The Incestuous Nature of the Targaryens is What Doomed Them

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

My point was that she drunk heavily before AFfC, as you well know, because it has been pointed out to you multiple times.

And my point never was that Cersei never got drunk before but that she started drinking regularly in AFfC. That is no general character trait of hers until she suffers multiple severe trauma.

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The crucial point there, though, is that George says it is arguable whether Cersei genuinely loves her children.

No, he just differentiates different types of love without elaborating them. And the crucial part there is that she does love them. And that she does that we know. Joff's death crushes her, and afterwards she is crazy for fear for Tommen's and Myrcella's lives.

[kissdbyfire]

It seems some things are hard for some to grasp. Someone saying they love someone else, or even using this ‘love’ to justify stuff they do doesn’t actually mean they do love them. 
Of course, one can twist the meaning of love until it fits whatever. Should Cersei stand before Solomon in a situation where she saw an advantage in coming out the ‘winner’, that baby would be split in two in a NY minute. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And my point never was that Cersei never got drunk before but that she started drinking regularly in AFfC.

What you said was:

Quote

LOL, that happens in AFfC after she went through a lot. You guys don't get the structure of the story, do you? The Cersei of AFfC isn't the woman we meet in AGoT.

In response to what I said here:

Quote

She drinks heavily because she wants to.

Which was in response to this comment of yours:

Quote

Cersei is not innately sadistic, doesn't drink much to impress little girls,

So your point was actually that Cersei only started drinking heavily in AFfC. Which is contradicted by the text.

As for the frequency of Cersei's drinking, she is present several times when people are drinking wine in AGoT, so given Sansa is drinking wine we can assume she at least had some too. Same for ACoK, and she drinks more when they are all hiding in Maegor's holdfast. She only starts drinking like Robert in AFfC, but she drinks at least moderately before that, and on some occasions heavily.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, he just differentiates different types of love without elaborating them. And the crucial part there is that she does love them.

You are just ignoring what the quote says at this point.

Quote

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? 

It is differentiating between genuine love and love that is not genuine i.e. love which is not real love. Because of the reason for the love. This is, to be frank, really clear for everyone else here because they are not trying to force the quote to mean something other than what it actually means.

Edited September 20 by Craving Peaches

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't doing it for your benefit but for people who might, you know, buy your faulty reasoning based on non-existent textual evidence.

Lancel is a fool. He wants to believe he is a kingslayer because he wants to be like Jaime. But what he did simply wasn't murder even if he wants to believe it. Wanting to kill someone, hoping somebody will be drunk enough to be killed by a wild boar he himself attacks is not murder in any law book in the world. If George wanted this to qualify as murder he should have come with an actual murder scenario.

That the High Septon gladly uses Lancel's confession as a pretext to accuse Cersei of another thing is hardly a surprise considering his political agenda ... but how random that is you can see from the fact that the wretched guy accepted Lancel as a Warrior's Son rather than to charge him with regicide, too. He confessed to it and gets off the hook? What's that?

'Sins may be forgiven but crimes must still be punished' my ass.

No. Lancel just has a moral compass and shows genuine remorse for the bad things that he's done. Unlike Cersei. Who is a monster. That's why he confessed to helping Cersei murder her husband.

Edited September 20 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So your point was actually that Cersei only started drinking heavily in AFfC. Which is contradicted by the text.

Thanks for reminding me what it was about. Cersei doesn't drink too much to impress little girls. Which she doesn't. Which sets her apart from Joffrey. Once Cersei starts drinking she drinks for understandable, stress-management reasons.

Joffrey is a clear male drinker, showing off how manly he is - similar to and emulating Robert there, not his mother.

Also, all people who drink (heavily) of their own free will do it because they want to. What did you intend to make there? A tautology?

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

As for the frequency of Cersei's drinking, she is present several times when people are drinking wine in AGoT, so given Sansa is drinking wine we can assume she at least had some too. Same for ACoK, and she drinks more when they are all hiding in Maegor's holdfast. She only starts drinking like Robert in AFfC, but she drinks at least moderately before that, and on some occasions heavily.

On one occasion that we know of. And I was always talking about her drinking habit - which is something from AFfC.

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is differentiating between genuine love and love that is not genuine i.e. love which is not real love. Because of the reason for the love. This is, to be frank, really clear for everyone else here because they are not trying to force the quote to mean something other than what it actually means.

I don't think there is anything like 'genuine love' regarding to children. You love your children - adopted, biological, etc. - for that very reason - because they are your children. You don't love them because of who they are because (usually) you have them before they are proper persons.

I get what George tries to say there, but the notion that not all parents are like Cersei (to a point) is ludicrous. The very wish to want to have (biological) children is selfish - and also (most of) your wishes for what they do, be, etc. while under your care and in later life.

To Cersei they were a means to punish Robert. That's why they were fathered by Jaime. In that sense she loves them because of what they are, who their actual father is. But she still loves them, so I've no issue with that. Robert and Jaime both never loved them, so why is Cersei's love so bad there?

15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. Lancel just has a moral compass and shows genuine remorse for the bad things that he's done. Unlike Cersei. Who is a monster. That's why he confessed to helping Cersei murder her husband.

He confessed because he became a religious nut in the wake of a serious injury. That is not genuine remorse, it is remorse triggered by fear of the afterlife which is silly.

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The very wish to want to have (biological) children is selfish

What? I don't get this line of thinking at all. Wanting to have children is not selfish (unless you are only having them for selfish reasons). Evolution/Nature/God/Whatever arguably intends for you to have children. If people didn't, the human species would die... Also, you do give up a lot when you have children. It takes a lot of energy. The benefit (from a purely biological perspective) is that the species continues, you pass down your alleles, and because of the way sexual reproduction works, there is a chance of new beneficial alleles being introduced into the population.

I feel like saying wanting to have children is selfish is like saying wanting to eat or drink is selfish.

Edited September 21 by Craving Peaches

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I feel like saying wanting to have children is selfish is like saying wanting to eat or drink is selfish.

In a technical sense, breathing is also selfish. Like if you panic during a mine shaft collapse, you might kill all the people trapped with you because you used up all the oxygen.

Whether Cersei just wants children, wants Jaime's children to secretly spite Robert or use them to collect more power in her hands, it's all selfish reasons.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, SaffronLady said:

Like if you panic during a mine shaft collapse, you might kill all the people trapped with you because you used up all the oxygen.

Yeah, but regular breathing to stay alive I really doubt could be called selfish. I agree Cersei had children for selfish reasons, but I don't think just wanting to have children is inherently selfish, as the other comment I quoted seemed to imply.

[Lee-Sensei]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thanks for reminding me what it was about. Cersei doesn't drink too much to impress little girls. Which she doesn't. Which sets her apart from Joffrey. Once Cersei starts drinking she drinks for understandable, stress-management reasons.

Joffrey is a clear male drinker, showing off how manly he is - similar to and emulating Robert there, not his mother.

Also, all people who drink (heavily) of their own free will do it because they want to. What did you intend to make there? A tautology?

On one occasion that we know of. And I was always talking about her drinking habit - which is something from AFfC.

I don't think there is anything like 'genuine love' regarding to children. You love your children - adopted, biological, etc. - for that very reason - because they are your children. You don't love them because of who they are because (usually) you have them before they are proper persons.

I get what George tries to say there, but the notion that not all parents are like Cersei (to a point) is ludicrous. The very wish to want to have (biological) children is selfish - and also (most of) your wishes for what they do, be, etc. while under your care and in later life.

To Cersei they were a means to punish Robert. That's why they were fathered by Jaime. In that sense she loves them because of what they are, who their actual father is. But she still loves them, so I've no issue with that. Robert and Jaime both never loved them, so why is Cersei's love so bad there?

He confessed because he became a religious nut in the wake of a serious injury. That is not genuine remorse, it is remorse triggered by fear of the afterlife which is silly.

You’re entitled to your opinion. To me it look like he genuinely feels bad about the things that he’s done.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What? I don't get this line of thinking at all. Wanting to have children is not selfish (unless you are only having them for selfish reasons). Evolution/Nature/God/Whatever arguably intends for you to have children. If people didn't, the human species would die... Also, you do give up a lot when you have children. It takes a lot of energy. The benefit (from a purely biological perspective) is that the species continues, your pass down your alleles, and because of the way sexual reproduction works, there is a chance of new beneficial alleles being introduced into the population.

I feel like saying wanting to have children is selfish is like saying wanting to eat or drink is selfish.

Nature gives us a sex drive and carnal desires, etc. The result of this is children in many cases, whether we want them or not.

My point was that any conscious decision to conceive children, to have children is selfish. You want them not for their own sake, but yours. You can't want them 'for their own sake', because you don't know them yet.

Noble families in Westeros produce children because of their selfish desire to continue their bloodline and house, to preserve and increase their own power and wealth. Cersei undercutting in Robert's case is actually a rather subversive thing to do - she takes the one power a woman in this world - motherhood - and turns it into a weapon.

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Whether Cersei just wants children, wants Jaime's children to secretly spite Robert or use them to collect more power in her hands, it's all selfish reasons.

Cersei children give her no power at all. They endanger her status as queen and noblewomen from the moment they are born. They never were a means for a power grab but a means for revenge. And they worked. Cersei did destroy House Baratheon.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You’re entitled to your opinion. To me it look like he genuinely feels bad about the things that he’s done.

Not sure if you get it. Again - Lancel had a near death experience and was fed up with religious afterlife stories till the breaking point. His remorse is not genuine. To be genuine there should not be a life-altering experience but rather, you know, him just thinking about his actions without outside pressures and then coming to the conclusion that his actions were wrong. That would then be worth something in my book.

It is similar with Jaime, really. If you have to lose your hand and martial/manly self-worth to think about yourself and your actions then your 'remorse' and 'introspection' isn't worth all that much.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei children give her no power at all. They endanger her status as queen and noblewomen from the moment they are born. They never were a means for a power grab but a means for revenge. And they worked. Cersei did destroy House Baratheon.

Corlys Velaryon would disagree with his "history remembers names not blood" talk, but I digress.

 

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, but regular breathing to stay alive I really doubt could be called selfish. I agree Cersei had children for selfish reasons, but I don't think just wanting to have children is inherently selfish, as the other comment I quoted seemed to imply.

It is a very complex question discussed for centuries.

[Jaenara Belarys]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The very wish to want to have (biological) children is selfish - and also (most of) your wishes for what they do, be, etc. while under your care and in later life.

That is not selfish, that is simply nature. If you want to have kids so that you can treat them like trophies, that is to some degree selfish. 

But if some newlyweds want to experience having a child, that is not selfish. That's just humans being humans and having kids.

@Lee-Sensei's offered multiple times to just agree to disagree, and I don't know why you're just ignoring that. You look and sound like a fool to everyone else for not cutting your losses in a thread where only boltons are sick would agree with you. 

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nature gives us a sex drive and carnal desires, etc. The result of this is children in many cases, whether we want them or not.

My point was that any conscious decision to conceive children, to have children is selfish. You want them not for their own sake, but yours. You can't want them 'for their own sake', because you don't know them yet.

Noble families in Westeros produce children because of their selfish desire to continue their bloodline and house, to preserve and increase their own power and wealth. Cersei undercutting in Robert's case is actually a rather subversive thing to do - she takes the one power a woman in this world - motherhood - and turns it into a weapon.

Cersei children give her no power at all. They endanger her status as queen and noblewomen from the moment they are born. They never were a means for a power grab but a means for revenge. And they worked. Cersei did destroy House Baratheon.

Not sure if you get it. Again - Lancel had a near death experience and was fed up with religious afterlife stories till the breaking point. His remorse is not genuine. To be genuine there should not be a life-altering experience but rather, you know, him just thinking about his actions without outside pressures and then coming to the conclusion that his actions were wrong. That would then be worth something in my book.

It is similar with Jaime, really. If you have to lose your hand and martial/manly self-worth to think about yourself and your actions then your 'remorse' and 'introspection' isn't worth all that much.

No. I'm not religious myself, but I don't think that religious people only try to be good or repent for their sins out of fear of the afterlfe. Many of them do it out of a desire to be a better person, which is what I see in Lancel.

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. If someone takes a big loss and that causes them to reflect on their past misdeeds or try to be better in the future, I don't hold it against them.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

That is not selfish, that is simply nature. If you want to have kids so that you can treat them like trophies, that is to some degree selfish. 

But if some newlyweds want to experience having a child, that is not selfish. That's just humans being humans and having kids.

I guess you never really thought much about the question why people actually do have children, did you?

Millions or billions of people on this people do have children so they have somebody who takes care of them in old age, for instance. What is that if not selfish? And how is it not selfish to create a new person just for 'the experience of having a child' - as if creating people was an experience for a third party?!

But we digress - nobles and royals in Westeros don't have children for non-selfish reasons at all. They do have children for the dynasty, for the house, for duty. That is also why they marry.

In fact, the debate as such is getting ridiculous as pretty much no noble person in this world 'loves' - or is expected to love - both their spouse or their children in any modern sense.

So faulting Cersei - or anyone, really (Tywin, Stannis, Robert, Aerys, you name it) - for not loving their children in the way a modern parent is expected to is actually quite silly. Those are neither the values those people espouse nor the moral framework of the society they live in.

11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Lee-Sensei's offered multiple times to just agree to disagree, and I don't know why you're just ignoring that. You look and sound like a fool to everyone else for not cutting your losses in a thread where only boltons are sick would agree with you. 

There is no way to 'agree to disagree' when a statement is objectively wrong.

 

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. I'm not religious myself, but I don't think that religious people only try to be good or repent for their sins out of fear of the afterlfe. Many of them do it out of a desire to be a better person, which is what I see in Lancel.

I think then you should have another look. Because Lancel only has this change of heart after a near death experience. Lancel changes, like Jaime, but neither are better people now. Lancel abandoned and betrayed his family and house for the sake of following a guy who persecutes his own relatives (while allowing him to get off the hook, apparently). He exchanged one Cerse/Tywin for another in the High Septon.

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. If someone takes a big loss and that causes them to reflect on their past misdeeds or try to be better in the future, I don't hold it against them.

I don't hold it against him, either. But I'm saying that this is no genuine remorse. It is adapting to a changed environment.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess you never really thought much about the question why people actually do have children, did you?

Millions or billions of people on this people do have children so they have somebody who takes care of them in old age, for instance. What is that if not selfish? And how is it not selfish to create a new person just for 'the experience of having a child' - as if creating people was an experience for a third party?!

But we digress - nobles and royals in Westeros don't have children for non-selfish reasons at all. They do have children for the dynasty, for the house, for duty. That is also why they marry.

In fact, the debate as such is getting ridiculous as pretty much no noble person in this world 'loves' - or is expected to love - both their spouse or their children in any modern sense.

So faulting Cersei - or anyone, really (Tywin, Stannis, Robert, Aerys, you name it) - for not loving their children in the way a modern parent is expected to is actually quite silly. Those are neither the values those people espouse nor the moral framework of the society they live in.

There is no way to 'agree to disagree' when a statement is objectively wrong.

I think then you should have another look. Because Lancel only has this change of heart after a near death experience. Lancel changes, like Jaime, but neither are better people now. Lancel abandoned and betrayed his family and house for the sake of following a guy who persecutes his own relatives (while allowing him to get off the hook, apparently). He exchanged one Cerse/Tywin for another in the High Septon.

I don't hold it against him, either. But I'm saying that this is no genuine remorse. It is adapting to a changed environment.

Yes. You are objectively wrong. By persecute his own relatives, you mean hold them accountable for their crimes and transgressions. And I haven't seen anything that would put the High Septon in the same class as Cersei or Tywin. Maybe I'm forgetting something though.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. You are objectively wrong. By persecute his own relatives, you mean hold them accountable for their crimes and transgressions. And I haven't seen anything that would put the High Septon in the same class as Cersei or Tywin. Maybe I'm forgetting something though.

Again, Lancel doesn't pay for his crimes, does he? He is 'the kingslayer', not Cersei, yet he is not on trial but a Warrior's Son now. Also, he had sex with Cersei. Yet only the Kettleblacks are imprisoned for this. I wonder why that is...?

The sparrows and their leader are after Tommen and Myrcella. That is why Cersei's trial also includes the twincest. The High Septon is building a theocracy where the Faith of the Seven rules the Iron Throne.

Lancel betrays his house and family and king by turning against Tommen - especially if he believes the guy to be his double cousin once removed through Jaime and Cersei.

[Lee-Sensei]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, Lancel doesn't pay for his crimes, does he? He is 'the kingslayer', not Cersei, yet he is not on trial but a Warrior's Son now. Also, he had sex with Cersei. Yet only the Kettleblacks are imprisoned for this. I wonder why that is...?

The sparrows and their leader are after Tommen and Myrcella. That is why Cersei's trial also includes the twincest. The High Septon is building a theocracy where the Faith of the Seven rules the Iron Throne.

Lancel betrays his house and family and king by turning against Tommen - especially if he believes the guy to be his double cousin once removed through Jaime and Cersei.

Maybe not, but he was 15 (legally not an adult at the time) and repented.

I'm not in favor of theocracy, but that doesn't at all make him as bad as Tywin or Cersei. And Cersei did produce those kids through twincest. That's just the truth.

You mean that he's holding criminals accountable.

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Maybe not, but he was 15 (legally not an adult at the time) and repented.

LOL, do you think fifteen-year-olds aren't executed in this world? I even gave you the duplicitous quote of 'His High Holiness' right there - for Osney and Cersei it is 'sins may be forgiven, but crimes still must be punished'. For Lancel it is 'sins are rewarded by joining the ranks of the Warrior's Sons'.

23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'm not in favor of theocracy, but that doesn't at all make him as bad as Tywin or Cersei.

Cersei herself compares the High Septon to her own lord father, so I'm following her comparison there. And the guy is pretty bad already - using soft and hard torture, public humiliation, etc. He is actually quite like Tywin there, with the marches through the streets.

23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

And Cersei did produce those kids through twincest. That's just the truth.

That isn't the issue - Lancel betrays his king and his family if he supports the twincest case against Cersei. Because it will hurt Tommen and Myrcella.

23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You mean that he's holding criminals accountable.

Lancel should be dead for his crimes. Both for the kingslaying and for having sex with Cersei. Which he did after he turned sixteen. He is criminal himself, and the own standards of the High Septon he should not be in a position to 'hold criminals accountable'. He should be tried and executed.

That he isn't shows that this whole thing is a Faith power grab, not about justice or anything. But to be sure, perhaps Lancel's time will come now. Ser Kevan is dead, so the High Septon could easily enough give Lancel the Cersei treatment. The Cersei treatment was only possible because nobody with real power was willing to defend or save her. She was weak. But it seems clear that Kevan would not permit anyone to treat Lancel the way he agreed they would treat Cersei.

But now ... who knows? Would not surprise me if the High Septon will force poor Lancel to face Ser Robert in the trial-by-combat. He might be, after all, one of her main accusers. That would be an interesting although very short spectacle...

Thinking about the trial, it might indeed go the way that Ser Robert will wipe the floor with anyone who accused Cersei of any wrongdoing during the Faith's investigations.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, do you think fifteen-year-olds aren't executed in this world? I even gave you the duplicitous quote of 'His High Holiness' right there - for Osney and Cersei it is 'sins may be forgiven, but crimes still must be punished'. For Lancel it is 'sins are rewarded by joining the ranks of the Warrior's Sons'.

Cersei herself compares the High Septon to her own lord father, so I'm following her comparison there. And the guy is pretty bad already - using soft and hard torture, public humiliation, etc. He is actually quite like Tywin there, with the marches through the streets.

That isn't the issue - Lancel betrays his king and his family if he supports the twincest case against Cersei. Because it will hurt Tommen and Myrcella.

Lancel should be dead for his crimes. Both for the kingslaying and for having sex with Cersei. Which he did after he turned sixteen. He is criminal himself, and the own standards of the High Septon he should not be in a position to 'hold criminals accountable'. He should be tried and executed.

That he isn't shows that this whole thing is a Faith power grab, not about justice or anything. But to be sure, perhaps Lancel's time will come now. Ser Kevan is dead, so the High Septon could easily enough give Lancel the Cersei treatment. The Cersei treatment was only possible because nobody with real power was willing to defend or save her. She was weak. But it seems clear that Kevan would not permit anyone to treat Lancel the way he agreed they would treat Cersei.

But now ... who knows? Would not surprise me if the High Septon will force poor Lancel to face Ser Robert in the trial-by-combat. He might be, after all, one of her main accusers. That would be an interesting although very short spectacle...

Thinking about the trial, it might indeed go the way that Ser Robert will wipe the floor with anyone who accused Cersei of any wrongdoing during the Faith's investigations.

Yeah. Two adults vs. someone that went to confess his sins and repent.

Did he have his son's 14 year old wife gang raped by his guards?

Tommen and Myrcella are innocent, but Cersei certainly isn't. Again. When you say that he's betraying his family you mean that he's telling the truth about their crimes. Someone could easily say that Cersei and Jaime betrayed their family by having twincest babies in the first place, because it put them all in danger and now a bunch of Lannisters are dead in the war that they started.

Do we know that he only had sex with Cersei after he turned 16?

Yes. Cersei was destroying the country so Kevan wanted her defanged. She also helped corrupt his son and start the war that destroyed his immediate and much of his extended family. I think that his bitterness is warranted.

I doubt Lancel is going to have to fight Robert.

That's certainly possible.

Edited September 22 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yeah. Two adults vs. someone that went to confess his sins and repent.

Cersei also confessed some of her sins. Did that spare her her walk? Lancel is rewarded for his treason and his crimes. No punishment, but status and prestige in his new religious world. In time he might even command the Warrior's Sons.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Did he have his son's 14 year old wife gang raped by his guards?

He had a queen stripped naked and hounded through the streets. He intends to try another queen for non-existent crimes.

But to be sure - the gang rape thing is pretty harmless compared to Castamere.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Tommen and Myrcella are innocent, but Cersei certainly isn't. Again. When you say that he's betraying his family you mean that he's telling the truth about their crimes. Someone could easily say that Cersei and Jaime betrayed their family by having twincest babies in the first place, because it put them all in danger and now a bunch of Lannisters are dead in the war that they started.

When I say he betrays his family I say he betrays Tommen and Myrcella ... not necessarily Jaime and Cersei (although he betrays them, too).

But of course, Lancel is a lesser son of a great house. His owes Tywin his allegiance and also Tywin's heirs. And, of course, also Cersei as his queen. They favored him in a pretty big way ... and now he spits in their faces. And the face of his own lord father.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Do we know that he only had sex with Cersei after he turned 16?

We know Cersei only allowed him to touch her after Robert was dead. But we don't know when his birthday is, so who cares? When he fucks Cersei in ACoK he is sixteen. Not that it matters. There is no age of consent in Westeros and noblemen and noblewomen fuck and marry before they are sixteen all the time.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. Cersei was destroying the country so Kevan wanted her defanged. She also helped corrupt his son and start the war that destroyed his immediate and much of his extended family. I think that his bitterness is warranted.

Lancel wasn't 'corrupted'. He lusted after his cousin and queen and she took advantage of that. Big deal.

The war was started by Tywin and Kevan when Tyrion was abducted - which had literally nothing to do with anything Cersei did. It was the doing of the bloody Starks and of Littlefinger and Lysa. The latter killed Jon Arryn and blamed it on the Lannisters in the letter to Cat - and that is what causes the war, not the twincest.

Bran's fall alone would trigger nothing.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I doubt Lancel is going to have to fight Robert.

Somebody will have to. Osney certainly will have to, but he won't be the champion of the Faith for obvious reasons. And the High Septon wants her to answer the charges of adultery and regicide, too. That only works if he has actual accusers laying such charges at Cersei's feet. And then they will have to face her champion in a trial-by-combat ... or they will have to send their own champions against her champion if they are highborn enough for that kind of thing.

Lancel is actually the only such accuser the High Septon has. He can accuse Cersei of regicide (by also revealing his own involvement which he so far may have actually only confessed to the late High Septon not the new one) and he might even pretend to know stuff about the twincest.

But without Lancel or somebody like him the Faith doesn't have anyone accusing Cersei of any big crime directly. The other stuff she already confessed.