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How would you rate Tyrion's performance as a Commander at the Battle of the Blackwater?


Lee-Sensei
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37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Cersei is Queen Regent. She is the ruling sovereign until Joffrey comes of age. She outranks Tyrion.

Tyrion was never trained for this stuff either. He just reads a lot.

Cersei names herself that, but Tywin is in charge and he gave Tyrion control.

Tyrion had a master-at-arms, but even if he had just read about it, that would still make him a better candidate for crafting that plan more than Cersei.

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23 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei names herself that, but Tywin is in charge and he gave Tyrion control.

Tyrion had a master-at-arms, but even if he had just read about it, that would still make him a better candidate for crafting that plan more than Cersei.

No it wouldn't. Masters at arms don't teach about the strategies behind wildfire. They teach combat -- swords, lances, hammers and other weapons of noble, honorable knighthood. 

Cersei did not name herself regent. That's what she is, by right of her being the king's mother. Tyrion was sent to KL to end the follies of her rule, not to depose her. She is still regent, aka acting king, and remained so right up until the faith arrested her. So technically, Tyrion is her servant, not the other way around -- although there is plenty of wiggle room within this hierarchy.

And since there are plenty of references to Tyrion's clay pot strategy for the wildfire and none whatsoever to the hulk on the river (until after he sees it, of course), the logical conclusion is that it was someone else's plan, not his. My guess is if that anyone could come up with a scheme like that, it would be Tywin.

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9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No it wouldn't. Masters at arms don't teach about the strategies behind wildfire. They teach combat -- swords, lances, hammers and other weapons of noble, honorable knighthood. 

Cersei did not name herself regent. That's what she is, by right of her being the king's mother. Tyrion was sent to KL to end the follies of her rule, not to depose her. She is still regent, aka acting king, and remained so right up until the faith arrested her. So technically, Tyrion is her servant, not the other way around -- although there is plenty of wiggle room within this hierarchy.

And since there are plenty of references to Tyrion's clay pot strategy for the wildfire and none whatsoever to the hulk on the river (until after he sees it, of course), the logical conclusion is that it was someone else's plan, not his. My guess is if that anyone could come up with a scheme like that, it would be Tywin.

Where is it stated that the Queen becomes the regent of the Prince if the king is dead? If you believe that Cersei was the one behind that plan instead of Tyrion (who Stannis credits), that's up to you. Nothing at all indicates that to me.

Edited by Lee-Sensei
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11 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Where is it stated that the Queen becomes the regent of the Prince if the king is dead? If you believe that Cersei was the one behind that plan instead of Tyrion (who Stannis credits), that's up to you. Nothing at all indicates that to me.

Precedent states it:

Queen Sharra Arryn was regent for her son, Ronnel

Queen Alyssa Velaryon was regent for her son, Jaehaerys

Lord Lyonel Tyrell's mother served as his regent until he came of age

Lysa Arryn was Sweetrobin's regent

Catelyn Stark was Robb's regent

In these kinds of hopeless patriarchal societies, this is one of the few ways women can exercise political power -- through their sons. And the fact the Cersei declares herself regent and no one, not even Tywin, overrules this means that she is, in fact, regent.

 

I don't believe Cersei was the one behind the plan. As I made perfectly clear, I suspect it was Tywin. What we do know is that Tyrion never mentions it or even thinks of it before it happened, while he does comment frequently about his firepot plan. So there is even less evidence to suggest this was Tyrion's idea than Cersei's. But again, I think it was neither.

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5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Precedent states it:

Queen Sharra Arryn was regent for her son, Ronnel

Queen Alyssa Velaryon was regent for her son, Jaehaerys

Lord Lyonel Tyrell's mother served as his regent until he came of age

Lysa Arryn was Sweetrobin's regent

Catelyn Stark was Robb's regent

In these kinds of hopeless patriarchal societies, this is one of the few ways women can exercise political power -- through their sons. And the fact the Cersei declares herself regent and no one, not even Tywin, overrules this means that she is, in fact, regent.

I don't believe Cersei was the one behind the plan. As I made perfectly clear, I suspect it was Tywin. What we do know is that Tyrion never mentions it or even thinks of it before it happened, while he does comment frequently about his firepot plan. So there is even less evidence to suggest this was Tyrion's idea than Cersei's. But again, I think it was neither.

Those are Lord's. The King's of Westeros have Hand's, so that's what I was wondering about.

Tywin wasn't there. I don't think it's fair to give him credit for plans being made while he was miles away negotiating with the Tyrells.

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10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Those are Lord's. The King's of Westeros have Hand's, so that's what I was wondering about.

Tywin wasn't there. I don't think it's fair to give him credit for plans being made while he was miles away negotiating with the Tyrells.

Jaeharys I was King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.

And lords or kings, it makes no difference. Mothers can become regents for their sons.

Tywin wasn't with the Tyrells when the negotiations were taking place. Littlefinger did that, on Tyrion's orders with Cersei's approval. There are things called horses and ravens that allow people to exert their power and control over great distances, as Tywin does with Tyrion, and Tyrion/Cersei do with Littlefinger. If Tywin did not want Cersei to be regent, she would not be regent. Hard stop.

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1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Jaeharys I was King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.

And lords or kings, it makes no difference. Mothers can become regents for their sons.

Tywin wasn't with the Tyrells when the negotiations were taking place. Littlefinger did that, on Tyrion's orders with Cersei's approval. There are things called horses and ravens that allow people to exert their power and control over great distances, as Tywin does with Tyrion, and Tyrion/Cersei do with Littlefinger. If Tywin did not want Cersei to be regent, she would not be regent. Hard stop.

I never said that they can't become the regent. I was asking if they always become the regent over the Hand of the King.

Did Tyrion even tell Tywin about the wildfire? Tywin didn't care about that, because Tywin was exerting control and gave Tyrion the authority to exert control in his place while he was fighting the war. Hard stop.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Cersei did not name herself regent. That's what she is, by right of her being the king's mother.

This doesn't seem to be a given. While it's common for mothers to become regent while their sons are underage it's far from universal and even in this instance, the legal regent was Ned, whose position Cersei usurped. She declared herself regent and nobody was in a position to object. But in different circumstances we could easily have seen a "war of the regency" with Renly and Stannis competing to oust Cersei and take the regency themselves.

The paltry legal/constitutional environment of Westeros means that these things tend to be largely de facto rather than having a fixed procedure for what's meant to happen. Indeed, given Westerosi attitudes towards female rule from the Iron Throne in general, it's surprising that mothers' regencies happen at all without serious argument.

Besides which, Joffrey is a funny case among minorities because he's permitted to behave as if he's the effective king: he sits the Iron Throne, he makes judgements, he passes sentences, etc, and in public people defer to him, not to Cersei: Cersei's power is limited to her influence over Joffrey, rather than ruling as actual queen regent. Arguably since Cersei isn't really exercising her power as regent, and she's regent only by her own say-so anyway, her actual legal authority is nonexistent.

 

And Cat is even less a regent for Robb than Cersei is for Joffrey.

Edited by Alester Florent
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1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I never said that they can't become the regent. I was asking if they always become the regent over the Hand of the King.

Did Tyrion even tell Tywin about the wildfire? Tywin didn't care about that, because Tywin was exerting control and gave Tyrion the authority to exert control in his place while he was fighting the war. Hard stop.

Not always, but in this case she did. Everyone recognizes her as Joffrey's regent.

Who knows who told whom about what? Cersei may very well have told him. It's not the kind of thing you would keep from the man who controls your destiny.

And no, you don't have a hard stop because you are asserting that Tyrion came up with the explosion plan, which you have utterly failed to do. The hard stop is mine because my contention is confirmed: we don't know where this idea came from. Hard stop.

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46 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

This doesn't seem to be a given. While it's common for mothers to become regent while their sons are underage it's far from universal and even in this instance, the legal regent was Ned, whose position Cersei usurped. She declared herself regent and nobody was in a position to object. But in different circumstances we could easily have seen a "war of the regency" with Renly and Stannis competing to oust Cersei and take the regency themselves.

The paltry legal/constitutional environment of Westeros means that these things tend to be largely de facto rather than having a fixed procedure for what's meant to happen. Indeed, given Westerosi attitudes towards female rule from the Iron Throne in general, it's surprising that mothers' regencies happen at all without serious argument.

Besides which, Joffrey is a funny case among minorities because he's permitted to behave as if he's the effective king: he sits the Iron Throne, he makes judgements, he passes sentences, etc, and in public people defer to him, not to Cersei: Cersei's power is limited to her influence over Joffrey, rather than ruling as actual queen regent. Arguably since Cersei isn't really exercising her power as regent, and she's regent only by her own say-so anyway, her actual legal authority is nonexistent.

 

And Cat is even less a regent for Robb than Cersei is for Joffrey.

I never said it was universal. I just said it was her right to do so. Plenty of men were regents, so there is definitely an element of a power play in all of this. But Cersei claimed the regency by her right as Joffrey's mother, and no one disputed it, not even Tywin.

And no, her power is not limited by her influence over Joffrey. Cersei is out there inspecting the battlements and making wildfire. She leads the small council and makes the appointments. She released Pycelle after Tyrion had him arrested. None of this was done through Joffrey, it was all Cersei.

As regent, she acts in the king's name, but she does not need his permission, for anything. In fact, it is the exact opposite. She has full legal authority to do as she pleases.

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50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Not always, but in this case she did. Everyone recognizes her as Joffrey's regent.

Who knows who told whom about what? Cersei may very well have told him. It's not the kind of thing you would keep from the man who controls your destiny.

And no, you don't have a hard stop because you are asserting that Tyrion came up with the explosion plan, which you have utterly failed to do. The hard stop is mine because my contention is confirmed: we don't know where this idea came from. Hard stop.

Cersei was doing it in secret and I very much doubt she'd tell Tywin about the wildfire until after it had succeeded. Tywin was already furious with her.

And you're assuming that it was Tywin from miles away, which is a much less sound theory. You've utterly failed to prove that it was him and Stannis credits Tyrion with it.

Quote

"So he does know. Davos could not lie to him. "Four of my sons burned on the Blackwater. She gave them to the flames."

"You wrong her. Those fires were no work of hers. Curse the Imp, curse the pyromancers, curse that fool of Florent who sailed my fleet into the jaws of a trap. Or curse me for my stubborn pride, for sending her away when I needed her most. But not Melisandre. She remains my faithful servant."

Unless you have some evidence that Tywin was the one behind the wildfire plan, the text suggests (and through Stannis states) that the plan was his. Does Tywin ever take credit for it? You said that he credited Cersei for increasing production, so surely he would have mentioned that it was his plan? If you have a quote, you can end this immediately. Until then, it was almost certainly Tyrion's. Hard stop.

Edited by Lee-Sensei
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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I never said it was universal. I just said it was her right to do so. Plenty of men were regents, so there is definitely an element of a power play in all of this. But Cersei claimed the regency by her right as Joffrey's mother, and no one disputed it, not even Tywin.

And no, her power is not limited by her influence over Joffrey. Cersei is out there inspecting the battlements and making wildfire. She leads the small council and makes the appointments. She released Pycelle after Tyrion had him arrested. None of this was done through Joffrey, it was all Cersei.

As regent, she acts in the king's name, but she does not need his permission, for anything. In fact, it is the exact opposite. She has full legal authority to do as she pleases.

Tywin certainly would dispute it if he thought there was the slightest chance she would ever challenge his own authority. As regent, Cersei nominally has the power to sack Tywin as Hand and appoint someone else, but she won't and, in practice, can't. And sending Tyrion to serve as acting Hand - something which seems a possibly unprecedented move in Westerosi history - is in itself something of a challenge to her assumed authority. But at least as long as Tywin is personally in the capital he knows that he's the one who's actually in control, so allowing her the empty title of "regent" doesn't trouble him.

Cersei's power might not be officially limited by her influence over Joffrey since she could act with full royal authority, but she nevertheless does limit it by allowing Joffrey much more free rein than one would expect for a king during a minority. She lets Joff behave as if he's a king at full power while doing nothing to restrain him. She might be doing the actual business of governing behind the scenes but it's Joffrey who's fulfilling the public role of monarch, not her.

Cersei starts behaving like a "proper" regent when Tommen is crowned, but as far as Joffrey was concerned, she was happy to let him king it up and effectively used the regency office only to see off competing claims to power and routes to influence over the king. As a result, her actual power is limited by the extent to which she can influence Joffrey, because she's letting him play the part of king publicly rather than doing that kind of thing herself: if he goes off-script she never intervenes, when intervening to stop the excesses of an incapable king is pretty much the whole point in a regent.

This is apparent as early as the fiasco in AGoT when the various goons take Joffrey's order instead of Cersei's and execute Ned, which should have woken Cersei up to the fact that she needed to do more if she were actually going to have her orders followed as regent, and also prompted Tywin to send Tyrion to go and sort things out (as above, a challenge to her authority as regent). After that, a self-respecting regent should have given Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne the hairdryer treatment at minimum and possibly sacked the pair of them, in order to replace them with people who will follow the proper chain of command. Instead she rewards Janos and just moans about them to Tyrion of all people when he finally arrives.

Plus of course everyone recognises that whatever Cersei's title on paper, true power actually rests with Tywin anyway, which again diminishes her authority and power in practice even when Tywin isn't around - and leads to the power struggle with Tyrion once he arrives in King's Landing in ACoK as Tywin's representative.

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