The Incestuous Nature of the Targaryens is What Doomed Them

[kissdbyfire]

44 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Because Cersei is the hero of her own story. Everyone that opposes her is ungrateful, a bitch, peasant scum or a filthy bastard.

Or someone who made her do any given evil thing she’s done… b/c of course nothing is ever her fault. 

Edited September 19 by kissdbyfire

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In any case, she should have dealt with Stannis before he permanently moved to Dragonstone.

She didn't seem to have the time. I also imagine that killing Stannis would be a lot more difficult. Her murder plots aren't the greatest as Bronn showed. Stannis isn't a chronic drunkard like Robert and even then, her plan required a great deal of luck. Robert's hunting party was originally going after a deer.

Edited September 19 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Source: ‘Game of Thrones’ Author George R.R. Martin: The Rolling Stone Interview – Rolling Stone

Sorry, but that has a lot of qualifiers. Did you get the 'almost' before 'sociopathic'. Cersei is a very problematic person, to be sure, but she is actually the more human Lannister than, say, Jaime, who really has no love or empathy for his children-nephews/niece (and don't use the silly 'Cersei never allowed me to be their dad' excuse - he was also the fucking uncle and Tyrion has a great relationship with them despite not living with them) and perhaps even more human than Tyrion (who raped his true love and murdered another lover).

And I never said Cersei's love for her children was 'unconditional' ... of course it is clouded and colored by real life. But the woman is broken by the sight of Joff's death. She loved that boy. And she loves her daughter and her other son. Not in the same way, perhaps, but she loves them. She also loves Jaime, she loved her father to a point, and most likely her mother, too.

The idea that her children are tools for her own aggrandizement is nonsense. They were tools to fuck Robert, of course, but that is in the past. Cersei wanted Joff to rule, Cersei wishes Tommen could rule in his own right but she doubts her can ... and as power finally is hers she wants to show the world she can rule. But she never planned to be a monarch. That is something she thinks she should be because her men all sucked in her opinion.

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

It's bad because she is committing treason, put herself and especially her children at risk in doing so.

Cersei doesn't care about that. And she says that quite openly. 'If you play the game of thrones you win or you die. There is no [fucking] middle ground.'

Cersei knows that her way to fuck Robert was dangerous ... but she didn't care. It might not be smart but it is certainly courageous and bold if you consider what was at stake for her.

And to be sure - it is kind of silly to reverse responsibility there. Robert or whoever thinks he can punish her for her 'treason' would have to murder or harm the children. It is not she, it is them who have to do the blood work. Cersei would be fine if they were weak and didn't punish the children - like poor Ned wanted to. It is not Cersei who made adultery among noble and royal married women illegal.

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

And unlike us, she doesn't know what's gonna happen in the future, don't use the plot to absolve her of her crimes.

She didn't know what would happen, but she rolled the dice and she put her not inconsiderable assets and wiles to the goal of ending up on top. And she did win. She might not win in the end, but I think right now Cersei can die content to a point knowing she destroyed Robert. She might also die content knowing that Robert's bloodline is destroyed - like, say, if she were to outlive Stannis and Shireen (which she easily might).

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

I would do my duty because I wouldn't be in a modern society, the standards are not the same and it's ludicrous to apply moderns standards to my situation.

You don't understand Cersei. She is a more modern woman than most because she is Jaime's twin and thanks to them switching clothes in childhood knows how differently men and women are treated in this world. She knows she is smarter than her silly twin brother ... but she is not treated a man with her brains would because of her sex.

Cersei thinks she is entitled to the same as a man in this world - and her bottled up rage and hatred comes from the fact that she is not allowed do what a man does.

So, know, if you were a woman like Cersei in this world you would be as pissed if you were forced to marry Robert as she was. You would not gladly accept your fate. You would also not stop banging your true love. Because you did it your entire life and you also feel pissed that you can't be with the guy openly.

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

No it's not, she wants power, she wants to be queen, she wants to rule and she is narcissistic.

Cersei wants what is her due as a Lannister and the great Tywin's daughter. It is arrogance and entitlement ... but so what? She is a Lannister not some nobody. Cersei wanted Rhaegar which was perhaps queenship in the future ... but it wasn't only about that. And, no, power is something she takes once the men in her life fail her again and again. Joff she just defended, her father and Jaime she wanted to protect her but they disappointed her or wanted to marry her off again.

Only with Tommen - who is a joke as a king at this point and lacks the potential to ever win the war or be a great ruler - does she play with the idea to never give up the regency. It is a real tragedy that real power comes to her when she is unhinged and paranoid and not when she rid herself of Robert. Then she could have been a decent ruler.

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Fucking Robert is a mean to an end : Cersei's reign.

Didn't you just say I should not look at things with the plot in mind? Fucking Robert was something Cersei did to get even with the brute. It had nothing to do with power as she could just as well ruled in the name of Robert's minor child - a child he actually fathered.

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In any case, she should have dealt with Stannis before he permanently moved to Dragonstone.

Cersei was in no rush to murder her in-laws or Robert. It is the Jon Arryn and later the Ned thing that forced her hand there. I said it, it is quite obvious that originally she had no plan to murder Robert until Joff was old enough to rule in his own right. That would greatly reduce the risk of a succession war or trouble in general.

But, of course, Robert's own restless personality, the decline of their 'marriage', Renly's schemes, etc. created a lot of problems.

Stannis would have been the least of her problems as his unpopularity made any bid for the throne he might make effectively a joke.

It is kind of silly that Tywin views him as the greatest danger because he clearly never was before he started to fuck a sorceress and used her to murder his enemies from afar.

In that context I'd also like to say that Tyrion is actually silly to a point in his advice that Cersei doesn't rip out tongues repeating the twincest story. Yes, it reveals that she is angry about that story. But so what? She is angry. Why shouldn't she show it? She would be angry about that if it is true and also if it was false.

There is a very thin line between ignoring dangerous propaganda and beating down to hard on people. You need to be safely in power to have the luxury to ignore damaging rumors. If you allow people to slander you with impunity you will quickly look weak. Daeron II seems to have not cut out the tongues of people who spread the 'Daeron Falseborn' story. Was that good or bad? It seems it was more bad than good as Daemon Blackfyre's bid for the throne may have become a lot easier because many people had heard and ended up believing this tale.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Did you get the 'almost' before 'sociopathic'.

Yes since I actually read the article to quote it.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She loved that boy. And she loves her daughter and her other son. Not in the same way, perhaps, but she loves them. She also loves Jaime, she loved her father to a point, and most likely her mother, too.

The idea that her children are tools for her own aggrandizement is nonsense.

GRRM literally says that you can question whether Cersei really loves her children or whether she only loves them because they are her children, which you previously said was simplistic thinking or whatever. This is also an idea implied by the text. Both the text and the author say this idea is present. So trying to deny it is silly. If you don't like it, fine, but it clearly exists.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

She didn't seem to have the time. I also imagine that killing Stannis would be a lot more difficult. He murder plots aren't the greatest as Bronn showed. Stannis isn't a chronic drunkard like Robert and even then, her plan required a great deal of luck. Robert's hunting party was originally going after a deer.

This is why your insistence that Cersei intended to murder Stannis and Renly when what she says is 'dealing with them' is such a stretch. She clearly never intended to murder Robert openly as both the apparent melée murder plan as well as the actual hunting accident/lucky death show. Because no matter what Lancel and Cersei herself believe - Robert Baratheon wasn't murdered. He was drugged and then he got himself killed. The man was surrounded by attendants and knights, both Renly and Barristan among them ... and he commanded them to stand aside. And while he was drunk he wasn't out of things so much that he still knew he was facing a wild boar. He was clear enough to decide that he wanted to do that and communicate it to his attendants.

Lancel didn't hand Robert the strong wine just when the guy was about the challenge a boar to what amounts to single combat. He was giving it to him throughout the entire trip or at least throughout that particular day. So, yes, Lancel can feel guilty about Robert's death because he contributed to it some manner ... but if you look at things it is quite arrogant to declare he killed Robert with a wine skin because there is just no way of knowing if normally drunk Robert would have slain the boar while not getting injured. Lancel's murder is like you and I drinking shots all evening and then you not stopping me when I declare that I'll drive home in my car. If I get myself killed during the drunk drive you didn't murder me either, even if you got me drunk on purpose and succeeded in getting me much drunker than I intended to be. I would get myself killed, just as Robert did.

So what Lancel and Cersei could effectively pray for was a classical hunting accident. A fatal fall from the horse, say. The chances that Robert's own party would corner the boar and he would have the opportunity to challenge him personally was very slim indeed. And even then things could have gone well for Robert if Barristan had done his duty properly like he did when he tried to distract Drogon from Dany, say.

How Cersei could possibly murder Renly or Stannis is pretty much beyond me. She is not actually a poisoner as her not poisoning Jon Arryn shows. They are both smart and Stannis especially is a very reserved guy - drinking only salted water and eating simple food. That would be hard. Also, murdering two brothers of the king even if disguised as accidents or fatal illness might be too much to fool Robert and other crucial court members.

That is why I think a more realistic take is that she planned to ruin both brothers by driving wedges between them and Robert. Easily done with Stannis, of course, and with Renly she could perhaps have used the gay thing - say, putting Lancel to try to seduce Renly and then having Robert discover it or something like that. Not sure if Robert would care much but it could have been a way to try to disgrace him, especially if they were able to frame it as Renly trying to abuse or rape Lancel.

With Renly a tourney death could also work, but he wasn't a melée guy, I think. Having the Mountain or some other Lannister crony try to murder him in the lists like Ser Hugh would be very risky. Renly isn't a nobody, wears proper armor, and even if it succeeded ... even an accidental kill might cause trouble for the perpetrator later. If the king is pissed he might remember that the Dornish want Gregor's head, after all.

She could have been content if they were both neutralized as lords, i.e. Dragonstone being taken from Stannis and given to Joffrey, the Prince of Dragonstone then ... while Storm's End would be taken from Renly to be granted to Tommen.

As for Bronn: That thing was botched not by Cersei but by Falyse and Balman Byrch. Falyse didn't get the hint that they were to murder Bronn clandestinely and they both were stupid enough to not realize what great a fighter Bronn was. Cersei could have picked smarter cronies, sure, but to murder a Stokeworth kinsman it is no bad idea to actually go through a Stokeworth.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is why your insistence that Cersei intended to murder Stannis and Renly when what she says is 'dealing with them' is such a stretch. She clearly never intended to murder Robert openly as both the apparent melée murder plan as well as the actual hunting accident/lucky death show. Because no matter what Lancel and Cersei herself believe - Robert Baratheon wasn't murdered. He was drugged and then he got himself killed. The man was surrounded by attendants and knights, both Renly and Barristan among them ... and he commanded them to stand aside. And while he was drunk he wasn't out of things so much that he still knew he was facing a wild boar. He was clear enough to decide that he wanted to do that and communicate it to his attendants.

Lancel didn't hand Robert the strong wine just when the guy was about the challenge a boar to what amounts to single combat. He was giving it to him throughout the entire trip or at least throughout that particular day. So, yes, Lancel can feel guilty about Robert's death because he contributed to it some manner ... but if you look at things it is quite arrogant to declare he killed Robert with a wine skin because there is just no way of knowing if normally drunk Robert would have slain the boar while not getting injured. Lancel's murder is like you and I drinking shots all evening and then you not stopping me when I declare that I'll drive home in my car. If I get myself killed during the drunk drive you didn't murder me either, even if you got me drunk on purpose and succeeded in getting me much drunker than I intended to be. I would get myself killed, just as Robert did.

So what Lancel and Cersei could effectively pray for was a classical hunting accident. A fatal fall from the horse, say. The chances that Robert's own party would corner the boar and he would have the opportunity to challenge him personally was very slim indeed. And even then things could have gone well for Robert if Barristan had done his duty properly like he did when he tried to distract Drogon from Dany, say.

How Cersei could possibly murder Renly or Stannis is pretty much beyond me. She is not actually a poisoner as her not poisoning Jon Arryn shows. They are both smart and Stannis especially is a very reserved guy - drinking only salted water and eating simple food. That would be hard. Also, murdering two brothers of the king even if disguised as accidents or fatal illness might be too much to fool Robert and other crucial court members.

That is why I think a more realistic take is that she planned to ruin both brothers by driving wedges between them and Robert. Easily done with Stannis, of course, and with Renly she could perhaps have used the gay thing - say, putting Lancel to try to seduce Renly and then having Robert discover it or something like that. Not sure if Robert would care much but it could have been a way to try to disgrace him, especially if they were able to frame it as Renly trying to abuse or rape Lancel.

With Renly a tourney death could also work, but he wasn't a melée guy, I think. Having the Mountain or some other Lannister crony try to murder him in the lists like Ser Hugh would be very risky. Renly isn't a nobody, wears proper armor, and even if it succeeded ... even an accidental kill might cause trouble for the perpetrator later. If the king is pissed he might remember that the Dornish want Gregor's head, after all.

She could have been content if they were both neutralized as lords, i.e. Dragonstone being taken from Stannis and given to Joffrey, the Prince of Dragonstone then ... while Storm's End would be taken from Renly to be granted to Tommen.

As for Bronn: That thing was botched not by Cersei but by Falyse and Balman Byrch. Falyse didn't get the hint that they were to murder Bronn clandestinely and they both were stupid enough to not realize what great a fighter Bronn was. Cersei could have picked smarter cronies, sure, but to murder a Stokeworth kinsman it is no bad idea to actually go through a Stokeworth.

No. Cersei definitely murdered him and that was her intention. You can believe that she didn't if you want, but that's what happened. And yes. She intended to murder Stannis and Renly too.

[Willam Stark]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei doesn't care about that.

I know, but other women would care and it's still bad.

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't understand Cersei.

You ask for my opinion as a woman, it has nothing to do with understanding Cersei here and I think I understand her better than you do.

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei wants what is her due as a Lannister and the great Tywin's daughter.

Then she wants power, just like I said.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't you just say I should not look at things with the plot in mind?

No I said "don't use the plot to absolve her of her crimes."

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It had nothing to do with power as she could just as well ruled in the name of Robert's minor child - a child he actually fathered.

The child would look like Robert, not Cersei. She sees her children and Jaime as extension of herself, she planned to kill Robert at some point in order to put Joffrey's ass, her own reflection, on the Iron Throne and rule through him.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

She sees her children and Jaime as extension of herself, she planned to kill Robert at some point in order to put Joffrey's ass, her own reflection, on the Iron Throne and rule through him.

Not to mention as soon as Jaime grows a beard and loses his hand (so he is no longer her 'mirror image') she begins to lose interest in him, thinks he's useless and so on.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes since I actually read the article to quote it.

GRRM literally says that you can question whether Cersei really loves her children or whether she only loves them because they are her children, which you previously said was simplistic thinking or whatever. This is also an idea implied by the text. Both the text and the author say this idea is present. So trying to deny it is silly. If you don't like it, fine, but it clearly exists.

Why do you love your children or why do you think your parents love you? Because you/they  are such a great and charismatic person who impressed them/you? Or because you are their child and your child is your child?

Simplistic thinking is the idea that Cersei views her children as 'extensions of herself' - which is viewing them not as independent people but as pawns or tools for her own ends.

That is not how she thinks. Cersei is no great planner or schemer. She has no plan. She is no Littlefinger. Her father decided she would be queen and he made her queen eventually. And she had to roll with that.

Then she hates her drunkard rapist husband and gets back at him with Jaime's help. Putting the children on the throne is what the society wants, what Robert wants, what everybody, she included, wants. It is not her evil plan.

Of course she also has to hide the twincest, has to keep her children on the throne, etc. because she knows they will die if they are cast down. It is win or die - and it is that regardless if they are Robert's or Jaime's children because Renly, for instance, wanted the throne for himself in complete ignorance of the twincest.

Cersei is not thinking about what her children want in life. But she is not alone in this. Nobody ever asked Robb if he wanted to be Lord of Winterfell nor if he was up to it. Nobody asked Ned if he wanted the job. He had to take it or die, remember?

Also, by the way - Cersei getting drunk during the siege of KL is no indication she has a drinking problem. That is the first time we see her like that, and it is an extreme situation. It is quite clear that she eats more and drinks more in the wake of Joff's and Tywin's murder - which is understandable. It is a bad habit and she might be on the way to become an alcoholic but she is not there yet. It is a funny point of AFfC that she starts to become more and more like Robert - drinking too much wine, raping women, enjoying boar meat, being as interested in ruling as Robert, pushing aside/ignoring bad things like Robert would, etc. But that isn't the Cersei of the earlier books.

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. Cersei definitely murdered him and that was her intention. You can believe that she didn't if you want, but that's what happened. And yes. She intended to murder Stannis and Renly too.

LOL, that is just a ridiculous statement. No court of law in the world would condemn Lancel for murder here, nor Cersei. Even if they both were to confess they wanted Robert's death - for murder you actually have to kill someone. And they didn't! Robert got himself killed and neither Cersei nor Lancel put him in a dangerous situation. He did that all by himself like the drunkard moron that he was.

Next time you say it is murder if you pray for somebody to die. Or to wish they would drink your strong wine and then challenge a boar. I mean, this entire thing is quite silly as a murder conspiracy. If it had been actual poison, sure. But feeding an alcoholic strong wine - and an alcoholic of Robert's size and apparent stamina - is not murder.

The only people who think Cersei murdered Robert are the morons who heard Lancel's silly confession. The Kingslayer with a wine skin ... riiight!

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

I know, but other women would care and it's still bad.

I daresay a lot of women who like to be courageous enough to fuck their husband they can't divorce and who demands children with them while raping them and cheating on them in exactly that manner.

And I'm sure many a woman in even remotely the same position as Cersei pulled something like that quite successfully. It is not that hard to pull a Cersei in real life since actual human genetics are, you know, not that simple. 

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

You ask for my opinion as a woman, it has nothing to do with understanding Cersei here and I think I understand her better than you do.

I asked about you putting yourself in the shoes of a Cersei-like woman with her entitlement and set of values. A noblewoman of highest birth and greatest wealth, effectively old East Coast money dialed up in the extreme.

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Then she wants power, just like I said.

No, she wants some bloody respect. Power and prestige and wealth she has both as the queen and a Lannister of Casterly Rock. But Robert never respected her.

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

No I said "don't use the plot to absolve her of her crimes."

Well, you shouldn't use later plot developments to explain pre-trauma, pre-paranoia aspects of her character. Because it makes no sense.

Cersei was, for instance, fine with Joff's betrothal to Sansa, never mind the Maggy prophecy. That only became a real issue once she started to believe in the prophecy because parts of it became true.

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

The child would look like Robert, not Cersei. She sees her children and Jaime as extension of herself, she planned to kill Robert at some point in order to put Joffrey's ass, her own reflection, on the Iron Throne and rule through him.

LOL, what? That is the silly simplistic interpretation I'm talking about. There is not the slightest indication that Cersei ever planned to rule through Joffrey. Joffrey ruled her even if while she was Queen Regent. She couldn't control him and made no effort of doing so. He executed Ned and she never punished him for that, didn't even investigate how this could happen. When he makes ridiculously cruel sentences like forcing two knights to fight to death she doesn't overrule him. And so on and so forth.

Cersei ain't using Joff as pawn. He actually manipulates and exploits her. If Joff had had a brain and had been a bit older he would have played his mommy like fiddle. And once her regency was over he would have sent her back to Casterly Rock in a heart beat because she was nothing but weak-willed, stupid woman. Joffrey actually looks down on Cersei because he can play her. And because she weeps.

And Jaime Cersei treats as her knight in shining armor. He serves her, yes, like a knight in the songs does the bidding of the lady he likes to admire from afar fuck. That is also no relationship of equals as the knight humbles himself in front of the lady he sucks up to.

There is narcissism there, to be sure, especially regarding the looks. But that goes both ways and it is clear that Jaime is the guy who is more self-involved than Cersei ever could be because Jaime never faced any limit, never met any real resistance in his life until he lost his hand. He could do everything, got away with everything. And even when he did something horrible he was too self-involved, too entitled and arrogant to actually explain his actions and perhaps gain forgiveness (from Ned or the world at large) because for Jaime Lannister only Jaime Lannister himself is a proper judge. Nobody else.

Not to mention that he actually thinks he can marry his sister and live with her as husband and wife.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not to mention as soon as Jaime grows a beard and loses his hand (so he is no longer her 'mirror image') she begins to lose interest in him, thinks he's useless and so on.

Jaime is completely useless without his hand. But, yeah, Cersei is a bitch for beauty. Sue her. Most people are.

[SaffronLady]

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not to mention as soon as Jaime grows a beard and loses his hand (so he is no longer her 'mirror image') she begins to lose interest in him, thinks he's useless and so on.

It's a little interesting here with how golden-haired green-eyed Jaime was struck off the pedestal of one of the best swordsmen in the 7k (a hero in the conventional sense) by losing his hand. Why, in Cersei's mind, her brother losing his sword hand and becoming so unkempt might even be called ... a fool.

You know, actually, in AFFC Cersei 2:

Quote

"Jaime . . . I felt so lost with Father dead, I scarce knew what I was saying. Jaime is gallant, but a bit of a fool, let us be frank. Tommen needs a more seasoned man. Someone older . . ."

Quote

"Jaime . . . Jaime has taken vows. Jaime never thinks, he laughs at everything and everyone and says whatever comes into his head. Jaime is a handsome fool."

"And yet he was your first choice to be the King's Hand. What does that make you, Cersei?"

And of course, going along, as his twin Cersei isn't seen as much better.

AFFC Cersei 5:

Quote

Jaime raised his eyes. "I love you too, sweet sister. But you're a fool. A beautiful golden fool."

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, by the way - Cersei getting drunk during the siege of KL is no indication she has a drinking problem.

I never said it did. I was disputing your claim:

Quote

She drinks heavily because she wants to.

Quote

LOL, that happens in AFfC after she went through a lot. You guys don't get the structure of the story, do you? The Cersei of AFfC isn't the woman we meet in AGoT

That Cersei only started drinking heavily in AFfC.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Simplistic thinking is the idea that Cersei views her children as 'extensions of herself' - which is viewing them not as independent people but as pawns or tools for her own ends.

Okay, but the author clearly states this is a reasonable interpretation, and it is implied by the text.

[Lee-Sensei]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why do you love your children or why do you think your parents love you? Because you/they  are such a great and charismatic person who impressed them/you? Or because you are their child and your child is your child?

Simplistic thinking is the idea that Cersei views her children as 'extensions of herself' - which is viewing them not as independent people but as pawns or tools for her own ends.

That is not how she thinks. Cersei is no great planner or schemer. She has no plan. She is no Littlefinger. Her father decided she would be queen and he made her queen eventually. And she had to roll with that.

Then she hates her drunkard rapist husband and gets back at him with Jaime's help. Putting the children on the throne is what the society wants, what Robert wants, what everybody, she included, wants. It is not her evil plan.

Of course she also has to hide the twincest, has to keep her children on the throne, etc. because she knows they will die if they are cast down. It is win or die - and it is that regardless if they are Robert's or Jaime's children because Renly, for instance, wanted the throne for himself in complete ignorance of the twincest.

Cersei is not thinking about what her children want in life. But she is not alone in this. Nobody ever asked Robb if he wanted to be Lord of Winterfell nor if he was up to it. Nobody asked Ned if he wanted the job. He had to take it or die, remember?

Also, by the way - Cersei getting drunk during the siege of KL is no indication she has a drinking problem. That is the first time we see her like that, and it is an extreme situation. It is quite clear that she eats more and drinks more in the wake of Joff's and Tywin's murder - which is understandable. It is a bad habit and she might be on the way to become an alcoholic but she is not there yet. It is a funny point of AFfC that she starts to become more and more like Robert - drinking too much wine, raping women, enjoying boar meat, being as interested in ruling as Robert, pushing aside/ignoring bad things like Robert would, etc. But that isn't the Cersei of the earlier books.

LOL, that is just a ridiculous statement. No court of law in the world would condemn Lancel for murder here, nor Cersei. Even if they both were to confess they wanted Robert's death - for murder you actually have to kill someone. And they didn't! Robert got himself killed and neither Cersei nor Lancel put him in a dangerous situation. He did that all by himself like the drunkard moron that he was.

Next time you say it is murder if you pray for somebody to die. Or to wish they would drink your strong wine and then challenge a boar. I mean, this entire thing is quite silly as a murder conspiracy. If it had been actual poison, sure. But feeding an alcoholic strong wine - and an alcoholic of Robert's size and apparent stamina - is not murder.

The only people who think Cersei murdered Robert are the morons who heard Lancel's silly confession. The Kingslayer with a wine skin ... riiight!

I daresay a lot of women who like to be courageous enough to fuck their husband they can't divorce and who demands children with them while raping them and cheating on them in exactly that manner.

And I'm sure many a woman in even remotely the same position as Cersei pulled something like that quite successfully. It is not that hard to pull a Cersei in real life since actual human genetics are, you know, not that simple. 

I asked about you putting yourself in the shoes of a Cersei-like woman with her entitlement and set of values. A noblewoman of highest birth and greatest wealth, effectively old East Coast money dialed up in the extreme.

No, she wants some bloody respect. Power and prestige and wealth she has both as the queen and a Lannister of Casterly Rock. But Robert never respected her.

Well, you shouldn't use later plot developments to explain pre-trauma, pre-paranoia aspects of her character. Because it makes no sense.

Cersei was, for instance, fine with Joff's betrothal to Sansa, never mind the Maggy prophecy. That only became a real issue once she started to believe in the prophecy because parts of it became true.

LOL, what? That is the silly simplistic interpretation I'm talking about. There is not the slightest indication that Cersei ever planned to rule through Joffrey. Joffrey ruled her even if while she was Queen Regent. She couldn't control him and made no effort of doing so. He executed Ned and she never punished him for that, didn't even investigate how this could happen. When he makes ridiculously cruel sentences like forcing two knights to fight to death she doesn't overrule him. And so on and so forth.

Cersei ain't using Joff as pawn. He actually manipulates and exploits her. If Joff had had a brain and had been a bit older he would have played his mommy like fiddle. And once her regency was over he would have sent her back to Casterly Rock in a heart beat because she was nothing but weak-willed, stupid woman. Joffrey actually looks down on Cersei because he can play her. And because she weeps.

And Jaime Cersei treats as her knight in shining armor. He serves her, yes, like a knight in the songs does the bidding of the lady he likes to admire from afar fuck. That is also no relationship of equals as the knight humbles himself in front of the lady he sucks up to.

There is narcissism there, to be sure, especially regarding the looks. But that goes both ways and it is clear that Jaime is the guy who is more self-involved than Cersei ever could be because Jaime never faced any limit, never met any real resistance in his life until he lost his hand. He could do everything, got away with everything. And even when he did something horrible he was too self-involved, too entitled and arrogant to actually explain his actions and perhaps gain forgiveness (from Ned or the world at large) because for Jaime Lannister only Jaime Lannister himself is a proper judge. Nobody else.

Not to mention that he actually thinks he can marry his sister and live with her as husband and wife.

Apparently the Westerosi courts would, since that's what Lancel confessed to and why she's being accused of regicide.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Apparently the Westerosi courts would, since that's what Lancel confessed to and why she's being accused of regicide.

I guess the Westerosi courts are now the people we turn to when we having proper discussions...?

But then you also think Stannis knows about the twincest. All that's needed for knowledge in your world and the one of the High Septon is a guy believing something hard enough, apparently.

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I never said it did. I was disputing your claim:

That Cersei only started drinking heavily in AFfC.

'Drinking heavily' can mean 'having a drinking habit' Cersei got kind of drunk but once before AFfC - and in an extreme situation - so it is bad to connect non-existing dots there. Also it is a bit of an interpretation of Sansa's that she is that drunk. They are in a full smaller hall, it would be very hot, so her flushed cheeks, etc. might be partially from the wine and partially from the temperature in the hall ... and her fear. We don't know. Sansa isn't an expert on drunkards.

In context it is also quite noteworthy that Cersei drinks more and more later ... but not so much as being really drunk all the time. She never shows visible signs of intoxication. And George could have written her so that she stumbles around drunkenly, talks like a drunk, etc. But he didn't. It can only be subtle if it isn't that bad yet. Tyrion shows us how real drunkenness looks like in his chapters.

She is on the road of becoming Robert but still very far away from it. And she won't have the chance to continue on that path for obvious reasons.

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Okay, but the author clearly states this is a reasonable interpretation, and it is implied by the text.

No, it isn't. He says something you want to shoehorn into a simplistic view. George doesn't say Cersei uses Jaime and her children as extensions of herself. He says she may love her children because they are her children (and not somebody else's). Big deal.

The idea she only loves them because they look like her is quite ludicrous - and also kind of wrong as all look like her and Jaime but Joff is still her favorite. Not because she sees herself in him but because she sees Jaime in him.

That she would likely loathe children of Robert's is hardly a surprise. The guy raped her, and many a woman doesn't exactly like a child of hers that was conceived by way of rape. I understand why Cersei never carried a child of Robert's to term ... and I also understand why other women abort such children, too.

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

- so it is bad to connect non-existing dots there.

No one is doing that except you. I said that she 'drinks heavily because she wants to' which is shown to be true, you say she didn't start doing this until AFfC, I provide clear textual evidence to the contrary.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it isn't. He says something you want to shoehorn into a simplistic view. George doesn't say Cersei uses Jaime and her children as extensions of herself. He says she may love her children because they are her children (and not somebody else's). Big deal.

This is what he says regarding Cersei and her children:

Quote

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? 

It is arguable that Cersei only loves them because they are her children. So the love is not genuine but based on them being Cersei's in terms of image and under her control. This is really clear from the quote and backed up by the text. If you don't like this idea, there is no issue, just say so, but pretending it doesn't exist when the text implies the idea and the author himself says it exists is stupid.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He says she may love her children because they are her children (and not somebody else's). Big deal.

This interpretation is obviously wrong because 'her' is used twice. '...does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they're her children?'. That is what it says, not 'Does she genuinely love the children, or does she just love them because they're her children?.'

Also, I never made the augment that 'Cersei uses Jaime and her children as extensions of herself'. I said that the argument she 'views the children as an extension of herself' is implied by the text and accepted as an argument by the author, so to say it is simplistic is to say the text and author are simplistic, and to say the argument doesn't exist is stupid because both the author and the text say it exists.

Quote

The issue I have is with childish and simplistic interpretations like 'Cersei is a monster', 'Cersei only loves herself', 'Cersei views Jaime and her children as an extension of herself', 'Cersei is like Joffrey', etc.

Quote

Well take that issue up with the text (and by extension the author) since the text is what supports these interpretations.

Edited September 19 by Craving Peaches

[Lee-Sensei]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess the Westerosi courts are now the people we turn to when we having proper discussions...?

But then you also think Stannis knows about the twincest. All that's needed for knowledge in your world and the one of the High Septon is a guy believing something hard enough, apparently.

'Drinking heavily' can mean 'having a drinking habit' Cersei got kind of drunk but once before AFfC - and in an extreme situation - so it is bad to connect non-existing dots there. Also it is a bit of an interpretation of Sansa's that she is that drunk. They are in a full smaller hall, it would be very hot, so her flushed cheeks, etc. might be partially from the wine and partially from the temperature in the hall ... and her fear. We don't know. Sansa isn't an expert on drunkards.

In context it is also quite noteworthy that Cersei drinks more and more later ... but not so much as being really drunk all the time. She never shows visible signs of intoxication. And George could have written her so that she stumbles around drunkenly, talks like a drunk, etc. But he didn't. It can only be subtle if it isn't that bad yet. Tyrion shows us how real drunkenness looks like in his chapters.

She is on the road of becoming Robert but still very far away from it. And she won't have the chance to continue on that path for obvious reasons.

No, it isn't. He says something you want to shoehorn into a simplistic view. George doesn't say Cersei uses Jaime and her children as extensions of herself. He says she may love her children because they are her children (and not somebody else's). Big deal.

The idea she only loves them because they look like her is quite ludicrous - and also kind of wrong as all look like her and Jaime but Joff is still her favorite. Not because she sees herself in him but because she sees Jaime in him.

That she would likely loathe children of Robert's is hardly a surprise. The guy raped her, and many a woman doesn't exactly like a child of hers that was conceived by way of rape. I understand why Cersei never carried a child of Robert's to term ... and I also understand why other women abort such children, too.

Yes. Since we're discussing the books and that was her intention. She murdered her husband. And yes. Stannis knows about the twincest. That's just canon, but I don't want to get back into that "debate" with you.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. Since we're discussing the books and that was her intention. She murdered her husband. And yes. Stannis knows about the twincest. That's just canon, but I don't want to get back into that "debate" with you.

LOL, no. Cersei wanted Robert dead, but neither she nor Lancel murdered him because murder is a very specific crime. It involves people actually doing some murdering. And the murdering in this case was done by a wild boar, not by Lancel and certainly not by Cersei.

Also, I suggest you read some other books than fantasy stuff. The standard definition of 'knowledge' going back to Aristotle is 'justified true belief'. You know whose 'true belief' is not justified as far as we can say? Fucking Stannis'.

Hence Stannis doesn't know about the twincest. He just believes it to be true. Perhaps only because he wants to because he needs an excuse to steal the throne he covets in secret.

I can even tell you what a proper justification there would be - Stannis getting a testimony from Jaime or Cersei themselves like Ned got it. Observing Jaime and Cersei fucking wouldn't prove Jaime's parentage of the children, Stannis being told shit by the lying scumbags Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't be justification, Stannis thinking Baratheon children shouldn't have golden hair wouldn't be justification ... and so on and so forth.

Stannis' belief could be justified in our eyes if we knew why he believes in the twincest story. But we don't. All the ridiculous evidence he and Jon Arryn collect is stuff they want to use to convince Robert and others. Stannis himself wasn't convinced by some book nor by the looks of some bastards.

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

No one is doing that except you. I said that she 'drinks heavily because she wants to' which is shown to be true, you say she didn't start doing this until AFfC, I provide clear textual evidence to the contrary.

Her drinking habit starts in AFfC. That she got drunk earlier is true. But that wasn't your point.

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is what he says regarding Cersei and her children:

It is arguable that Cersei only loves them because they are her children. So the love is not genuine but based on them being Cersei's in terms of image and under her control. This is really clear from the quote and backed up by the text. If you don't like this idea, there is no issue, just say so, but pretending it doesn't exist when the text implies the idea and the author himself says it exists is stupid.

That is just silly. Nobody loves their own children because they are, you know, people. Because they are not when they are born. They are mindless infants. They grow into people, and parents do shape and protect them. If that love is conditional - so what? There is no unconditional love and it is actually not rare that parents dote on children who look like them if they like themselves a lot. Or their spouse/partner. Just as they loathe children who remind them of people they hate - say, a (former) partner who raped them.

Cersei doesn't control Myrcella, for instance, yet still loves her. She also never used her as her pawn, her uncle did, and she was opposed to this, wanted to spare her the fate she suffered with the rapist Robert.

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This interpretation is obviously wrong because 'her' is used twice. '...does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they're her children?'. That is what it says, not 'Does she genuinely love the children, or does she just love them because they're her children?.'

The crucial point there, though, is that Cersei actually does love her children according to George. Not that we do need his word on that - it is in the text of the novels that she loves them.

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, I never made the augment that 'Cersei uses Jaime and her children as extensions of herself'. I said that the argument she 'views the children as an extension of herself' is implied by the text and accepted as an argument by the author, so to say it is simplistic is to say the text and author are simplistic, and to say the argument doesn't exist is stupid because both the author and the text say it exists.

Cersei loving her children because they are her children doesn't equal her 'viewing the children as an extension of herself'. It just means that her love is colored or influenced by her own self-love. But Cersei's children are quite lucky then as they do look like herself and Jaime so the love they get from their mother is greater than it would have been had they looked like Robert or Rohanne Webber or Jeyne Marbrand.

[Lee-Sensei]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. Cersei wanted Robert dead, but neither she nor Lancel murdered him because murder is a very specific crime. It involves people actually doing some murdering. And the murdering in this case was done by a wild boar, not by Lancel and certainly not by Cersei.

Also, I suggest you read some other books than fantasy stuff. The standard definition of 'knowledge' going back to Aristotle is 'justified true belief'. You know whose 'true belief' is not justified as far as we can say? Fucking Stannis'.

Hence Stannis doesn't know about the twincest. He just believes it to be true. Perhaps only because he wants to because he needs an excuse to steal the throne he covets in secret.

I can even tell you what a proper justification there would be - Stannis getting a testimony from Jaime or Cersei themselves like Ned got it. Observing Jaime and Cersei fucking wouldn't prove Jaime's parentage of the children, Stannis being told shit by the lying scumbags Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't be justification, Stannis thinking Baratheon children shouldn't have golden hair wouldn't be justification ... and so on and so forth.

Stannis' belief could be justified in our eyes if we knew why he believes in the twincest story. But we don't. All the ridiculous evidence he and Jon Arryn collect is stuff they want to use to convince Robert and others. Stannis himself wasn't convinced by some book nor by the looks of some bastards.

Her drinking habit starts in AFfC. That she got drunk earlier is true. But that wasn't your point.

That is just silly. Nobody loves their own children because they are, you know, people. Because they are not when they are born. They are mindless infants. They grow into people, and parents do shape and protect them. If that love is conditional - so what? There is no unconditional love and it is actually not rare that parents dote on children who look like them if they like themselves a lot. Or their spouse/partner. Just as they loathe children who remind them of people they hate - say, a (former) partner who raped them.

Cersei doesn't control Myrcella, for instance, yet still loves her. She also never used her as her pawn, her uncle did, and she was opposed to this, wanted to spare her the fate she suffered with the rapist Robert.

The crucial point there, though, is that Cersei actually does love her children according to George. Not that we do need his word on that - it is in the text of the novels that she loves them.

Cersei loving her children because they are her children doesn't equal her 'viewing the children as an extension of herself'. It just means that her love is colored or influenced by her own self-love. But Cersei's children are quite lucky then as they do look like herself and Jaime so the love they get from their mother is greater than it would have been had they looked like Robert or Rohanne Webber or Jeyne Marbrand.

Nope. They murdered Robert, which is why Lancel confesses to it and Stannis knows about the twincestuous fraud. Now stop being a child. I said that we could agree to disagree about that and even let you have the last word. Let it go.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Nope. They murdered Robert, which is why Lancel confesses to it and Stannis knows about the twincestuous fraud. Now stop being a child. I said that we could agree to disagree about that and even let you have the last word. Let it go.

Don't doing it for your benefit but for people who might, you know, buy your faulty reasoning based on non-existent textual evidence.

Lancel is a fool. He wants to believe he is a kingslayer because he wants to be like Jaime. But what he did simply wasn't murder even if he wants to believe it. Wanting to kill someone, hoping somebody will be drunk enough to be killed by a wild boar he himself attacks is not murder in any law book in the world. If George wanted this to qualify as murder he should have come with an actual murder scenario.

That the High Septon gladly uses Lancel's confession as a pretext to accuse Cersei of another thing is hardly a surprise considering his political agenda ... but how random that is you can see from the fact that the wretched guy accepted Lancel as a Warrior's Son rather than to charge him with regicide, too. He confessed to it and gets off the hook? What's that?

'Sins may be forgiven but crimes must still be punished' my ass.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That she got drunk earlier is true. But that wasn't your point.

My point was that she drunk heavily before AFfC, as you well know, because it has been pointed out to you multiple times.

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I never said it did. I was disputing your claim:

That Cersei only started drinking heavily in AFfC.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The crucial point there, though, is that Cersei actually does love her children according to George.

The crucial point there, though, is that George says it is arguable whether Cersei genuinely loves her children.

Quote

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? 

Trying to pretend the quote says something other than what it says is silly.