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Rhaegar the Overrated


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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not saying it wasn’t a kidnapping. Or that it was. I’m not defending anyone, and I’m not judging anyone. The point I’ve been trying to make all along is just that we don’t have enough information to form an informed opinion. 
 

I also think part of the problem is that it’s been so damn long that readers have been waiting for, if not a final reveal, a wee bit more info. I mean, I’ve been waiting longer than some readers have been alive. :eek:

My point is, even those in Westeros who consider Lyanna and Rhaegar a love story, would still probably acknowledge that Lyanna was kidnapped.  It has more to do with stealing her from her family than it does with how Lyanna felt about the situation.

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5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So while Rober could be a bit miffed that Rhaegar was trying to show him up with his betrothed, it seems very odd that Brandon would be more upset than Robert.  

I think both were angry, but Brandon is more quick tempered and doesn't worry about taking precautions. Perhaps Robert knew better than to cause a scene in front of the crown prince and the king, at least at that time. And pride could have played a factor in Robert's reaction, maybe he didn't want Rhaegar to think it wounded his pride.

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33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. Because even though we know very little, we do know some basic facts that place the Tourney and the alleged kidnapping of Lyanna within a short period of time as shown in the quote I posted. We also know the tourney happened in 281 and the disappearance of Rhaegar and Lyanna in 282. The only possible conclusion is that these two events happened relatively close to each other.

It is not relatively close to each other in any case as Aegon's birth and how long the journey Rhaegar and his companions lie in between. There is nothing wrong with winter first settling in the North - where it would be start until it ended up engulfing KL by year's end. We see the same thing happening now with winter coming - autumn snow storms and snows start in the North and the northern Riverlands and the higher reaches of the Vale rather than in the milder climate of KL.

There is a link there in a narrative sense but quite obviously Harrenhal in itself did not cause whatever the Lya-Rhaegar thing was. They met there, that's it. Rhaegar's later actions are shaped by the birth of the promised prince (in his mind), his desire for a third dragon head, and the inability of his wife to give him a third child. And possibly other prophetic shenanigans.

Crucial is also that no information so far has Elia highly pregnant or visibly pregnant at Harrenhal - which she would be if it was late(r) in the year as Aegon was born late in the year, too. A highly pregnant Elia would most likely not even have traveled or been allowed to travel to Harrenhal. Especially since Rhaegar believed she was pregnant with the promised prince.

33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s a good point.  And if you look at what was the Harrenhal tourney’s most probable inspiration it’s even more head scratching.  The tourney in Ivanhoe is probably the closest parallel.  And in the Ivanhoe tourney, when the mystery knight crowns Lady Rowena, her adopted family doesn’t take offense at all (despite the fact that she was already betrothed) but takes it as a sign of respect for their Saxon family.  It’s only Rowena’s betrothed that takes offense.

So while there is some precedent for Robert being miffed, it’s very odd that Brandon and Eddard seem more upset than him.

Now of course, the choice of blue roses could be the issue if Brandon and Eddard were familiar with the tale of Bael the Bard.

Yeah, I think there could or might be a story about Brandon having some weird issues with either Rhaegar or Lyanna. We know that Ned being absent didn't catch a lot of things that were going on at Winterfell (for instance, Benjen training Lya at arms). But Brandon might have known some things about his sister he did not approve of. He could also have learned something about the things that were actually going on with Lya and Rhaegar at Harrenhal and/or the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree thing.

I think we clearly see a possessive attitude there - Brandon having severe issues with his sister having a mind and will of her own which could easily lead to the Baratheon betrothal being dissolved if other people indulged her into thinking her opinion mattered or she had a right to life choices of her own.

Ned could easily have taken offense because of his friendship to Robert.

Robert's own attitude is also pretty strange there in light of Lya's age. He has to have a very weirdly wired brain to actually view his married royal cousin as a rival for Lya's affection. But that kind of jealousy could have grown earlier at Harrenhal where Robert may have realized that Lya was kind of smitten with or interested in Rhaegar (her weeping at his songs could be one such event).

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it’s undisputed that it had to be a kidnapping, whether or not Lyanna was taken kicking or screaming, or met up with Rhaegar and rode off with him willingly.  The issue was that he took an underage girl from her family without their leave, and with them being unaware of where she was brought.

I think the only criteria that really counts there is if Lya wanted to go with Rhaegar or not. She is old enough to marry at that time, and not the property of her father (and even less so of her brothers). So if she wants to go with Rhaegar it is not an abduction.

And if she was accompanied by guardsmen or men-at-arms who guarded her against her will (at Brandon's or Rickard's or Lord Whent's behest) then Rhaegar would have freed her from those men. He wouldn't have abducted her.

19 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

It's more Rhaegar being a married man with his wife present than Lyanna being betrothed the problem. Had Rhaegar not been married with children, crowning Lyanna wouldn't have make such a fuss.

The son of king known to have had countless mistresses of noble lineages descendant of one of notorious dishonorable man (Aegon IV) who used to take every woman he wanted (married or not) and had several mistresses among nobility, outwardly expressing his interest for their sister ? Brandon and Ned's anger expressed differently was more of a "Lyanna Stark is no Melissa Blackwood !".

That is too harsh a take on things. Honoring a beautiful or prestigious maiden or woman is to be expected at such a tourney. Of course, there can be a romantic or sexual layer or meaning to it ... but it doesn't have to be. It can be seen as a political gesture, the way Aerys and his cronies interpreted.

It can be the decent thing to do - like honoring your own wife would be. It would be the safest, easiest bet. The same would go to honor the maiden in whose honor the tourney is held (the maiden daughter of Lord Walter Whent in the case of Harrenhal).

If Rhaegar had crowned her, nobody would have complained, one imagines. Not even Elia. If Queen Rhaella had been there, if Rhaegar had had a sister, it wouldn't have been wrong or distasteful to honor them.

So, no, such a tourney gesture doesn't evoke the memory of Aegon the Unworthy by default. That is something people have to want to see in such a gesture. Again the comparison with the red rose for Sansa. Joff likely saw that. But he chose to not interpret it as the Knight of Flowers lusting after or trying to woo his betrothed ... but he could have viewed it in such a manner.

It remains definitely a slight to Elia who could have expected that her husband would honor her and not another woman in this fashion. But the conclusion that Rhaegar did honor Lyanna because he lusted after her, was into her, did want to get her attention in a romantic or sexual manner is something that is not plainly there. You have to insert it ... precisely because Rhaegar is already married, does have one child, and another is on the way. Lyanna, on the other hand, is still half a child and no great beauty in a conventional sense. So it is actually quite unlikely that Prince Rhaegar was romantically or sexually interested in Lyanna ... which is why Aerys II didn't think he crowned her for such a reason.

Edited by Lord Varys
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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the only criteria that really counts there is if Lya wanted to go with Rhaegar or not. She is old enough to marry at that time, and not the property of her father (and even less so of her brothers). So if she wants to go with Rhaegar it is not an abduction.

And if she was accompanied by guardsmen or men-at-arms who guarded her against her will (at Brandon's or Rickard's or Lord Whent's behest) then Rhaegar would have freed her from those men. He wouldn't have abducted her.

Lyanna would have certainly been considered the property of her father at that time.  Lyanna was betrothed to Robert without her leave, and everything seems to indicate that this was not an outlier with how marriages were arranged.  Taking Lyanna and deflowering her without her father’s permission would have most certainly been a huge affront (outside of the wildling culture).  

So Rhaegar taking her would have certainly been considered an abduction in Westeros.

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23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But that assumes that crowning Lyanna would be considered a romantic gesture.  It’s more likely that the gesture would have been seen by a third party observer as a sign of respect for Lyanna and her family.

I disagree with that assertion, I believe the fact that "all the smiles died" goes against your idea.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Loras Tyrell gives a red rose to Sansa Stark at the Tourney of the Hand - she is no free maiden but the betrothed of the Crown Prince. Sure enough, a rose isn't the same as the coronation thing there ... but if we imagine little Sansa was honored in that way by a married tourney champion would that be a big deal?

Loras wasn't married and his hypothetical wife wasn't at the tourney. Plus, Loras was giving roses to many girls that day. So those two cases aren't very similar. 

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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51 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

I disagree with that assertion, I believe the fact that "all the smiles died" goes against your idea.

No indication the 'all smiles died' thing had anything to do with Lyanna being honored that way ... but rather with Rhaegar not honoring his wife. Cersei wasn't there nor betrothed at the time ... but we can assume her being honored that would would have had a similar effect.

59 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lyanna would have certainly been considered the property of her father at that time.  Lyanna was betrothed to Robert without her leave, and everything seems to indicate that this was not an outlier with how marriages were arranged.  Taking Lyanna and deflowering her without her father’s permission would have most certainly been a huge affront (outside of the wildling culture).  

So Rhaegar taking her would have certainly been considered an abduction in Westeros.

That is all informal stuff. Yes, betrothals are arranged, but people, even women, still get a choice. While it might be hard to refuse betrothals, it is possible to refuse marriage because the bride and groom are actually asked if they want to marry. (Unless we talk hostages like Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion.)

Defying your father or whoever the head of your family is might have bad consequences for you. Women and children are treated as if they are property. But in fact they are not. As many a woman in the series actually demonstrate in various ways.

39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Loras wasn't married and his hypothetical wife wasn't at the tourney. Plus, Loras was giving roses to many girls that day. So those two cases aren't very similar. 

They are similar in the aspects I mentioned. We have handsome knight sucking up to women with romantic gestures (and one maiden in particular) who are or might be betrothed. Sure enough, it isn't as big a thing as this coronation thing. But it does have symbolic meaning. And people who could be offended ignore it in that case before they feel like it.

The queen of love and beauty thing t is a ritual in the game of chivalry. If I praise a woman's beauty in song and poem in courtly love I might want to fuck her ... but I could just as well praise her beauty because she is also a princess, or an otherwise highborn lady and I want to get favors or other advantages from establishing ties with her family. And the queen of love and beauty thing is essentially the same. It could be personal and romantic and sexual ... or not. It could just be decency (if you crown your old and sickly mother, say), dutiful (if you crown a wife you don't love or desire), political (if your crown the daughter or sister of your liege lord to suck up to him).

In the case we talk about the ritualistic gesture isn't so much the issue - it is the people who watch and take offense with it. Robert and Brandon and Ned have their own issues and we don't really know them in detail so far.

Again - it is clear why people would expect that Rhaegar honor his wife with the crown. It is what most men in his position would do. But even that is not something he has to do. He could honor another woman for a number of reasons. Lyanna is an odd choice, to be sure, but as I wrote above this could easily be his way to honor the female jouster who earlier entered the tourney as a jouster but who couldn't actually win the tourney although she perhaps deserved the laurels of the victor because of her virtuous behavior.

People do make a big thing out of the line 'all smiles died'. But that is a momentary thing, the result of people seeing something that they didn't expect to happen.

This entire thing only becomes important in hindsight - because Lya and Rhaegar end up together. If that hadn't happened this odd thing would be just a footnote in the history of that tourney. Robert's mood would have cooled down for good. Ditto Brandon's. And Elia's mood as well as that of the Dornish actually cools down in the story we get.

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1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

I disagree with that assertion, I believe the fact that "all the smiles died" goes against your idea.

Nah.  That occurs during Ned’s fever dream, the same dream where he reached out and cut himself on the rose crown.  So it’s not an accurate depiction of the reality of the moment, and it’s coming from someone who is not a dispassioned third party.

For Ned, the moment indicates when things started to go wrong, the end of his innocence and the event that brought about the deaths of Lyanna and Brandon.

If you look at a more dispassioned account, look to the Worldbook.  It seems that the primary reaction to Rhaegar’s crowning of Lyanna was confusion.  Why give the crown to Lyanna?

But even Robert who is as hot headed and jealous as they come didn’t come right out and accuse Rhaegar of trying to steal his girl.  Instead, he said it was Rhaegar just giving Lyanna her due.  Even if deep down he probably believed Rhaegar used the moment to upstage him or make him look bad.  

The lickspittles came up with a reasonable conclusion, that Rhaegar was doing it to curry favor with the Stark family.  Of course they also have their own selfish reasons.

But what adds to the confusion is the Stark’s reaction.  There is no particular reason for them to react so negatively to the gesture.  At least no reason on the outside looking in.

But it’s highly unlikely that it was widely seen as a romantic overture at the time, or else the backlash from the Dornes, the Starks, the Stormlands, the Arryns etc would have been much greater at the time.  Instead, until Lyanna’s disappearance, everything pretty much goes back to normal afterwards.

That’s why I suggest that Martin was probably influenced by the Ivanhoe tourney.  The crowning at the Ivanhoe tourney did have a romantic overture, but it’s also apparent that the crowning could have a number of different reasons.  The prince himself was encouraging the mystery knight to crown a lady from a family that he was hoping to win over to his side.

And there is also a very strong likelihood that Rhaegar’s motivation may have been to secretly give Lyanna her due as opposed to a specific romantic gesture at the time.  Especially if Lyanna was secretly the mystery knight, and Rhaegar uncovered her identity prior to the end of the tourney.  But because that knowledge wouldn’t have been known, his gesture just ended up sowing confusion.

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26 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And there is also a very strong likelihood that Rhaegar’s motivation may have been to secretly give Lyanna her due as opposed to a specific romantic gesture at the time.

It's very possible that he wanted to give Lyanna her due for her performance as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. But given that he shortly afterwards decided to make her the mother of his child, indicates that there was more at play there. 

One doesn't necessarily have to exclude the other.

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5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's very possible that he wanted to give Lyanna her due for her performance as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. But given that he shortly afterwards decided to make her the mother of his child, indicates that there was more at play there. 

One doesn't necessarily have to exclude the other.

Maybe, unless the rose crown is sowing confusion among the readers as well…

ETA: One thing can of course always lead to another.  It doesn’t necessarily mean that it was Rhaegar’s intent at the time though.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Nah.  That occurs during Ned’s fever dream, the same dream where he reached out and cut himself on the rose crown.  So it’s not an accurate depiction of the reality of the moment, and it’s coming from someone who is not a dispassioned third party.

I very strongly disagree that the whole dream should be dismissed because it was a fever dream. It seems clear to me that parts of it are indeed memories, and parts are coloured by his fever. I believe the part about all the smiles dying is an obvious memory. 
 

AGoT, Eddard XV

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

The part in bold is where the fever comes in, the dreaming almost waking moment. Above that, again, it reads very much like a memory. 
Also, and this is a minor thing, but when Martin talked about Ned’s fever dream, he had been asked about a different scene, the scene where Ned fights the KGs, a dream that happens much earlier.

 

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I very strongly disagree that the whole dream should be dismissed because it was a fever dream. It seems clear to me that parts of it are indeed memories, and parts are coloured by his fever. I believe the part about all the smiles dying is an obvious memory

I’m not dismissing the dream, I’m just putting it in proper context.  For Ned, Lyanna’s crowning was when all the smiles died, because that’s the moment when everything started going wrong for him and his family.  It doesn’t mean that there was a collective gasp from the crowd as they watched in disbelief as Rhaegar made a public romantic overture to Lyanna.

If that was the case, then the ramifications of the tourney would have been much greater than it was.  At the very least Robert would have reacted more strongly, and Oberyn would have probably confronted Rhaegar as well.

The Worldbook makes it apparent that the initial reaction was that of confusion.  Why did Rhaegar do that?  And why were the Starks so upset?

Edited by Frey family reunion
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5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not dismissing the dream, I’m just putting it in proper context.  For Ned, Lyanna’s crowning was when all the smiles died, because that’s the moment when everything started going wrong for him and his family.  It doesn’t mean that there was a collective gasp from the crowd as they watched in disbelief as Rhaegar made a public romantic overture to Lyanna.

If that was the case, then the ramifications of the tourney would have been much greater than it was.  At the very least Robert would have reacted more strongly, and Oberyn would have probably confronted Rhaegar as well.

The Worldbook makes it apparent that the initial reaction was that of confusion.  Why did Rhaegar do that?  And why were the Starks so upset?


Well, seems you’re moving the goalposts a bit here.
 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Nah.  That occurs during Ned’s fever dream, the same dream where he reached out and cut himself on the rose crown.  So it’s not an accurate depiction of the reality of the moment, and it’s coming from someone who is not a dispassioned third party.

It reads to me as a dismissal when you say “it’s not an accurate depiction of the reality of the moment”. I think it would be more precise to say that it’s not a complete depiction of the event b/c there are actual memories and “fantasy”mixed together. 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

For Ned, the moment indicates when things started to go wrong, the end of his innocence and the event that brought about the deaths of Lyanna and Brandon.

We of course don’t know that this is exactly how Ned views this moment, but I think this is a fair assessment given what we know.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you look at a more dispassioned account, look to the Worldbook.  It seems that the primary reaction to Rhaegar’s crowning of Lyanna was confusion.  Why give the crown to Lyanna?

I’m not sure I would describe the account in TWoIaF as there being confusion, but let’s go w/ that for now. People reacting like that pretty much matches up w/ “all the smiles died” to me. The difference being one is a more clinical description given by a maester writing a history book. The other is how someone directly involved in the events and who lost so much and went through so much remembers it melancholically in a dream while injured, sick, and going through a very difficult moment. 
Another way to put it is, the wording is different and each account focuses on slightly different things but both are describing a level of disruption, because the gesture was highly unexpected. 

From TWoIaF:

“And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her?”

Why? Why did he do it? And if it was meant to be an honour, then why Brandon and Ned reacted the way they did? Mind you, these are rhetorical questions, I’m just pointing to the fact that yes, people were surprised. 
Another thing is, several lords flocking around Aerys to fill his head w/ whispers of conspiracies is pretty much “all the smiles died” using different words in different circumstances. 

 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But even Robert who is as hot headed and jealous as they come didn’t come right out and accuse Rhaegar of trying to steal his girl.  Instead, he said it was Rhaegar just giving Lyanna her due.  Even if deep down he probably believed Rhaegar used the moment to upstage him or make him look bad.  
 

I don’t see it this way, and neither does the WB by the way. It seems Robert just didn’t want to appear to be upset.

“As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince’s gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due … but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.”

<snip>
 

The rest of your post dwells on the same issues so I thought unnecessary to address them again. 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire
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49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:


Well, seems you’re moving the goalposts a bit here.
 

It reads to me as a dismissal when you say “it’s not an accurate depiction of the reality of the moment”. I think it would be more precise to say that it’s not a complete depiction of the event b/c there are actual memories and “fantasy”mixed together. 

We of course don’t know that this is exactly how Ned views this moment, but I think this is a fair assessment given what we know.

I’m not sure I would describe the account in TWoIaF as there being confusion, but let’s go w/ that for now. People reacting like that pretty much matches up w/ “all the smiles died” to me. The difference being one is a more clinical description given by a maester writing a history book. The other is how someone directly involved in the events and who lost so much and went through so much remembers it melancholically in a dream while injured, sick, and going through a very difficult moment. 
Another way to put it is, the wording is different and each account focuses on slightly different things but both are describing a level of disruption, because the gesture was highly unexpected. 

From TWoIaF:

“And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her?”

Why? Why did he do it? And if it was meant to be an honour, then why Brandon and Ned reacted the way they did? Mind you, these are rhetorical questions, I’m just pointing to the fact that yes, people were surprised. 
Another thing is, several lords flocking around Aerys to fill his head w/ whispers of conspiracies is pretty much “all the smiles died” using different words in different circumstances. 

 

I don’t see it this way, and neither does the WB by the way. It seems Robert just didn’t want to appear to be upset.

“As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince’s gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due … but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.”

<snip

 

The rest of your post dwells on the same issues so I thought unnecessary to address them again. 

I don't think Robert was upset by it. He seemed more easygoing in the past.

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16 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don't think Robert was upset by it. He seemed more easygoing in the past.

According to the account in the WB and "those who knew him better" he was. I agree w/ the idea that he was angered but didn't want to show it. 

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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

According to the account in the WB and "those who knew him better" he was. I agree w/ the idea that he was angered but didn't want to show it. 

Those who knew him better sounds vague. To me it sounds like revisionist history. I don't think Robert really hated Rhaegar until the war period, but maybe I'm wrong.

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2 hours ago, Here&#x27;s Looking At You, Kid said:

I'm convinced his father disinherited him and chose Viserys to inherit the Iron Throne. 

The final three Kingsguards who guarded the baby at the Tower of Joy as the rightful Targaryen heir rather than Viserys certainly didn't get that message.

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On 9/22/2023 at 9:29 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Rhaegar makes numerous incompetent decisions.

Quote

 Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them.

Barristan has observed Rhaegar his entire life, and probably has reasons to think the way he does. We as readers don’t know what those reasons are, but he obviously does.

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2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Those who knew him better sounds vague. To me it sounds like revisionist history. I don't think Robert really hated Rhaegar until the war period, but maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I also think if there is any revisionism here it would downplay Robert’s anger, not the opposite, since it is supposed to be pro-Robert. 

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