Mayhaps

[Sir Tumbleweed]

The Frey children play a game called 'Lord of the Crossing' as we all know, where if during the course of the game they covertly say 'mayhaps' then they aren't bound by oaths and promises they made in game. Essentially you get to say 'I had my fingers crossed' and push the other kid in the water. This is a part of foreshadowing the Red Wedding when Walder Frey says it while negotiating with Catelyn. On a recent read through though I noticed quite a few other times when characters say mayhaps under sketchy or conniving circumstances. Now I'm not suggesting that these people played or even know about the childrens game, rather that GRRM is planting the word here and there to hint at deception. Here are a few examples.

1) Cressen says mayhaps while suggesting he and Melisandre drink the poisoned wine together. Not much to this one, he said the magic word while trying to trick her. 

2) While Tyrion is trying to find out who is feeding Cersei information he tells Littlefinger, Varys, and Pycelle all differing plots about his plans to marry off Myrcella. What's interesting about this one is Pycelle (who ends up being the mole) says mayhaps while Varys and Littlefinger both say the more commonly used 'perhaps' in their conversations with him. 

3) Jaime has a (in my opinion) funny conversation with Qyburn where the later is treating his stump and is trying to convince him that his arm needs to be amputated. Jaime declines, and Qyburn says mayhaps while offering milk of the poppy for the pain. Jaime suspects that if drinks it then he'll fall asleep and Qyburn will carry on to amputate his arm. I personally think he's correct in the assumption, alas he refuses the medicine and stays awake, saving his arm.

4) This is the obvious one. Walder, the Lord of the Crossing, says mayhaps many times when Robb and Catelyn arrive at the Twins and the Red Wedding ensues.

5) Olenna says mayhaps to Cersei about 'smelling something foul' in the holy sept. She's half joking about one of her relatives and his reputation for breaking wind, but it seems like she's also implying that she's aware of Cerseis crimes that take place there. (Incest and Murder if I'm not mistaken)

6) Qyburn says mayhaps while he and Cersei are forcing a phony confession out of the Blue Bard. 

7) Most glaring of all is when Ned and Jon last speak, Ned tells him 'The next time we see eachother, mayhaps I'll tell you about your mother'.

 

Okay fine so that last one didn't happen, but all the others did they're directly connected to people hiding their motives and telling lies. There's alot of other examples I left out where characters are speculating or bragging about things that turn out to be untrue. By the time Dance of Dragons comes around way more people are saying mayhaps, and we don't have the Winds of Winter to see how those situations turn out.

What do you think? Mayhaps there's a few others I missed?

[Sandy Clegg]

There are 54 'mayhaps' in the main series, 5 in Dunk and Egg, 75 in Fire & Blood (compared to 56 entries for 'perhaps'), and 15 in the World of Ice and Fire. So it's possible George may have used this trick more than once, but it would be really a needle in a haystack kind of deal.

I think the Walder Frey instance is certainly the main one we're meant to read, in retrospect, as being a sign that something dodgy was going on, and it's one of those things that we could have combined with other elements of foreshadowing. The fact that the Frey sigil is that of TWIN castles at the CROSSING, hinting at 'double-crossing' - this is another one that seems to stare at us in the face in hindsight. My own view is that these clues that make sense in hindsight are meant to tell us to watch out for similar things that may be hiding 'in plain sight' out there in the books but we have so far overlooked.

[SerDuncan]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

alas he refuses the medicine and stays awake, saving his arm.

More like shaving

On 9/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

4) This is the obvious one. Walder, the Lord of the Crossing, says mayhaps many times when Robb and Catelyn arrive at the Twins and the Red Wedding ensues.

Rest assured he and his ilk aren't going to escape their due on account of a kid's game

On 9/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

5) Olenna says mayhaps to Cersei about 'smelling something foul' in the holy sept. She's half joking about one of her relatives and his reputation for breaking wind, but it seems like she's also implying that she's aware of Cerseis crimes that take place there. (Incest and Murder if I'm not mistaken)

Tywin did stink

On 9/25/2023 at 4:32 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

5 in Dunk and Egg,

He nodded, wondering if his ears were red.

"A knight with a name, mayhaps?"

"Dunk." Why had he said that? "Ser Duncan. The Tall."

 

I, sorry, Dunk, wasn't ever knighted, is the commonly held opinion. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:42 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

7) Most glaring of all is when Ned and Jon last speak, Ned tells him 'The next time we see eachother, mayhaps I'll tell you about your mother'.

Catelyn : Is this your son? 

Eddard : Mayhaps he is. 

[SaffronLady]

So "mayhaps" is essentially GRRM's "look here" sign?

[Alester Florent]

Quote

Ned sipped his wine and let the man go on. The Knight of Flowers bought all his armor here, Tobho boasted, and many high lords... Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade?

Nope. Jon Arryn was there to see Gendry, and Tobho Mott knew that.

Quote

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

Two "mayhaps". Interesting.

Quote

"I shall pray [for a wind to sweep away the slaver alliance] and make sacrifice. Mayhaps the gods of Ghis will hear me." Galazza Galare sipped her wine, but her eyes did not leave Dany. "Storms rage within the walls as well as without. More freedmen died last night, or so I have been told."

It's a common assumption that Galazza Galare is working with the Sons of the Harpy, and therefore most likely on the side of the slaver alliance.

Quote

"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."

snrk.

Quote

If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm.

Looks like Rhaegar wasn't all he was cracked up to be.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

On 10/15/2023 at 8:06 AM, SaffronLady said:

So "mayhaps" is essentially GRRM's "look here" sign?

Yeah I'd say so. I don't think it's going to give away a massive twist or foreshadow the end of the series, but rather it's an inside joke GRRM created with the audience. He went out of his way to teach us this obscure game and it paid off with the Red Wedding, but he still plays 'Lord of the Crossing' in other scenes. 

A funny example is Creighton Longbough bragging to Brienne about how badass he was at the Blackwater when he's likely just blowing smoke.

[Walda]

Yep, and I think this one is HUGE.

I have been in the middle of a long post with exactly this title on exactly this topic for the last three years. I have been looking into the Mayhaps since the Obama era.

My general theory is that every mention of the word "mayhaps" signposts a play in the Game of Thrones. Every one I have figured out/ half figured out has been paradigm-changing.

The five ASoIaF books and the Princess and the Queen, and The Rogue Prince all use 'mayhaps' in this particular way that has kept me digging in to the topic. But I am not so sure that it is significant in the first Dunk and Egg, even though the word occurs, I can't see any clues to the mysteries concealed/signposted by them. Third one, though, it seems the game's afoot.

I have by no means found the secret of every mayhaps in ASoIaF proper, in spite of my long study of them. However, I have a table of each one and what I have on them. Some time over the next couple of months I will addend this post with what I have got so far - this would be a great puzzle to crowd-solve. It is really too big to solve single-handed.

But, briefly, as a teaser, and without references because I don't have the time right now: I think the first "mayhap" in the book, the one Tobho Mott gave Eddard Stark, not only concealed the fact that Tobho had recieved a commission from Lysa Arryn to make the ornate silver ceremonial sword that Ser Vardis had weilded in his prosecution of Tyrion's trial by combat with Bronn, but also, Tobho Mott wasn't inclined to reveal that he had reforged Stannis's sword "Lightbringer" from an old one, using old spells to do it. And also, his work plays a role in Renly's death. And also, his work is crap. It is missing an essential magical element.

And that is just the first "mayhap". There is so much to this easter egg!

So glad you noticed this too. I searched the archives several times for posts on the topic, and only found a couple of mentions of it's use in the way the Freys of the Crossing play the Game of Thrones, which is pretty self-explanatory, and only the entry point into how the "mayhaps" game that GRRM is playing with us works.

The main rule is, each "mayhaps" signals a play in the Game of Thrones. Innocents like Robb Stark think they can make a play without saying "mayhaps", and then they are undone by their oaths. Lord Walder was careful not to make that mistake.

"Mayhaps" isn't expressing uncertainty. It is never intended as a synonym for 'perhaps' or 'maybe' (you may have noticed that the characters use all three words in the books. I have a sentence where mayhaps and perhaps are used in the same sentence, which needed the latter to express conditionality).

It is frequently used in circumstances when both the speaker and the listener know that what is being asserted is frankly false. Other times, the truth of the matter is beside the point. The point is, it signals a play in the Game of Thrones.

Edited October 26 by Walda

[Mourning Star]

Love me some good mayhaps speculation! And the Ned and Tobho Mott scene is full of imagery I can only pretend to understand, but that won't stop me from trying!

First, I feel it's very important to note the first appearance of "ebony and weirwood" together in the series. This combination also appears in the House of the Undying and the House of White and Black, but not elsewhere. These other two examples being in Essos, and it turns out Mott is from Essos as well, having learned his craft in Qohor. Mott also dresses in white and black. It also seems like it was Varys who paid for Gendry's apprenticeship, he is also from Essos, and has been known to change his face. But, I digress.

I believe we get a series of "death" references in this scene.

The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn. Ned left his horse with Jacks and shouldered his way inside.

Besides the doors of ebony and weirwood stand two stone knights in red armor, a unicorn and a griffin.

The sigil of House Brax is a unicorn. Theirs is a purple unicorn, but they are bannermen to House Lannister, whose color is crimson. "Across the Red Fork. They are flying a purple unicorn below the lion of Lannister."

He was a fool, Tyrion thought, swirling his cup and staring down into the winy depths. Crossing a river at night on a crude raft, wearing armor, with an enemy waiting on the other side—if that was gallantry, he would take cowardice every time. He wondered if Lord Brax had felt especially gallant as the weight of his steel pulled him under the black water.

Lord Andros Brax sank like a stone

The sigil of House Connington is a griffin, a red griffin no less. Jon Connington is suffering from greyscale since saving Tyrion from the river of the Stonemen.

In the Frey mayhaps game, you win or you get knocked in the water. In the game of thrones you win or you die.

Now back to the smithy, above I pointed out that Mott wears black and white, but he also has a silver chain with a saphire in it. Since he supposedly works magic when reforging Valyrian steel, I would propose that this is something akin to the gold choker with a large ruby which Melisandre wears:

The slim young serving girl took quick note of Ned's badge and the sigil on his doublet, and the master came hurrying out, all smiles and bows. "Wine for the King's Hand," he told the girl, gesturing Ned to a couch. "I am Tobho Mott, my lord, please, please, put yourself at ease." He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread. Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon's egg. "If you are in need of new arms for the Hand's tourney, you have come to the right shop." Ned did not bother to correct him. "My work is costly, and I make no apologies for that, my lord," he said as he filled two matching silver goblets. "You will not find craftsmanship equal to mine anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, I promise you. Visit every forge in King's Landing if you like, and compare for yourself. Any village smith can hammer out a shirt of mail; my work is art."

Mott is not from the seven kingdoms.

Mott says his work is costly, and surely this is true in gold and silver for his fine craftsmanship, but what of blood magic? What of reforging Valyrian Steel? What is that cost?

Mott also fills two matching silver goblets. I think there is a whole theme of "cups" throughout the story, the bitter cup of truth, the sweet cup of lies, the cup of ice and the cup of fire, but that's for another post.

Ned sipped his wine and let the man go on. The Knight of Flowers bought all his armor here, Tobho boasted, and many high lords, the ones who knew fine steel, and even Lord Renly, the king's own brother. Perhaps the Hand had seen Lord Renly's new armor, the green plate with the golden antlers? No other armorer in the city could get that deep a green; he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, paint and enamel were the crutches of a journeyman. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew. "The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street," he vowed.

What the Knight of Flowers being mentioned here implies, I do not know, but nothing good I would imagine.

Mott asks three questions.

1. Perhaps the Hand has seen Lord Renly's new armor? 2. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? 3. The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not?

1. The reader has seen Renly's green plate in the first Sansa chapter. He is one of three knights she sees, along side Barristan and Payne. Interestingly, the other two wear enamel and chain, which are the two other kinds of armor Mott directly compares his work to.

One knight wore an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard.
His companion was a man near twenty whose armor was steel plate of a deep forest-green. He was the handsomest man Sansa had ever set eyes upon; tall and powerfully made, with jet-black hair that fell to his shoulders and framed a clean-shaven face, and laughing green eyes to match his armor. Cradled under one arm was an antlered helm, its magnificent rack shimmering in gold.
At first Sansa did not notice the third stranger. He did not kneel with the others. He stood to one side, beside their horses, a gaunt grim man who watched the proceedings in silence. His face was pockmarked and beardless, with deepset eyes and hollow cheeks. Though he was not an old man, only a few wisps of hair remained to him, sprouting above his ears, but those he had grown long as a woman's. His armor was iron-grey chainmail over layers of boiled leather, plain and unadorned, and it spoke of age and hard use. Above his right shoulder the stained leather hilt of the blade strapped to his back was visible; a two-handed greatsword, too long to be worn at his side.
"The king is gone hunting, but I know he will be pleased to see you when he returns," the queen was saying to the two knights who knelt before her, but Sansa could not take her eyes off the third man. He seemed to feel the weight of her gaze. Slowly he turned his head. Lady growled. A terror as overwhelming as anything Sansa Stark had ever felt filled her suddenly. She stepped backward and bumped into someone.

Lord Renly is killed by a shadow, but this is the armor being described here which will be worn into combat and turn the tide of the Battle of the Blackwater.

Barristan is our journeyman Kingsguard, has any other Kingsguard served so many?

And of course, it is Ilyn Payne who will take Ned's Head with the greatsword Ice.

Since I mentioned the stone men and their watery deaths above, let's talk about Cat here, because she too sees Renly's armor:

Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief? 

Cat will end up in the river after the Red Wedding at the Twins, and Lady Stoneheart will emerge. Though I did not quote it above, Ned sees Lord Beric enter Kingslanding through the Mud Gate on his way to visiting Tobho Mott. Seems relevant here, given that Beric will be the one to breath "life" into Cat's body.

2. Mayhaps! Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade?

She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

Let's talk swords!

Ned isn't the only Hand to speak with Mott in the story.

"His lordship wants to see you. The Hand. Lord Tywin."
"I recall who the Hand is, Pod," Tyrion said. "I lost my nose, not my wits."
Bronn laughed. "Don't bite the boy's head off now."
"Why not? He never uses it." Tyrion wondered what he'd done now. Or more like, what I have failed to do. A summons from Lord Tywin always had teeth; his father never sent for him just to share a meal or a cup of wine, that was for certain.
As he entered his lord father's solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, ". . . cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes . . ."
"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire."

I can't help but feel the "bit his head off" line delivered to Pod, a Payne, before Tyrion goes to see the newly reforged pieces of Ned's Ice (which was used by Ilyn Payne to bite of his head) is no coincidence.

Nor is this the only sword we see reborn.

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword." Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. "This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.

Longclaw, Jon's bastard sword, has garnets for the eyes.

Despite what Tywin says, quoted above, the Targaryens appeared to like garnets well enough.

The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

Ned sees the Valyrian Sphinxes in the small council chamber on his arrival, which seemingly come in pairs.

And finally, speaking of faces, we get to the helm.

3. The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street

Ned Stark is not a man children need fear, nor does he commission such a helm, but Dany will visit the House of the Undying and see a direwolf headed vision presiding over a feast of the dead, and it will make her run:

Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.
She fled from him

[Barker_rl]

On 10/30/2023 at 3:41 PM, Mourning Star said:

Love me some good mayhaps speculation! And the Ned and Tobho Mott scene is full of imagery I can only pretend to understand, but that won't stop me from trying!

First, I feel it's very important to note the first appearance of "ebony and weirwood" together in the series. This combination also appears in the House of the Undying and the House of White and Black, but not elsewhere. These other two examples being in Essos, and it turns out Mott is from Essos as well, having learned his craft in Qohor. Mott also dresses in white and black. It also seems like it was Varys who paid for Gendry's apprenticeship, he is also from Essos, and has been known to change his face. But, I digress.

I believe we get a series of "death" references in this scene.

The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn. Ned left his horse with Jacks and shouldered his way inside.

Besides the doors of ebony and weirwood stand two stone knights in red armor, a unicorn and a griffin.

The sigil of House Brax is a unicorn. Theirs is a purple unicorn, but they are bannermen to House Lannister, whose color is crimson. "Across the Red Fork. They are flying a purple unicorn below the lion of Lannister."

He was a fool, Tyrion thought, swirling his cup and staring down into the winy depths. Crossing a river at night on a crude raft, wearing armor, with an enemy waiting on the other side—if that was gallantry, he would take cowardice every time. He wondered if Lord Brax had felt especially gallant as the weight of his steel pulled him under the black water.

Lord Andros Brax sank like a stone

The sigil of House Connington is a griffin, a red griffin no less. Jon Connington is suffering from greyscale since saving Tyrion from the river of the Stonemen.

In the Frey mayhaps game, you win or you get knocked in the water. In the game of thrones you win or you die.

Now back to the smithy, above I pointed out that Mott wears black and white, but he also has a silver chain with a saphire in it. Since he supposedly works magic when reforging Valyrian steel, I would propose that this is something akin to the gold choker with a large ruby which Melisandre wears:

The slim young serving girl took quick note of Ned's badge and the sigil on his doublet, and the master came hurrying out, all smiles and bows. "Wine for the King's Hand," he told the girl, gesturing Ned to a couch. "I am Tobho Mott, my lord, please, please, put yourself at ease." He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread. Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon's egg. "If you are in need of new arms for the Hand's tourney, you have come to the right shop." Ned did not bother to correct him. "My work is costly, and I make no apologies for that, my lord," he said as he filled two matching silver goblets. "You will not find craftsmanship equal to mine anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, I promise you. Visit every forge in King's Landing if you like, and compare for yourself. Any village smith can hammer out a shirt of mail; my work is art."

Mott is not from the seven kingdoms.

Mott says his work is costly, and surely this is true in gold and silver for his fine craftsmanship, but what of blood magic? What of reforging Valyrian Steel? What is that cost?

Mott also fills two matching silver goblets. I think there is a whole theme of "cups" throughout the story, the bitter cup of truth, the sweet cup of lies, the cup of ice and the cup of fire, but that's for another post.

Ned sipped his wine and let the man go on. The Knight of Flowers bought all his armor here, Tobho boasted, and many high lords, the ones who knew fine steel, and even Lord Renly, the king's own brother. Perhaps the Hand had seen Lord Renly's new armor, the green plate with the golden antlers? No other armorer in the city could get that deep a green; he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, paint and enamel were the crutches of a journeyman. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew. "The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street," he vowed.

What the Knight of Flowers being mentioned here implies, I do not know, but nothing good I would imagine.

Mott asks three questions.

1. Perhaps the Hand has seen Lord Renly's new armor? 2. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? 3. The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not?

1. The reader has seen Renly's green plate in the first Sansa chapter. He is one of three knights she sees, along side Barristan and Payne. Interestingly, the other two wear enamel and chain, which are the two other kinds of armor Mott directly compares his work to.

One knight wore an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard.
His companion was a man near twenty whose armor was steel plate of a deep forest-green. He was the handsomest man Sansa had ever set eyes upon; tall and powerfully made, with jet-black hair that fell to his shoulders and framed a clean-shaven face, and laughing green eyes to match his armor. Cradled under one arm was an antlered helm, its magnificent rack shimmering in gold.
At first Sansa did not notice the third stranger. He did not kneel with the others. He stood to one side, beside their horses, a gaunt grim man who watched the proceedings in silence. His face was pockmarked and beardless, with deepset eyes and hollow cheeks. Though he was not an old man, only a few wisps of hair remained to him, sprouting above his ears, but those he had grown long as a woman's. His armor was iron-grey chainmail over layers of boiled leather, plain and unadorned, and it spoke of age and hard use. Above his right shoulder the stained leather hilt of the blade strapped to his back was visible; a two-handed greatsword, too long to be worn at his side.
"The king is gone hunting, but I know he will be pleased to see you when he returns," the queen was saying to the two knights who knelt before her, but Sansa could not take her eyes off the third man. He seemed to feel the weight of her gaze. Slowly he turned his head. Lady growled. A terror as overwhelming as anything Sansa Stark had ever felt filled her suddenly. She stepped backward and bumped into someone.

Lord Renly is killed by a shadow, but this is the armor being described here which will be worn into combat and turn the tide of the Battle of the Blackwater.

Barristan is our journeyman Kingsguard, has any other Kingsguard served so many?

And of course, it is Ilyn Payne who will take Ned's Head with the greatsword Ice.

Since I mentioned the stone men and their watery deaths above, let's talk about Cat here, because she too sees Renly's armor:

Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief? 

Cat will end up in the river after the Red Wedding at the Twins, and Lady Stoneheart will emerge. Though I did not quote it above, Ned sees Lord Beric enter Kingslanding through the Mud Gate on his way to visiting Tobho Mott. Seems relevant here, given that Beric will be the one to breath "life" into Cat's body.

2. Mayhaps! Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade?

She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

Let's talk swords!

Ned isn't the only Hand to speak with Mott in the story.

"His lordship wants to see you. The Hand. Lord Tywin."
"I recall who the Hand is, Pod," Tyrion said. "I lost my nose, not my wits."
Bronn laughed. "Don't bite the boy's head off now."
"Why not? He never uses it." Tyrion wondered what he'd done now. Or more like, what I have failed to do. A summons from Lord Tywin always had teeth; his father never sent for him just to share a meal or a cup of wine, that was for certain.
As he entered his lord father's solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, ". . . cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes . . ."
"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire."

I can't help but feel the "bit his head off" line delivered to Pod, a Payne, before Tyrion goes to see the newly reforged pieces of Ned's Ice (which was used by Ilyn Payne to bite of his head) is no coincidence.

Nor is this the only sword we see reborn.

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword." Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. "This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.

Longclaw, Jon's bastard sword, has garnets for the eyes.

Despite what Tywin says, quoted above, the Targaryens appeared to like garnets well enough.

The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

Ned sees the Valyrian Sphinxes in the small council chamber on his arrival, which seemingly come in pairs.

And finally, speaking of faces, we get to the helm.

3. The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street

Ned Stark is not a man children need fear, nor does he commission such a helm, but Dany will visit the House of the Undying and see a direwolf headed vision presiding over a feast of the dead, and it will make her run:

Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.
She fled from him

Tobho Mott sounds like Top o’ the Motte which is Top of the Motte. He lives at the top of Visenya’s Hill. A Motte is a raised area in a Motte and Bailey castle, the Bailey being the area inside the walls of King’s Landing. 

Edited November 3 by Barker_rl

[Seams]

On 10/30/2023 at 3:41 PM, Mourning Star said:

Love me some good mayhaps speculation! And the Ned and Tobho Mott scene is full of imagery I can only pretend to understand, but that won't stop me from trying!

Your analysis is fascinating and seems to pull out some really key points.

Like others in this thread, I agree that "mayhaps" has to do with a double-cross by the speaker who utters it. But my notion about the "Mayhaps" clue is that it relates to crossing: a river or a boundary of some kind. Comments here have noted the proximity of some of these "mayhaps" comments to doors. I believe that doors and shields are related in ASOIAF. The unicorn / griffin knights on either side of Tobho Mott's door sound like the crest of the British royal family, except they have a unicorn and a lion, I believe. A griffin is part lion but the larger point is that the doorway is like a sigil. Shields are also painted with house sigils. 

The very nice catch about Renly's armor and the contrasting garments of the three strangers in Sansa's POV (Barristan in white enameled scales, Renly in forest green steel plate and Ser Ilyn Payne in iron grey chain mail and leather) might give us a new link between "mayhaps" and the Underworld. This makes sense, as I think many of the mystical "crossings" in ASOIAF are based on the Celtic idea of the Otherworld that is parallel to the mainstream world. 

Not to get too far off on a tangent, but the three strangers are kneeling before Cersei when Sansa sees them. She is in her wheelhouse. I think she is a sort of White Witch character here, with the sleigh. We know that C. S. Lewis starts us off in a Narnia that is under the spell of an ice queen. I think there is a parallel here. And the King's traveling group can't cross from the Stark-controlled area back into King's Landing until this ritual of the three strangers welcoming the ice queen (ice is part of Cersei's name) has occurred. (P.S. Sansa wants to ride in Cersei's wheelhouse, and Arya does not.)

On 10/30/2023 at 3:41 PM, Mourning Star said:

Mott asks three questions.

This is a fantastic catch. As in ancient Celtic (and a lot of other) legends, a thing is significant in ASOIAF if it happens in a group of three. But the nature of the three questions is so important as foreshadowing, and I've never seen anyone highlight them before in this forum. As you note, the three questions are about Renly's armor, whether the Hand (Ned) wants a blade and whether the direwolf is his sigil.

I suspect that Mott is almost doing a "Wizard of Oz" thing here, offering a heart, brain and courage to friends of Dorothy, except Mott is offering these things to Ned. 

The forest green armor (as well as the mentions of the Knight of Flowers) may tell us that the armor symbolizes the return of summer. As you note, this armor outlasts the original wearer but goes on to rally the troops at the Blackwater and win the battle. We know that GRRM has given us another significant green vs. black civil war in the Dance of the Dragons. 

Renly is wearing the green armor when he dies. Brienne has just helped him to put it on, and she is associated with sapphires, as is Tobho Mott. The shadow cuts through the armor and Renly's final word is, "Cold." Readers have all assumed that Melisandre generated the shadow baby that killed Renly because Davos witnesses her generating the shadow baby that invades Storm's End and kills the castellan that Renly put in place. 

But what if the shadow in Renly's tent is Ned Stark? Winter is coming, Renly. We know that Ned supports Stannis as the heir of Robert. And the second question from Mott was whether the hand wanted a blade. At that point, Ned didn't need a blade. But it's also interesting that Renly's breast plate is sliced open by a shadow, not a blade. A shadow doesn't need a blade, either.

The other evidence supporting the possibility of Ned (or a spirit he sends forth) as Renly's killer is linked to Mott's third question: whether the direwolf is the sigil of House Stark. He immediately follows the question with an offer to make a scary direwolf helmet. You know who ends up wearing a scary direwolf helmet? Robb Stark, after the Freys say mayhaps and cut off his head and sew the head of Grey Wind onto the neck of his corpse. The Grey Wind allusion is apt because the sigil of House Stark is not the entire direwolf, it is the head of a direwolf. 

But the visit to Mott's shop is undertaken for the purpose of seeing Gendry - the recycled version of Renly. Gendry looks like his father, but Brienne thinks he is a dead ringer (so to speak) for Renly. 

Ned has already beheaded Lady, the direwolf belonging to Sansa. He sent the wolf's bones back to Winterfell and they are interred in the lichyard, not in the crypt. I think this is significant. The bones are still in this world, not in the underworld. So the spirit can freely roam the earth, presumably. 

(Another tangent: I bet Ned is the hooded man who speaks to Theon at Winterfell. Maybe Ned's bones are already at Winterfell, or he can use the bones of the direwolf, Lady, to gain entry to his old seat.)

On 11/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, Barker_rl said:

Tobho Mott sounds like Top o’ the Motte which is Top of the Motte.

This is also a fantastic catch.

In the past, I assumed that the secret behind Mott's name was the almost-anagram "hot tomb." I think of the Winterfell crypt as a "forge" where dead Starks are recycled into new young Starks. That's why Stark children (and Theon) go down there to play. 

But a double meaning is terrific for Tobho Mott. The inciting incident for all of the action in this series is Jaime pushing Bran off of the Old Keep at Winterfell. The old Motte. Bran's identity is shaped by playing in the crypt but also by falling from the Keep. Both Hot Tomb and Top 'o' Mott. 

To make a long story short, I think Tobho's real magic is his ability to get warriors to slay the season. He prepares Ned to slay Renly (summer) and has prepared the next summer (Gendry), who is working in his back room. Ser Ilyn (dressed in grey in Sansa's first POV) will slay Ned but Grey Wind/Robb will rise again. Symbolism haters will hate this, but I think Ser Ilyn and Ned are linked: both use the sword Ice to administer the King's Justice. Catelyn frees Jaime from a dungeon and then Jaime frees Ser Ilyn from a dungeon. 

Catelynn will rise again as Lady Stoneheart (see the Brax fate, described earlier in this thread - Brax sank like a stone; Catelyn drowns in a river and emerges as a stone) and go after the Frey "Lords of the Crossing," ending their control of that important crossing. 

Mayhaps. 

We do know that Rickon invited the Walders - Catelyn's wards - to play in the Winterfell crypt. I suspect the one remaining Walder ward of Catelyn (I can never remember which one is still alive) will be the sole Frey survivor because creepy little Rickon ensured that he absorbed some Underworld mojo in the Stark crypt. The cycle will continue.

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

The Grey Wind allusion is apt because the sigil of House Stark is not the entire direwolf, it is the head of a direwolf. 

A little problem here. The Stark arms are

Quote

A running grey direwolf, on an ice-white field
(Argent, a direwolf courant cendrée)

You could hardly portray a running wolf, if you only draw its head.

[Seams]

32 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

A running grey direwolf

Oh dear. The show got embedded in my head, yet again. 

I will rethink some of this but a lot of it still applies, I think. Tobho Mott offers a helmet and Robb Stark gets Grey Wind's head. Ned severs the head of Lady the direwolf. 

[SaffronLady]

47 minutes ago, Seams said:

I will rethink some of this but a lot of it still applies, I think. Tobho Mott offers a helmet and Robb Stark gets Grey Wind's head. Ned severs the head of Lady the direwolf. 

I agree with most of your analysis regarding wolf's head symbolism except the part I directly quoted.

[Seams]

On 11/4/2023 at 12:16 PM, Seams said:

But a double meaning is terrific for Tobho Mott. . . . Both Hot Tomb and Top 'o' Mott. 

I'm thinking this probably also applies to The Sworn Sword, in which Dunk makes a big point of describing the too-hot baths that Egg prepares for him in the basement level at Holdfast but then the sleeping arrangement unique to Dunk and Egg on the roof of the tower. Ser Eustace says "Mayhaps" three times in the story. In the other two Dunk & Egg stories, the word appears only once.

Maybe it's a necessary ingredient for a king to be in an underground "tomb" or dungeon as well as the top of a tower.

Tyrion is the only major character to go into the underground wild fire storage area of the alchemists but he also spends time in the ice cells at the Eyrie as well as the Tower of the Hand. 

I believe Tyrion, Shae and Arya are the only major characters known to visit the dragon skulls in the lower level of the Red Keep.