon Arryn start investigating the paternity of Cersei's children was. He couldn't have just woken up one day and realised that all of them have suspiciously blonde hair. If that was the case, it should have happened much earlier. Tommen, the youngest one, was seven years old at the time of AGoT.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

The roots of the war were seeded when Cersei decided to maintain an ongoing relationship with his brother. Various other plotters and schemers would have nothing to water without the crime.

You see that they have a lot of other things going in the book. The twincest has some influence on Cersei's actions, but the war isn't started by anything she does. Tywin starts it.

And Jaime and Ned and the children would have loathed each other with or without the twincest. It is one element in a mixed bag of fucked up things.

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

IIRC adultery stands as a modern crime, so don't give me the 'times have changed' speech.

LOL, no, adultery isn't a crime in modernity. And Robert and Stannis are both adulterers, too.

22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I wonder what the initial spark that made Jon Arryn start investigating the paternity of Cersei's children was. He couldn't have just woken up one day and realised that all of them have suspiciously blonde hair. If that was the case, it should have happened much earlier. Tommen, the youngest one, was seven years old at the time of AGoT.

Stannis told him.

The question is how Stannis developed that weird and rather perverse notion to suspect Jaime. We have no clue.

Varys implies somebody told him, but it could only have been he himself - Littlefinger wouldn't have told him, and he might not even have known before Jon's investigation. But he has no motive nor do I think Stannis would have bought such a story from shady characters like Varys or Littlefinger.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The question is how Stannis developed that weird and rather perverse notion to suspect Jaime.

Well, it couldn't have been Lancel, since he was too young at the time. And Jaime and Cersei have always been super close, so I guess it was the first logical conclusion.

What I don't understand is why it took so long for the rumours to start.

Edited September 23 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Craving Peaches]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no, adultery isn't a crime in modernity.

Actually, I think it is still a crime in some countries.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no, adultery isn't a crime in modernity.

Like, respectfully, where on earth do you live? For the purpose of this conversation pretend I live in Afghanistan, where the punishment for adultery is ... death, I think.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The twincest has some influence on Cersei's actions, but the war isn't started by anything she does.

Look I know you want to exonerate Cersei but this is just plain disgusting. Has some influence? Has great influence.

If she had not the twincest secret she need not kill Jon Arryn, who was investigating the appearance of the bastards. She need not push off Bran off the tower, turning whatever animosity and hostility existed between the Starks and the Lannisters (was there any such animosity? The Starks weren't involved in the 9 penny kings nor any war that would have set up a feud with the Lannisters, unlike the Greyjoys) into a personal feud. She need not banish Ned to the Wall after a self-confession ... because Jon Arryn wouldn't even have died of poisoning in the first place, and Ned would not have found anything that conflicts his loyalty between Robert Baratheon and his children. And Joffrey, mildly psychopathic as he is, wouldn't have botched his mother's plot by ordering Ned's death.

[Nevets]

10 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Like, respectfully, where on earth do you live? For the purpose of this conversation pretend I live in Afghanistan, where the punishment for adultery is ... death, I think.

Look I know you want to exonerate Cersei but this is just plain disgusting. Has some influence? Has great influence.

If she had not the twincest secret she need not kill Jon Arryn, who was investigating the appearance of the bastards. She need not push off Bran off the tower, turning whatever animosity and hostility existed between the Starks and the Lannisters (was there any such animosity? The Starks weren't involved in the 9 penny kings nor any war that would have set up a feud with the Lannisters, unlike the Greyjoys) into a personal feud. She need not banish Ned to the Wall after a self-confession ... because Jon Arryn wouldn't even have died of poisoning in the first place, and Ned would not have found anything that conflicts his loyalty between Robert Baratheon and his children. And Joffrey, mildly psychopathic as he is, wouldn't have botched his mother's plot by ordering Ned's death.

Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn; Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish did, though Cersei was a suspect for a long time.  Cersei did not push Bran out of a window either.  That was Jaime.  Though it should be noted that he did so to hide the existence of the twincest, and without Bran's fall, nothing would have happened as it did.  No catspaw, no arrest of Tyrion, no Tywin in the Riverlands.  War might have broken out eventually, thanks to the plotting of Varys and Littlefinger, but that's less certain and farther in the future without the twincest.

Edited September 23 by Nevets

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Like, respectfully, where on earth do you live? For the purpose of this conversation pretend I live in Afghanistan, where the punishment for adultery is ... death, I think.

Several states in the US still have adultery as a crime. 
 

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn; Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish did, though Cersei was a suspect for a long time. 

Facepalms

My bad - keep forgetting the circumstances of Jon Arryn's death.

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

War might have broken out eventually, thanks to the plotting of Varys and Littlefinger, but that's less certain and farther in the future without the twincest.

And imo, the war wouldn't necesarrily be fought between the Lannisters and the Starks. I always thought the Tyrells versus the Lannisters was the conflict that could truly weaken the realm enough for Aegon's return.

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Several states in the US still have adultery as a crime. 

I see.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, it couldn't have been Lancel, since he was too young at the time. And Jaime and Cersei have always been super close, so I guess it was the first logical conclusion.

What I don't understand is why it took so long for the rumours to start.

It is just silly to suspect your sister-in-law to fuck her own twin brother. The children look like Cersei, too. If Robert is not their father it could be any man ... but any of Cersei's brothers would be very unlikely in the eyes of sane people.

I mean, honestly, if your wife's children wouldn't look like you but her ... would you conclude a brother of hers must be the father?

Edited September 24 by Lord Varys

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn; Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish did, though Cersei was a suspect for a long time.  Cersei did not push Bran out of a window either.  That was Jaime.  Though it should be noted that he did so to hide the existence of the twincest, and without Bran's fall, nothing would have happened as it did.  No catspaw, no arrest of Tyrion, no Tywin in the Riverlands.  War might have broken out eventually, thanks to the plotting of Varys and Littlefinger, but that's less certain and farther in the future without the twincest.

Bran's fall isn't viewed as something suspicious. It is the later attempt and that was Joff. And Joff could have done that also if he was Robert's son. Bran could also have actually fallen from the tower. He is actually falling before Jaime saves him only to throw him down. And Bran could also have been distracted if he had overheard and overseen Cersei talking about/doing something else. He starts to fall when he is discovered, not because of what he sees or hears.

The war as such starts because Tywin invades the Riverlands. And that has literally nothing to do with the twincest.

The twincest is but one piece in an entire puzzle of animosities and ambitions and hatred - and Ned doesn't even care much about it. He loathes Jaime for other reasons. He actually pities Cersei. Only Stannis pretends to care about it. Renly doesn't know about it at all.

[Lee-Sensei]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn; Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish did, though Cersei was a suspect for a long time.  Cersei did not push Bran out of a window either.  That was Jaime.  Though it should be noted that he did so to hide the existence of the twincest, and without Bran's fall, nothing would have happened as it did.  No catspaw, no arrest of Tyrion, no Tywin in the Riverlands.  War might have broken out eventually, thanks to the plotting of Varys and Littlefinger, but that's less certain and farther in the future without the twincest.

I'm pretty sure that Cersei wanted Jaime to push Bran out of the window. The war breaking out all goes back to the twincest. Littlefinger certainly played his part, but it was a tertiary role.