Alden Rothack Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 a persons weight in silver isn't actually worth that much among the nobility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 How much is silver worth in Westeros? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted October 1 Author Share Posted October 1 a hell of a lot less than gold at 210 silver stags to a dragon a dragon is unlikely to be worth less than a pound of silver which would be appropriate of course though it does suggest that coppers are worth very very little that puts Fair Walda's dowry at only slightly more than Tyrion gave the Dwarfs for a couple of hours of being mocked or a few days wages for an average sellsail. I really wish we knew the amount of some other dowries to compare it to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 On 10/1/2023 at 6:04 AM, Alden Rothack said: a persons weight in silver isn't actually worth that much among the nobility It's one of the reason I suspect that the Freys are not as wealthy as they pretend to be. Their halls certainly don't display significant wealth, neither do their clothes. And yes, silver is the coin or merchants and tradesmen. Nobles, especially ones who aspire to become lords paramount, deal in gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted October 2 Author Share Posted October 2 27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: It's one of the reason I suspect that the Freys are not as wealthy as they pretend to be. Their halls certainly don't display significant wealth, neither do their clothes. And yes, silver is the coin or merchants and tradesmen. Nobles, especially ones who aspire to become lords paramount, deal in gold. particularly when marrying one of their own to their chief ally and fellow would be lord paramont weight in gold not silver should be the order of the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 On 10/1/2023 at 6:04 AM, Alden Rothack said: a persons weight in silver isn't actually worth that much among the nobility The Show is not reference quality material so take it with skepticism. According to Cat it made Roose wealthy. It is a very substantial sum to have in the quite poor north. LindsayLohan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted October 2 Author Share Posted October 2 Just now, Moiraine Sedai said: The Show is not reference quality material so take it with skepticism. According to Cat it made Roose wealthy. It is a very substantial sum to have in the quite poor north. Unless the dowry was a lot more in the books thats not going to be the case Roose has enough wealth to outfit and field hundreds of sergants and lancers and thousands of foot of various kinds. it is just possible that Roose is cash poor at the present time but silver isn't going to make him rich, manderly has tons of silver and while he is definitely more powerful than Roose hes not ten times more powerful let alone the thousands of times it would be if silver made you wealthy beyond compare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 I'm going to guess that it is about 2500 ounces. That is roughly 3000 old U.S. dollar coins. That is a sizable sum of money. I think the gold to silver value ratio by weight in medieval Europe was around 11 to 1. I don't know where the 210 stags to one dragon comes from. That would require very small silver coins and very big gold ones; or a wildly different gold to silver value ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 On 10/1/2023 at 10:47 AM, Alden Rothack said: that puts Fair Walda's dowry at only slightly more than Tyrion gave the Dwarfs for a couple of hours of being mocked or a few days wages for an average sellsail. Perhaps there was more to the dowry. Horses and other gifts, for example, but the silver was the highlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 On 10/1/2023 at 9:47 AM, Alden Rothack said: a hell of a lot less than gold at 210 silver stags to a dragon a dragon is unlikely to be worth less than a pound of silver which would be appropriate of course though it does suggest that coppers are worth very very little that puts Fair Walda's dowry at only slightly more than Tyrion gave the Dwarfs for a couple of hours of being mocked or a few days wages for an average sellsail. I really wish we knew the amount of some other dowries to compare it to. That Donal Noye quote indicated as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 12 hours ago, John Suburbs said: It's one of the reason I suspect that the Freys are not as wealthy as they pretend to be. Their halls certainly don't display significant wealth, neither do their clothes. And yes, silver is the coin or merchants and tradesmen. Nobles, especially ones who aspire to become lords paramount, deal in gold. The Frey's are definitely super wealthy. Not as much as the Lannisters, Tyrells or Hightowers, but they're definitely a rich family. Moiraine Sedai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 I'm going to work in metric because the maths is easier. Let's assume that Walda weighs about 90kg (200lb). A silver stag, per Shire Post Mint, weighs 3.3g. Walda's dowry would therefore be 27,300 stags (rounding up). Assuming the Green Ronin exchange rates are roughly accurate for the period of ASoIaF, Walda's dowry would therefore be about 130 gold dragons. That is either a lot of money or not very much, depending on how you look at it. Purchasing power in Westeros is obviously difficult to calculate relative to modern values, firstly for the same reason as medieval money is almost impossible to quantify absolutely and secondly because GRRM is even less an economist than he is a linguist and the maths of money in ASoIaF is all over the place. What we can say with confidence is that in Westerosi terms, you can buy dozens of horses and good suits of armour for 130 dragons. 100 dragons is considered to be a reasonable ransom for a younger son of a noble family: more senior nobles may command premiums above 200 dragons. So 130 dragons is a significant amount of money, but nevertheless money that nobles are expected to be able to raise. In American terms, I previously estimated 40,000 gold dragons as roughly equivalent to $5bn in macroeconomic terms. Using the same calculation, Walda's dowry would therefore be worth about $16 milion. So that's serious money, enough to make a poor man very wealthy, but probably not moving the dial much for the super-rich. and we would probably expect Roose to be wealthier than that. Given the apparent state of overall crown revenues and the amount of land Roose controls I would expect his income to be in the thousands of dragons if not tens of thousands. It's certainly not money to be sniffed at, and if Roose is cash-poor he would certainly welcome the liquidity it offers. But I imagine for him the main attraction was the Frey alliance and the money was just a bonus: he chose a fat bride to maximise it because that's the kind of man he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted October 3 Author Share Posted October 3 4 hours ago, Groo said: Perhaps there was more to the dowry. Horses and other gifts, for example, but the silver was the highlight. then there should be a lot more of it, particularly given who she was marrying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted October 3 Author Share Posted October 3 2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: That Donal Noye quote indicated as much. Indeed, 39 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: I'm going to work in metric because the maths is easier. Let's assume that Walda weighs about 90kg (200lb). A silver stag, per Shire Post Mint, weighs 3.3g. Walda's dowry would therefore be 27,300 stags (rounding up). Assuming the Green Ronin exchange rates are roughly accurate for the period of ASoIaF, Walda's dowry would therefore be about 130 gold dragons. That is either a lot of money or not very much, depending on how you look at it. Purchasing power in Westeros is obviously difficult to calculate relative to modern values, firstly for the same reason as medieval money is almost impossible to quantify absolutely and secondly because GRRM is even less an economist than he is a linguist and the maths of money in ASoIaF is all over the place. What we can say with confidence is that in Westerosi terms, you can buy dozens of horses and good suits of armour for 130 dragons. 100 dragons is considered to be a reasonable ransom for a younger son of a noble family: more senior nobles may command premiums above 200 dragons. So 130 dragons is a significant amount of money, but nevertheless money that nobles are expected to be able to raise In American terms, I previously estimated 40,000 gold dragons as roughly equivalent to $5bn in macroeconomic terms. Using the same calculation, Walda's dowry would therefore be worth about $16 milion. So that's serious money, enough to make a poor man very wealthy, but probably not moving the dial much for the super-rich. and we would probably expect Roose to be wealthier than that. Given the apparent state of overall crown revenues and the amount of land Roose controls I would expect his income to be in the thousands of dragons if not tens of thousands. It's certainly not money to be sniffed at, and if Roose is cash-poor he would certainly welcome the liquidity it offers. But I imagine for him the main attraction was the Frey alliance and the money was just a bonus: he chose a fat bride to maximise it because that's the kind of man he is. I don't in general disagree except on minor specifics of your calculations, however there are a couple of important factors you missed later on ransoms are a good deal less simply because people have a lot less time to gather them and the long term costs of legal ransom are nominal, dowries on the only hand you know your going to need as soon as you have a daughter and have to be enough for said daughter to live on the interest for the rest of her life given that she is marrying up a dowrie equal to several years of her husbands income wouldn't be unusual if the wife's family could afford it Roose of course is fine with marrying her for pocket change because he doesn't expect her to live long enough to start him money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: The Frey's are definitely super wealthy. Not as much as the Lannisters, Tyrells or Hightowers, but they're definitely a rich family. I don't see any evidence of that. If they are, they don't flaunt it. Rich lords decorate their halls and wear the finest clothes, and they deal in gold, not silver. Willam Stark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 (edited) 10 hours ago, John Suburbs said: I don't see any evidence of that. If they are, they don't flaunt it. Rich lords decorate their halls and wear the finest clothes, and they deal in gold, not silver. I don't see why we'd deny it. Quote The Freys were not an old house. They had risen to prominence some six hundred years ago, their line originating from a petty lord who raised a rickety wooden bridge across the narrowest part of the Green Fork. But as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing. And soon the castle grew from a single tower that overlooked the bridge to two formidable towers that bracketed the river between them. These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm. The Frey's rose to prominence around 600 years ago. Before that they were a minor family of petty lords. They started out with a rickety wooden bridge and that grew into one of the greatest castles in asoiaf. Their rise to prominence might have been about how many soldiers they can field, but even that takes money. We're also told specifically that their wealth and influence grew. Influence could just be through marriages or political appointments, but wealth is pretty clear. The Frey's are a rich family. Look at how many knights Walder has in his family and that he supports at the Twins. Compare that to Godrick Borell, who's struggling to support the knightly ambitions of his sons. They also control a lot of land. One of the men on the Night's Watch was arrested for killing a girl in Hag's Mire and tried to escape. He was arrested and judged near Sevenstreams by Walder Rivers, which was still under the jurisdiction of the Freys. Edited October 4 by Lee-Sensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: I don't see why we'd deny it. The Frey's rose to prominence around 600 years ago. Before that they were a minor family of petty lords. They started out with a rickety wooden bridge and that grew into one of the greatest castles in asoiaf. Their rise to prominence might have been about how many soldiers they can field, but even that takes money. We're also told specifically that their wealth and influence grew. Influence could just be through marriages or political appointments, but wealth is pretty clear. The Frey's are a rich family. Look at how many knights Walder has in his family and that he supports at the Twins. Compare that to Godrick Borell, who's struggling to support the knightly ambitions of his sons. They also control a lot of land. One of the men on the Night's Watch was arrested for killing a girl in Hag's Mire and tried to escape. He was arrested and judged near Sevenstreams by Walder Rivers, which was still under the jurisdiction of the Freys. Yes, 600 years ago, the crossing made them rich. That was when constant warfare between mud kings and marsh kings and river kings, along with constant invasions from north, Vale, storm and other kings, produced a steady stream of armies needing to cross the river at that point in a hurry. Likewise, there was no road diverting trade past the Twins until the Targeryen's built one. Since the Conquest 300 years ago, however, the only armies to have crossed there were Ned's (maybe) and Robb's. And there is very little reason to have to move trade from one side of the river to the other when you can just float it downstream to Saltpans or Maidenpool. In fact, there wasn't much reason to do this before the kingsroad either. So yes, Walder has a big family, with not just knights but many ladies as well, which means fine lace and fabrics, jewelry and the like. But aside from a few exceptions, we see no signs of this great wealth -- not by the look of his halls, the clothes of his family, the armor of his knights, nor the measly dowry he offers for his daughters. To be sure, he has a lot of land that bring in substantial income, but he has lots of expenses too, which is why he is so eager to marry off his children. So my conclusion is that he may be land-rich, but he's cash-poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 Fat Walda is worth $63,000 at current prices, but we don’t know what the price of silver is in Westeros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 51 minutes ago, SeanF said: Fat Walda is worth $63,000 at current prices, but we don’t know what the price of silver is in Westeros. By my reckoning, it's worth around 140 stags to the pound, although this assumes we're talking about the current standard pound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 9 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Yes, 600 years ago, the crossing made them rich. That was when constant warfare between mud kings and marsh kings and river kings, along with constant invasions from north, Vale, storm and other kings, produced a steady stream of armies needing to cross the river at that point in a hurry. Likewise, there was no road diverting trade past the Twins until the Targeryen's built one. Since the Conquest 300 years ago, however, the only armies to have crossed there were Ned's (maybe) and Robb's. And there is very little reason to have to move trade from one side of the river to the other when you can just float it downstream to Saltpans or Maidenpool. In fact, there wasn't much reason to do this before the kingsroad either. So yes, Walder has a big family, with not just knights but many ladies as well, which means fine lace and fabrics, jewelry and the like. But aside from a few exceptions, we see no signs of this great wealth -- not by the look of his halls, the clothes of his family, the armor of his knights, nor the measly dowry he offers for his daughters. To be sure, he has a lot of land that bring in substantial income, but he has lots of expenses too, which is why he is so eager to marry off his children. So my conclusion is that he may be land-rich, but he's cash-poor. If anything, I'd tink that establishing peace would have made the Frey's even richer. Quote "War is bad for trade. Weakness invites attack. To have peace, we must be strong." - Qhorwyn Hoare What other dowry's have we heard of that dwarf Walder's? Quote A Storm of Swords - Google Books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.