[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[karaddin]

@Corvinus85 I think it's fair to dislike the Avi fight scene for the style of fighting, but I don't think it's fair to hold that against the show. As you say that's become the Hollywood standard and shows/tv are pretty beholden to the current language of visual medium, so unless you're attempting to actually change that language you need to somewhat follow it in order to reach the majority of the audience.

I think the maidens might be an opportunity to somewhat change it, but the best way to do that is fighting with their spears and they needed to do this one unarmed. 

Not suggesting you need to like it, just that I think it's fair to be a shrug/dislike and move on (which for all I know is what you meant anyway).

I've seen some speculation that I think is actually pretty solid about some of the decisions they've made this season which have been less popular - that the impact of Barney leaving and covid restrictions are still having much more of an impact than you'd think from our late 2023 perspective:

The disruptions delayed filming for season 2 and a result of this was that the actor's for Thom and Siuan ran into scheduling conflicts - this part isn't speculation. The suggestion was that it was meant to be Thom backstabbing Lanfear not Moiraine and if you compare what we got in episode 5 it's visually extremely similar to when he killed the female dark friend in the mining village in s1e3. This would also have had Thom with Rand for whatever is coming up at the wedding where he may have been meant to dabble in some casual regicide. Mat should have just been with Perrin, but due to Barney's exit he wasn't in the right place for that. Their first attempt could have very easily been Thom springing him out and traveling to Cairhien with him which would have felt set up from Thom's conversations in season 1 and getting there in time for the above, but then that goes out the window due to losing Thom's actor and they have to pull Min into that plot line.

Because Mat wasn't meant to have his time at TV it also meant that it was too early for the scene I know many people are disappointed by, the fight against Elayne's brothers. I'm less convinced by this one being a casualty and think it may end up on the cutting floor regardless but I'm not a fan of that scene anyway so I'm biased lol.

Siuan's actress was only a partial conflict so she wasn't available for anything in the early seasons but we should still get her later, the impact of this is more minor - some scenes were given to Liandrin instead but I think they worked. It's mostly just people understandably frustrated by not seeing Siuan do things that she really should be around for.

TLDR: Season 2 is still significantly disrupted by the covid lockdowns etc and is left trying to patch things up. If you're one of the people that see improvements from season 1 to season 2 try to keep that in mind and cut them some slack, as the show moves on from this it will slowly pull things back to where they wanted them but the ripples of what they've had to do take time to subside.

[fionwe1987]

Thanks.

I do give them slack for this. And generally for having to work with Amazon, and their "data driven" approach to entertainment, that has given us such incomparable gems like Rings of Power.

But it is fucking hard. If I hadn't read the books and had some affinity for the story and characters that shine through in moments here and there, I wouldn't keep up with this show.

I certainly don't recommend it to anyone. But I'd like to. 

[karaddin]

Yeah I think there are definitely issues imposed by working with Amazon. I also think there's a good chance any other studio would have just canned it given the current trend of the industry.

Almost every show I've ever watched gets better after it's first season as everyone settles into their roles (and I don't just mean the actors), they accumulate assets and sets over the seasons etc. It is being given the chance to improve and I hope to see it continue to do so even as someone that has enjoyed almost all of it. This is one of the things that worries me with how quick fandoms can be to decide an adaptation isn't up to their standard, that they'll kill it before it ever really got a chance to grow.

The One Piece live action has been a welcome surprise on that front with the fans actually giving it a chance.

[SpaceChampion]

Saw a theory that they killed Uno off so they can bring him back as a Hero of the Horn...  LOL this will be head cannon at least until the season finale.

 

Wait, is Uno Gaidal Cain?

Edited September 19 by SpaceChampion

[Scott_N]

17 hours ago, Maia said:

Not this old canard again. Do you seriously claim that an unarmed man taking out a dozen of these trained, armed and armored warriors like in the book would be any less silly?

No, I do not. That would have annoyed me just as much.

[Scott_N]

18 hours ago, IlyaP said:

The books are kinda...about them, at its core, so, uh, not doing that would be fantastically weird.

Well, quite. The point being they can't carry the show because, as actors, they are just not very good. Which is problematic given the show, as you point out, is about them.

[IlyaP]

14 minutes ago, Scott_N said:

Well, quite. The point being they can't carry the show because, as actors, they are just not very good. Which is problematic given the show, as you point out, is about them.

They're...fine? I suspect Donal Finn, once we get to spend more time with him, will be the breakout star in the show, but everyone else is...ok. To be fair, the characters in the books aren't psychologically very deep, and there's not a whole there to work with, as far as what the source material offers. Most of the lines spoken by each character has been in-keeping with what's in the books. 

And if you've read the books, you'll know they're...I guess a bit like the Famous Five, in that they're not profound, or psychologically complex, but they're acceptable, low-calorie disposable fun. But complex they most certainly are not. (Though, I would argue by Path of Daggers Rand is a character with some interesting layers, due to the numerous events he's survived. But we're nowhere near that book yet.)

[IlyaP]

But yeah, basically, @Scott_N, I'd say nearly everyone is handicapped by the [arguably] simplistic source material. That Pike and Hennesy are as magnetic as they are is a testament to their skills as actors. Hennesy does so much with his eyes and body language, and Pike so much with her face and shoulders and movement. 

[karaddin]

Yeah I don't think the kids are bad actors, but I think some of the more experienced actors are putting in performances that are elevating the material that they're working with. Fares Fares is fantastic as Ishy, Natasha O'Keefe was working as Selene and only improved once she's getting to show Lanfear's full personality, and Kate Fleetwood (along with the show writing) has taken a one note villain from the books and made her a complex human character that I can understand but still want to punch in the face.

[Scott_N]

15 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

But yeah, basically, @Scott_N, I'd say nearly everyone is handicapped by the [arguably] simplistic source material. That Pike and Hennesy are as magnetic as they are is a testament to their skills as actors. Hennesy does so much with his eyes and body language, and Pike so much with her face and shoulders and movement. 

Fair points.

[Gertrude]

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Natasha O'Keefe was working as Selene and only improved once she's getting to show Lanfear's full personality,

I was so annoyed at the various reactions to the Lanfear casting because she wasn't a stunningly beautiful young woman. Of course she's beautiful, they'd say, but she's not the most drop dead gorgeous woman in the world, blah blah. Yes, I can read between the lines - she wasn't your ideal teen-aged fantasy women. Now seeing the reaction from many viewers to the full Lanfear treatment, I'd say the casting directors know their stuff. :p

[Cas Stark]

I'm not sure we're going to see any break-out stars emerging from this show, the casting is just not that great for the most part.  Everyone is mostly 'fine' but there is a serious lack of charisma.

[Corvinus85]

13 hours ago, karaddin said:

@Corvinus85 I think it's fair to dislike the Avi fight scene for the style of fighting, but I don't think it's fair to hold that against the show. As you say that's become the Hollywood standard and shows/tv are pretty beholden to the current language of visual medium, so unless you're attempting to actually change that language you need to somewhat follow it in order to reach the majority of the audience.

I think the maidens might be an opportunity to somewhat change it, but the best way to do that is fighting with their spears and they needed to do this one unarmed. 

I don't know if RJ ever said this, but I've imagined that a lot of the Aiel fighting style was inspired by Karate, Taekwondo, and Kung Fu, especially with all the other Asian motifs RJ had going in the series. And those martial arts are also still popular in Hollywood, so why not use them? GIVE ME CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON!!! 

Btw, have I mentioned how much I dislike the Whitecloak costumes? I mean it's in the name why people call them that. But it's really the armored left shoulder that bothers me. Why is that the only piece of armor they're wearing? 

[IlyaP]

25 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Why is that the only piece of armor they're wearing? 

Fashion, darling.

[Ran]

Haven't seen the fight scene, but the actual description of Gaul fighting the Whitecloaks is very much martial arts action movie rather than realism:

Quote

For an instant they were caught by surprise, but an instant was apparently all the Aiel needed. He kicked the sword out of the grip of the first to reach him, then his stiffened hand struck like a dagger at the Whitecloak's throat, and he slid around the soldier as he fell. The next man's arm made a loud snap as Gaul broke it. He pushed that man under the feet of a third, and kicked a fourth in the face. It war like a dance, from one to the next without stopping or slowing, though the tripped fellow was climbing back to his feet, and the one with the broken arm had shifted his sword. Gaul danced on in the midst of them.

He has it in the description of the sword fighting too, at times -- I recall a moment where Rand takes a spinning leap before cutting someone's head off, and that that's actually one of the sword forms.

The man-to-man fighting was never "realistic" in the books, basically. It was "cinematic" rather than realistic.

 

[Myrddin]

19 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Fashion, darling.

No capes cloaks!

[karaddin]

To be fair I don't think Corvinus was objecting on book accuracy grounds, just a failure to make it convincing that regular human beings could do this just with sufficient training.

I think this fight from the first episode of One Piece is the best "1 person wins a fight against a group and makes it look easy" I've seen in a while (ignore the goofy elements if the style isn't for your, I'm talking the fight choreography)

https://youtu.be/72EnZSfQB2M?si=DS2omukOdUv15Dg9

[fionwe1987]

Yeah the books aren't realistic about physical strength and tolerance. The Aiel move as fast as light cavalry, and part of the reason is Aiel Wise Ones have these unique prenatal weaves they use to "correct" issues. RJ doesn't specify genetic engineering, but we know it is a possibility, given that that's something extensively practiced in the Age of Legends to create constructs like the Green Man and the Avendasora tree.

The difficulty is, this doesn't translate well into live action without explanation. I'd honestly have preferred a very cinematic non-realistic fighting style to be used from the beginning, for pretty much everyone. 

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I was so annoyed at the various reactions to the Lanfear casting because she wasn't a stunningly beautiful young woman. Of course she's beautiful, they'd say, but she's not the most drop dead gorgeous woman in the world, blah blah. Yes, I can read between the lines - she wasn't your ideal teen-aged fantasy women. Now seeing the reaction from many viewers to the full Lanfear treatment, I'd say the casting directors know their stuff. :p

Yeah that's pretty much how I interpreted those complaints as well. Suffice to say I wasn't seeing any complaints about how attractive she is from the gay corner of the world I live in though lol. 

[Myrddin]

That's a cool scene, @karaddin. Maybe I should check the show out. Thanks.

That effortless effort and economy of motion is how I pictured Lan, even when employing forms flowing one into the other. Fighting is a duty, not a show.

I always pictured the Aiel to be more flashy for some reason, not that that is supported by the text. I think it's a cultural impression, as the Aiel as a group love to fight. It's a way of life.