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Was Doran smart or did he just wasted a oportunity?


Arthur Peres
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1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Edric Dayne is 13 and he is currently living in the hell of the Riverlands, he was the squire of a zombie, it's the behavior of Viserys that makes him a delusional fool, the Dayne kid is the Lord of Starfall, descendant of King's, and he has not problem to join baseborn people or to obey to older people

And you're suggesting Viserys can't do what Edric did because he was born wrong or something?

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9 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And you're suggesting Viserys can't do what Edric did because he was born wrong or something?

It's hard to make conclusions without knowing more about the characters. One might as well assume that Darkstar is the way he is because his mom didn't buy him that Green Day album when he was 13.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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14 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And you're suggesting Viserys can't do what Edric did because he was born wrong or something?

Ser. Barry told us that Viserys was rotten even at a young age. We saw adult Viserys bully Dany in each chapter he appeared in. Ned is a strong, kind and honorable kid by comparison. 

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I know you didn't, and your claim was strictly speaking correct, but could be easily misunderstood. I was just adding nuance by pointing out that while having experienced or witness abuse as a child is a factor, the majority of abuse victims do not become abusers. This means it's not just nurture, but also partially nature, which makes sense since certain disorders linked to abusive behavior have genetical components. So, let's say we have an abusive parent with a genetically tied disorder and three children, you probably end up with two normal empathic abused children who do not become abusive as an adult, while the third may have the relevant passed on genes from the abusive parent (nature) and the witnessed or experienced abuse ends up amplifying that (nurture). Whereas good healthy parenting might have nurtured the third child to deal with the genetical limitations better, and even expand limited empathical abilities.

So, you're both right: Viserys inherited some stuff of his father that Rhaegar and Dany didn't, and this put him at a disadvantage to deal with life, but he was also nurtured by his father to be abusive and then his shitty life as a child and young teen only aggrevated it.

Now, I do think Viserys' shitty life is to be taken with some grain of salt. It was more like Dany's experience in Qarth when she lives in Xaro's palace. They were guests with merchant princes, with none of them providing true stabilty let alone material support for an invasion of Westeros. Viserys was like Xalabar in the Free Cities: an interesting guest to introduce to your other guests as entertainment, but nobody caring about his royal aspirations in his far away home. And sometimes, they stayed too long and became viable puppets for political intrigue only related to the Free City's political games, like Xalabar is a convenient victim of Cersei's plot to bring Margaery down.

First, I like what you said. It was a compelling argument. However, I have one small bone to pick, we don't really know what Viserys's shitty life was like. Daenerys is vague at best at what they experienced growing up, however....I don't get the feeling she grew up in luxury (which she was experiencing in Qarth). She had dragons in Qarth, Viserys...did not. And, Daenerys almost gets assassinated in Qarth, so...if that is your argument, what if Viserys is telling the truth, what if he actually had assassination attempts on his life. I think it probably is overexaggerated (due to him being paranoid), but maybe there is more to it than we know. We just don't know. 

To add to this, I think what makes Viserys ...well Viserys is the unique combination of being told by...everyone that he is the King of the 7 Kingdoms, and the heir to the Targaryen legacy, which he grew up believing is 'the' legacy...and he also has absolutely no power or riches of his own (he has no riches, like at all. Everything he has is borrowed. That is made clear at several points in AGoT), is laughed at constantly, called names constantly, and basically treated...as a joke his whole life (think Tyrion I guess, but without any specific target for said mockery like Tyrion had). I think that is a unique circumstance that can fuel ....both narcissism...but also eventually paranoia and the idea that you aren't getting what you deserve. He was told over and over again : "You deserve this stuff." And he didn't have that stuff. So, although I agree with you that his circumstances were not that horrible, I think it was the combination that fueled his eventual delusions, anger, and jealousy (I believe he was jealous of Daenerys). 

Did I say this already? I think Daenerys actually grew up the second least privileged of all our POVs (Davos being number 1 by a mile). Although that is still privileged as compared to peasants, I think what makes that experience unique is that they think they deserve more. I mean, this fandom is full of people defending Stannis for the exact same reason. Stannis grew up extremely privileged, but he constantly acts like he is the most mistreated dude in Westeros. Listen, I think Viserys is a much much worse dude than Stannis. However, if we can talk about Stannis's ...situation being so hard and so we can understand his hard circumstances, than surely we can look at someone with more disadvantages and a worse situation and understand it could effect his behavior. 

My final statement. Viserys is a horrible human being, lol. Like...I think that is the funniest part of all this, I've spent an incredible amount of time talking about a dude I think is horrible. The problem I have with how he is talked about is.......he isn't some pre-destined mad-man or born-to-be evil dick. He is a product of his culture, his society, and his circumstances...with of course some combination with his personality as well. But Viserys chose to be a douche (with his circumstances playing into it). I am basically arguing that Viserys made decisions to be a horrible person rather than being destined to be one, lol. Maybe I should make that part more clear. lol.

Viserys' parents and other parental figures died and left him completely alone at the age of 7(is that right?). He had no friends or companions other than Daenerys (who was like...a toddler at this point). He thinks he deserves love/respect despite not acting friendly in anyway whatsoever (very possibly taught to him just like Joffrey is taught that) and he quite possibly tries to emulate his father, a horrible example, in how to get love or respect he thinks he deserves. You said Viserys's life was still easier than others..because he was wined and dined...but imagine if everyone you ever interacted with was like Xaro or Pyat Pree. That they all wanted something from you, and all also made fun of you behind your back. And so Viserys became angrier and angrier and angrier and paranoid and jealous, etc etc etc. Until he was who he was.

Here, a story from my life. When I was a kid I was bullied a lot, but you know...a lot of other kids were bullied to. When I was in middle school, one of my best friends, another survivor of bullying chose to bully me in order to no longer be bullied. But he chose that. He chose to bully me, and his circumstances (not wanting to be bullied anymore) played into his decision. He was not pre-destined to be a bully. If he had never been bullied, it is very possible he wouldn't have done that. Many other kids were never bullied never got pushed into that choice. Many other kids (including me) had parents who told them right from wrong, and gave them the necessary moral support to make the right decision (his parents were essentially absent from his life). I still hate him though, but...I also pity him, and I always will I guess. 

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

Ser. Barry told us that Viserys was rotten even at a young age. We saw adult Viserys bully Dany in each chapter he appeared in. Ned is a strong, kind and honorable kid by comparison. 

Ned's primary role model we know of..is literally one of the most honorable characters in the entire book series. Viserys' primary role model...was literally called the Mad King. People are not born wrong. They are products of circumstances, and yes decisions they make because of those decisions...but those decisions add up, and at any point something could happen that could change them. 

Take Jaime Lannister. Another character who is an absolute piece of work. He starts out the book by throwing a kid out the window. But much like Viserys, Jaime is the result of bad parenting, culture, family culture (this is particularly bad for both Viserys and Jaime), other people around them, and finally of course, their own choices. But Jaime, as we see very much in the book, eventually starts making other choices. Better ones. Due to the influence..of a good person around him (Brienne). the same thing could (not necessarily would) happen to Viserys given the right people around him, or the right circumstances. 

I've been teaching for 14 years, and there have been countless kids I've seen turn it around. Kids who were mean and nasty and ended up being kind and friendly. Put the right other kids around them, get the right teacher (yeah, I'm tooting my own horn) teaching them good lessons, or have the right influences...and they can and will change. I have never once had a kid I thought was a "lost cause". That doesn't mean that none of those kids will grow up and be criminals or just selfish people....but they weren't destined for it. That's bullshit. 

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53 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ned's primary role model we know of..is literally one of the most honorable characters in the entire book series. Viserys' primary role model...was literally called the Mad King. People are not born wrong. They are products of circumstances, and yes decisions they make because of those decisions...but those decisions add up, and at any point something could happen that could change them. 

 

We don't know the Aerys was Visery's role modle. You're using conjecture. For all we know it could have been Rhaegar or anyone or he possibly didn't have one. All we know for certain is he was rotten at a young age. Yes, some people are born rotten. I've mentioned to you before, many of the examples I've seen in my life. Heck I mentioned to you how Dany in this story was a good person, despite her only living relative being rotten to her, for most of her life. Visery's choose to be a horrible person, his choices were his and his alone.

Sorry, but you're trying to excuse poor behavior, something I can never agree with. Everyone's choices are their own, the good and the not so good.

For the record, I still view Jamie as a horrible person as well. One of the worst people in the series in fact; the man sleeps with his own sister and produced a monster like Joff. He's getting better, but I fully believe he would have stormed River Running, getting everyone killed, if he was forced to. So yea, until Jamie does something truly selfless, I can't view him as a good or decent person.

Edited by sifth
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8 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Going off with Brienne to face the "Hound" and his gang, alone and with no reasonable hope of victory, to rescue Sansa, doesn't count then?

I'll get back to you, once we learn more details about that. It feels a bit messy at the moment. Jamie still supporting both Tommen, despite knowing he's a bastard and Cersei despite knowing she's evil and insane, prevents me from viewing him as a good person.

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8 hours ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but you're trying to excuse poor behavior, something I can never agree with. Everyone's choices are their own, the good and the not so good.

No, I'm not. You are strawmanning my argument. You aren't meaning to, because I truly believe you don't understand my argument. You don't get it. People's choices are always a result of everything they've experienced, and honestly,  simplifying like you have here..is naïve. Extremely naïve. It's a kid's show version of good vs. evil. The bad guys always have reasons for how they ended up the way they were, but much of American media either outright ignores this, or simplifies it. 

No one is born bad. That's bullshit. They become bad. And acknowledging that fact...doesn't make their actions any less hurtful or any less evil. They aren't excuses, and saying they are....is ridiculous, and again...strawmanning the argument to make it easier for you to argue against. 

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7 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Daenerys deserved the pyramid with the swimming pool and Harzoo for what she endured. Abused by the psycho brother and sold to brutal nomads, she clearly developed Stockholm Syndrome, she is the definition of cruel destiny

And if Daenerys turns evil and starts killing everyone, based on the conversation here, I'm sure you'll all say she was destined for it. Even though now when she is doing things you agree with you have empathy her. If you can only have empathy for those people who experienced bad things who you like...that's not actually empathy. 

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@sifth - I have an honest question. What do you think of Tywin or Stannis? What do you feel about Stannis murdering Renly or how he was planning to murder Edric Storm? How do you feel about Tywin using Gregor Clegane essentially as a terror tactic to get what he wants? How do you feel about Tywin murdering Rhaegar's children? 

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5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

@sifth - I have an honest question. What do you think of Tywin or Stannis? What do you feel about Stannis murdering Renly or how he was planning to murder Edric Storm? How do you feel about Tywin using Gregor Clegane essentially as a terror tactic to get what he wants? How do you feel about Tywin murdering Rhaegar's children? 

Pretty sure I made myself clear on Tywin; you honestly think I could like a guy who killed two children and used their bodies as peace offerings?

Tywin is my favorite villain in the series. He's also a horrible, person. A man who lacks any humanity and decency. Gregor is his enforcer, and possibly the worst human in the series; a monster in human flesh.

I'm a bit conflicted on Stannis and Renly. I use to like both, but both come off worse and worse on rereads. Stannis at the very least gets a few bonus points for helping the Night's Watch, something no other king in this series has done, but even considering murdering Edric Storm was rotten; something Stannis himself seemed to realize, though Mel was clearly wearing him down. So Stannis is a bit of a grey character for me, not as bad as Tywin or Roose, but not as good as Ned or Davos.

Edited by sifth
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The War of the Five Kings was very brutal, they killed thousands of people for wealth and power. 

Tywin is a cruel ruler, his soldiers tortured, raped and killed people of the smallfolk in the Riverlands, he ordered the death of Elia's children and of a 3 year old Terbeck thrown out of the window by Armory Lorch, drowning in his shit was the best death for him, it's almost poetic. 

Stannis is an 'honorable' man, but he lacks of cunning and intelligence 

Edited by KingAerys_II
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So is Doran smart or did he just waste a good opportunity watching the 5 kings kill each other?

If he wants precision, I don't see why: with a Dornish queen, surely there were more Dornish at court who were killed when Tywin sacked KL? Why not join the war and avenge them all? Why want to precisely take vengeance on Tywin and his immediate family?

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2 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

So is Doran smart or did he just waste a good opportunity watching the 5 kings kill each other?

If he wants precision, I don't see why: with a Dornish queen, surely there were more Dornish at court who were killed when Tywin sacked KL? Why not join the war and avenge them all? Why want to precisely take vengeance on Tywin and his immediate family?

Who would he side with though. Renly, Stannis, Robb? Does he have any reason to trust any of them?

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Taena is a spy hired by Doran. 

She is Myrish, Myr always had special relations with Dorne, then Doran speaks of "friends of Dorne" in Cersei court when he tells to his nieces about the plan of Cersei to murder Trystane. 

I think he missed an opportunity, but he was scared of the Lannister habit to kill kids

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