Do you agree that Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger is Near Pure Evil?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way.

Littlefinger is listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki due to his minor Freudian Excuse and because he seems to have some slight feelings for Catelyn and Sansa but they are considered to be minor preventions. Here is a list of the crimes he has committed which is copied and pasted from his page on the wiki:

• He convinces Lysa Arryn to poison her husband John Arryn.
• He persuades Lysa Arryn to send a letter to her sister Catelyn saying the Lannisters poisoned her husband to increase tensions between the Starks and Lannisters.
• He's lying to Catelyn that the dagger the killer attacked Bran with belongs to Tyrion Lannister. After Catelyn captures Tyrion, his father Tywin attacks the Riverlands in retaliation and kills thousands of villagers. This further escalates the poor relations between the Starks and Lannisters. It's also very likely that the person who was sent to murder Bran with the expensive dagger is actually sent by Littlefinger himself considering that he himself admits to Catelyn that the dagger used to belong to him, but then lies that he lost it to Tyrion in a bet.
• He instructed Lysa Arryn to execute Tyrion Lannister on false charges even though they both know he hasn't tried to kill Bran to escalate the tensions between the Houses even more.
• He pretends to be friends with Ned Stark and does everything in his power to make Ned aware that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are actually children of Queen Cersei Lannister and her brother and don't belong to Robert Baratheon. This causes Ned to try and arrest Cersei. Littlefinger pretends to help Ned by bribing the City Watch, but instead he pays them to fight on Cersei's side and he puts a knife to Ned's neck which leads to Ned's arrest and Ned's execution as well as the deaths of many Stark loyalists who were killed by the City Watch.
• He does all this just to create tensions between Stark and Lannister and to devastate the Seven Kingdoms with a civil war which is why hundreds of thousands of people died, giving him one of the biggest kill counts in the novel series. Because of his actions, the Starks wrongly think that the Lannisters had poisoned John Arryn, they wrongly think that the Lannisters were the ones who sent the man with the dagger to kill Bran which causes Catelyn to arrest Tyrion and try to execute him which in turn causes Tywin Lannister to invade the Riverlands and because of Littlefinger's actions, Ned Stark becomes a Hand to Robert Baratheon and gets executed while most of his men are killed which causes Robb Stark to declare war on House Lannister.
• He writes a letter to Lysa Arryn where he tells her that she should keep her entire army inside the Vale and not help her nephew Robb Stark, even after the latter asks her for help. As a result, the Starks lose the war against the Lannisters and some of them are slaughtered, just as Littlefinger had predicted.
• He conspires with Olenna Tyrell to poison Joffrey, although at first, it seems like a redeeming quality, he only does it to further his ambitions and he doesn't need Joffrey anymore.
• He hired Dontos Hollard to rescue Sansa Stark from King's Landing and then killed him.
• He makes sure that Tyrion (beside Sansa) is framed for Joffrey’s murder and sentenced to death.
• After marrying Lysa Arryn, he manipulates her and pretends to love her, when in fact, he only married her to gain control of the Vale. As soon as he's offered a chance, he pushes her down the Moon's Door and she dies.
• He takes 12-year-old Jeyne Poole to forcibly turn her into a prostitute and whips her, also allowing his clients to rape her. He then offers to Tywin Lannister that he should present her as Arya Stark and give her to the Boltons to marry Ramsay which makes the two of them indirectly responsible for the torture and abuse Ramsay puts her through. It's implied that he treats the rest of his prostitutes in a similar manner.
• He frames an innocent singer for killing Lysa, then blinds him, rips off several of his fingers, and later executes him.
• When he wants to win over one of the lords of Vale, knowing he is a pedophile, he plans to offer him little boys without worrying about them being raped.

Here are also his two moral event horizons that are listed on his infobox on his Near Pure Evil page:

• Orchestrating the War of Five Kings.
• Turning the teenage Jeyne Poole into a prostitute against her will and having her tortured and raped and later arranging her abusive marriage to Ramsay Bolton.

So, do you agree with the decision to list Littlefinger as Near Pure Evil or not?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I don’t know if I would call him pure evil, but he is definitely a villain.

[kissdbyfire]

He is a disgusting villain and I hope his comeuppance is extraordinary.
Same goes for Cersei by the way. 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I'd argue he's pure evil since at this point in his life every decision he makes is for his own benefit. Everyone is a potential victim for him if it means he can get ahead. "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make!" I hope Jeyne Poole puts a legit curse on him.

[sifth]

He's evil, but he also killed Joffrey................so naturally I have conflicting feelings about him, lol

[boltons are sick]

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

He is a disgusting villain and I hope his comeuppance is extraordinary.
Same goes for Cersei by the way. 

And did you also hope for Robb Stark to get a comeuppance for pillaging the Westerlands and killing way more people than Cersei?

Do you hope for Arya Stark to get comeuppance for murdering people?

Do you hope for Daenerys to get comeuppance for burning alive a woman who was trying to avenge the slaughter of her people, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 people who were chosen randomly just to avenge the crimes committed by a few people.

Do you hope for Jaime to get comeuppance for pushing a kid from a tower and raping his sister in front of their son's corpse?

And I could go on.

Nearly every character has done something bad in this series and Cersei is not that different than the average "anti-hero" in terms of morality.

Everything Cersei has done is to protect the lives of herself and her children and she has suffered a lot throughout her whole life, so she has a bigger excuse than some of the characters I just listed. If she didn't think the lives of her children were in danger and wasn't messed up by all the emotional abuse Tywin put her through as well as the sexual abuse Robert put her through she would have been a good person (please, don't tell me she had it better than 99% of women because that's simply not true and it shows you are only interested in how rich someone is without considering that rich or not, abuse is still abuse and I don't recall any of the other women in the series being molded and emotionally abused by a sexist father Tywin the way Cersei is (certainly the Stark girls don't have this as an excuse because they have Ned as a father) or being raped for 14 years straight which is enough to mess up anyone). There is also the whole small thing with Cersei living in constant fear that she and her children are going to die if she doesn't do something about which is something NO other woman has suffered through in the series.

The double standard some fans have for characters they like and characters they don't like is just ridiculous.

 

Edited September 24 by boltons are sick

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

And did you also hope for Robb Stark to get a comeuppance for pillaging the Westerlands and killing way more people than Cersei?

Do you hope for Arya Stark to get comeuppance for murdering people?

Do you hope for Daenerys to get comeuppance for burning alive a woman who was trying to avenge the slaughter of her people, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 people who were chosen randomly just to avenge the crimes committed by a few people.

Do you hope for Jaime to get comeuppance for pushing a kid from a tower and raping his sister in front of their son's corpse?

And I could go on.

Nearly every character has done something bad in this series and Cersei is not that different than the average "anti-hero" in terms of morality.

Everything Cersei has done is to protect the lives of herself and her children and she has suffered a lot throughout her whole life, so she has a bigger excuse than some of the characters I just listed. If she didn't think the lives of her children were in danger and wasn't messed up by all the emotional abuse Tywin put her through as well as the sexual abuse Robert put her through she would have been a good person (please, don't tell me she had it better than 99% of women because that's simply not true and it shows you are only interested in how rich someone is without considering that rich or not, abuse is still abuse and I don't recall any of the other women in the series being molded and emotionally abused by a sexist father Tywin the way Cersei is (certainly the Stark girls don't have this as an excuse because they have Ned as a father) or being raped for 14 years straight which is enough to mess up anyone). There is also the whole small thing with Cersei living in constant fear that she and her children are going to die if she doesn't do something about which is something NO other woman has suffered through in the series.

The double standard some fans have for characters they like and characters they don't like is just ridiculous.

 

Not really, I’m mostly interested in Littlefinger and Cersei having that sweet encounter w/ karma. 

[boltons are sick]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Not really, I’m mostly interested in Littlefinger and Cersei having that sweet encounter w/ karma. 

Yeah, because you don't have enough brain and you are completely unable to do critical thinking and to read the text which is why you make Cersei to be much worse than she actually is and you minmize how traumatic her backstory is. If you were able to read the themes of the story, you would understand that enjoying someone else's misery is something GRRM doesn't want us to engage in and finds it disgusting especially if you enjoy the misery of an abuse victim like Cersei who is simply lashing out at the world.

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Yeah, because you don't have enough brain

Clearly, or I wouldn’t be here replying to you. Maybe I’m not only brainless but a masochist as well. 

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

and you are completely unable to do critical thinking and to read the text

I make mine your words. 

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

which is why you make Cersei to be much worse than she actually is

Projection much? It is you how insist on trying to convince everyone - w/o any success, I might add - that Cersei is much better and less vile than she is. 

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

and you minmize how traumatic her backstory is.

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

If you were able to read the themes of the story,

I believe you’ve already established that I’m brainless, goes w/o saying that the themes of the story would be well beyond my intellectual capabilities.

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

you would understand that enjoying someone else's misery is something GRRM doesn't want us to engage in and finds it disgusting especially if you enjoy the misery of an abuse victim like Cersei who is simply lashing out at the world.

Who died and made you Martin’s spokesperson? 
And by the way, you’re dead wrong - shocking, I know. 

Edited September 24 by kissdbyfire

[boltons are sick]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Who died and made you Martin’s spokesperson? 
And by the way, you’re dead wrong - shocking, I know. 

Theon's torture, Jaime losing his hand, Tyrion and Jorah Mormont being sold into slavery and Cersei's own Walk of Shame are included in the text precisely because the author wants to show that we shouldn't enjoy the suffering of people who may have done bad things and we may not like because we don't know what they are going through and how we would act in their situation. All of these three situations are portrayed with sympathy by the text and there are parallels to draw between them which shows that this is a theme Martin wants to explore. In fact, in many ways Cersei is actually the female equivalent of Tyrion, Jaime and Theon but gets a lot less sympathy from audiences probably because she is a female, so they scrutinize her bad qualities a lot more. Cersei will probably die considering her prophecy, but GRRM is going to portray her death in a way where the text would try to make the readers feel sorry for her in similar manner to how her Walk of Shame is also portrayed. If you are hoping that her death is going to be treated as something for you to enjoy by the text, you will be disappointed because that's not GRRM's style of writing.

And for the record, I am not looking forward to Ramsay getting comeuppance because I think it's stupid, though if something terrible happens to him, I am not going to sympathize but I am also not going to enjoy it because I don't think it's right. I aso think it's stupid to look forward to a fictional character suffering in any way and I have better things to do than that (like studying or actually trying to analyze the themes of the story).

Edited September 24 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

He's evil, but he also killed Joffrey................so naturally I have conflicting feelings about him, lol

I know he's evil but he's really amusing to read about, he's so amoral it's kind of funny, I hope he lives long enough to screw over a few more people like Cersei.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

And did you also hope for Robb Stark to get a comeuppance for pillaging the Westerlands and killing way more people than Cersei?

Do you hope for Arya Stark to get comeuppance for murdering people?

Do you hope for Daenerys to get comeuppance for burning alive a woman who was trying to avenge the slaughter of her people, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 people who were chosen randomly just to avenge the crimes committed by a few people.

Do you hope for Jaime to get comeuppance for pushing a kid from a tower and raping his sister in front of their son's corpse?

And I could go on.

Nearly every character has done something bad in this series and Cersei is not that different than the average "anti-hero" in terms of morality.

Everything Cersei has done is to protect the lives of herself and her children and she has suffered a lot throughout her whole life, so she has a bigger excuse than some of the characters I just listed. If she didn't think the lives of her children were in danger and wasn't messed up by all the emotional abuse Tywin put her through as well as the sexual abuse Robert put her through she would have been a good person (please, don't tell me she had it better than 99% of women because that's simply not true and it shows you are only interested in how rich someone is without considering that rich or not, abuse is still abuse and I don't recall any of the other women in the series being molded and emotionally abused by a sexist father Tywin the way Cersei is (certainly the Stark girls don't have this as an excuse because they have Ned as a father) or being raped for 14 years straight which is enough to mess up anyone). There is also the whole small thing with Cersei living in constant fear that she and her children are going to die if she doesn't do something about which is something NO other woman has suffered through in the series.

The double standard some fans have for characters they like and characters they don't like is just ridiculous.

 

None of the characters that you mentioned here are really comparable to Cersei except for maybe Tywin.

I don't know if I'd call Littlefinger pure evil, but he's definitely one of the worst people in asoiaf in terms of his morality.

[Craving Peaches]

49 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Yeah, because you don't have enough brain

@kissdbyfire has enough of a brain to actually form their own judgements about characters rather than having to rely on internet wikis for basic moral analysis.

50 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

you are completely unable to do critical thinking and to read the text

Rich coming from someone who I have not seen quote said text once in any of their arguments.

How about you do some critical thinking yourself and make a thread on the books rather than the content of random online wikis.

[boltons are sick]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

@kissdbyfire has enough of a brain to actually form their own judgements about characters rather than having to rely on internet wikis for basic moral analysis.

Rich coming from someone who I have not seen quote said text once in any of their arguments.

How about you do some critical thinking yourself and make a thread on the books rather than the content of random online wikis.

I literally quoted a passage from AFFC when you claimed that a Queen wouldn't be executed for simply cheating on her husband and managed to prove to you that you are wrong.

And the reason why I am quoting from these sources is because I agree with their system and I participate there, so I know how they operate and they don't allow their emotions to get in the way of analyzing characters.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

And the reason why I am quoting from these sources is because I agree with their system and I participate there, so I know how they operate and they don't allow their emotions to get in the way of analyzing characters.

Well why do you not have discussions about wikis on dedicated boards? This board is for discussion of books, not wiki character analysis requirements. I don't understand. You will find many more people who actually want to discuss this there.

5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

I literally quoted a passage from AFFC when you claimed that a Queen wouldn't be executed for simply cheating on her husband and managed to prove to you that you are wrong.

Fair enough.

[Kal-L]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

He is a disgusting villain and I hope his comeuppance is extraordinary.

Is it even possible though ? I mean Cersei's downfall has been starting to be detailed from AFFC onwards, making it quite delightful for those who want to see her pay for her actions but most of all, making it real enough. There isn't so much time in hands for Littlefinger to suffer a tiny fraction from what he inflicted to others.

When I look at the horrible fate of someone like Jeyne Poole, I can't imagine what comeuppance would be fitting enough for that monster. Sansa being involved is obviously mandatory to me, with her taking back her identity as Lord Eddard Stark's daughter and breaking his fantasy of Catelyn Stark ever loving him, but sadly that won't be nearly enough.

GRRM has taken so much time and attention in building his villain that I wonder if he will be able to build their downfall.

Edited September 24 by Kal-L

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

GRRM has taken so much time and attention is building his villain that I wonder if he will be able to build their downfall.

I hear you. I also think Littlefinger’s downfall may very well be unsatisfying even if it is epic, something it might not be at all. After all, sometimes very bad people get away w/ things they shouldn’t get away with. Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

[SeanF]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I hear you. I also think Littlefinger’s downfall may very well be unsatisfying even if it is epic, something it might not be at all. After all, sometimes very bad people get away w/ things they shouldn’t get away with. Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

It could easily be that some minor character  just cuts his throat in a quarrel.  

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It could easily be that some minor character  just cuts his throat in a quarrel.  

Yeah, something like that, which would be very unsatisfying. 

[Kal-L]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, something like that, which would be very unsatisfying. 

That's why a character like Brandon Ice-Eyes became a favourite Stark (along with another ruthless figure like Theon Stark). When he dealt with the slavers, he didn't just beheaded them and be done with them, no, he stripped them naked during a particularly cruel winter and then give them to their former slaves who decided of their fates.

The Starks of old didn't kid around.

Edited September 24 by Kal-L