Whenever we 'had' lemons ...

[Sandy Clegg]

"Arya of Winterfell, aye. When last I was inside those walls, your cook served us a steak and kidney pie. Made with ale, I think, best I ever tasted. What was his name, that cook?"

"Gage," Jeyne said at once. "He was a good cook. He would make lemoncakes for Sansa whenever we had lemons."  - TWOW, Theon

GRRM is very coy with the provenance of lemons in these books, even here. He writes merely 'whenever they had lemons', not whenever they were delivered from the south, or whenever they ripened in the Winterfell glass gardens. Would it have been so hard to specify more than just 'had'? 

So ... can lemon trees grow in Winterfell? 

Edited October 3 by Sandy Clegg

[kissdbyfire]

ADwD, Jon VII

They rode the winch lift back to the ground. The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy. The heavy cage was swaying. From time to time it scraped against the Wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell, like shards of broken glass.

Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. 
 

If a glass garden would make it possible for the NW to grow veggies at the Wall in the dead of winter w/o the benefit of Winterfell’s heating system, I don’t see any reason for them not to have lemons in Winterfell. 

Edited October 2 by kissdbyfire

[Groo]

Greensight, hatching dragon eggs, creating wights, growing lemons. It's probably best that GRRM leaves an air of mystery around all the magical elements in the story.

[Casso, King of the Seals]

It would probably be strange for Jeyne, who at this point is half-frozen to death and was tortured by Ramsay for a long time, to go explaining the origin of the lemons in Winterfell. It is irrelevant to Mors Umber who is questioning her. This is from Theon's chapter, by the way.

I would assume the lemons were just delivered from the south with other goods that are traded between kingdoms. Could have been grown in Dorne with its hot climate or maybe King's Landing.

[Springwatch]

In Mormont's time, the Watch had both lemons and limes, which always seemed a bit luxurious to me, but maybe not so much if they only travelled from the marvellous glass gardens of Winterfell. More likely though, the fruit is a patriotic bonus contribution from Dorne. They've got lots.

GRRM is over-generous with his use of citrus, and I like to think they represent sunshine which is why Westeros running out of them from north to south, even though Dorne itself still has fruit on the trees.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

"Arya of Winterfell, aye. When last I was inside those walls, your cook served us a steak and kidney pie. Made with ale, I think, best I ever tasted. What was his name, that cook?"

"Gage," Jeyne said at once. "He was a good cook. He would make lemoncakes for Sansa whenever we had lemons."  - TWOW, Theon

GRRM is very coy with the provenance of lemons in these books, even here. He writes merely 'whenever they had lemons', not whenever they were delivered from the south, or whenever they ripened in the Winterfell glass gardens. Would it have been so hard to specify more than just 'had'? 

So ... can lemon trees grow in Winterfell? 

You need more than just a warm climate to grow lemons. You need the right kind of soil (more salty and loamy, less acidic), proper amounts of sunlight, proper humidity, drainage . . .

So just having a greenhouse is only part of the equation.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

ADwD, Jon VII

They rode the winch lift back to the ground. The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy. The heavy cage was swaying. From time to time it scraped against the Wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell, like shards of broken glass.

Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. 
 

If a glass garden would make it possible for the NW to grow veggies at the Wall in the dead of winter w/o the benefit of Winterfell’s heating system, I don’t see any reason for them not to have lemons in Winterfell. 

Lemon trees need more than just warmth and sunlight. They need the proper soil, drainage, Ph, and other stuff.

So vegetables, yes; citrus fruits? Probably not.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lemon trees need more than just warmth and sunlight. They need the proper soil, drainage, Ph, and other stuff.

So vegetables, yes; citrus fruits? Probably not.

Many veggies have special needs as well. I don’t think Martin did a full study on what each type of veg or fruit needs tbh, nor do I think he should have b/c it’s besides the point whereas the pH is too acidic or not for certain things to grow. 

You may be taking his saying he’s a gardener a tad too literally.

Edited October 3 by kissdbyfire

[Groo]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

it’s besides the point whereas the pH is too acidic or not for certain things to grow. 

If Melville could fill Moby Dick with long tedious chapters about the minutiae of sailing and the extraction of whale oil, then Martin can definitely add a few chapters on pH factors and proper drainage techniques.

[Lord Browndodd]

I grow citrus under glass in a climate not too far removed from Winterfell; the orangeblossom is coming into flower at the moment.  Whether GRRM would agree that this is possible, however, I don't know.

[Sandy Clegg]

13 minutes ago, Lord Browndodd said:

I grow citrus under glass in a climate not too far removed from Winterfell

And also Westeros isn’t on Earth so he can explain away a lot of quirks this way. He’s definitely being slyly withholding in that TWOW quote, though. He is well aware now that fans are obsessing about lemon trees (see the Mercy chapter’s lemon exchange) so any mention of lemons in the books will have undergone more GRRM scrutiny than before. That’s why I find the uninformative “whenever we had lemons” amusing really. He phrased it just so that we can discern nothing from it whatsoever. 

[kissdbyfire]

32 minutes ago, Groo said:

If Melville could fill Moby Dick with long tedious chapters about the minutiae of sailing and the extraction of whale oil, then Martin can definitely add a few chapters on pH factors and proper drainage techniques.

He certainly could. Doesn't mean he will or that I think he will. A blessing. 

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

He certainly could. Doesn't mean he will or that I think he will. A blessing. 

He makes quite clear in his section introductions in Dreamsons that he wouldn't even write sci-fi stories full of technical minutae about the boiling temperature of water in space

[Groo]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He makes quite clear in his section introductions in Dreamsons that he wouldn't even write sci-fi stories full of technical minutae about the boiling temperature of water in space

Ha! That's a trick question! Water immediately vaporizes in any vacuum, including space. Temperature is irrelevant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What? Claiming fantasy/sci-fi readers are science nerds is just a stereotype.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He makes quite clear in his section introductions in Dreamsons that he wouldn't even write sci-fi stories full of technical minutae about the boiling temperature of water in space

Exactly. And seriously, can you imagine paragraphs about soil pH and such? 

[Evolett]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:00 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

GRRM is very coy with the provenance of lemons in these books, even here. He writes merely 'whenever they had lemons', not whenever they were delivered from the south, or whenever they ripened in the Winterfell glass gardens. Would it have been so hard to specify more than just 'had'?

Well, lemons do find their way up North. From Jon we know Mormont had lemon juice in his beer every day. Not whenever  lemons available, but everyday. Considering that some inns down south can't get hold of the fruit, that suggests a good supply finding its way to the NW, perhaps by way of Eastwatch. 

In any case, since according to Sansa, the glass gardens are always as warm as "the hottest day of summer",  I can imagine lemons growing there as well. The tropical greenhouse environment would allow it. 

Quote

 Water from the hot springs is piped through the walls to warm them, and inside the glass gardens it was always like the hottest day of summer.”

We learn the garden also has unspecified trees:

Quote

The green and yellow panes of the glass gardens were all in shards, the trees and fruits and flowers torn up or left exposed to die.

 

Maybe also a lemon tree? There's no mention of how large the gardens are but the mention of trees, plural suggests a sizable area. Perhaps different kinds of fruit trees. They wouldn't carry fruit throughout the year, which would explain the intermittent availability Sansa remembers. 

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. And seriously, can you imagine paragraphs about soil pH and such? 

Sure!  Such as, Ned discussing with the master gardener whomever that may be, the finer points of using horse, sheep and cattle manure for fertilizer.  They are all different and each would provide a different type of fertilizer and soil conditioning.  Irrigation and drainage protocols would of course be controlled by the weather as well.   So, yes, GRRM could have gone that route no doubt, and after Jon had become LC, he would have pushed to build a glass garden at the Wall because he would have seen their benefits firsthand.  

[Aebram]

6 hours ago, Groo said:

If Melville could fill Moby Dick with long tedious chapters about the minutiae of sailing and the extraction of whale oil, then Martin can definitely add a few chapters on pH factors and proper drainage techniques.

He could.... but I'm glad he didn't.

I recently reread 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea for the first time since I was a kid. I had forgotten that there are places in that story where Verne wrote multiple pages that are little more than lists of all the different animals, plants, and even rocks and minerals that M. Arronax saw during his travels. It was boring to me then, and it still is. But in the 19th century, I think that sort of thing was more common. People didn't have as much access to information about faraway places, or as much ability to travel to them. I imagine many readers would have found those pages fascinating, thinking, "Oh, I had no idea there was such a variety of life outside my village."

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Many veggies have special needs as well. I don’t think Martin did a full study on what each type of veg or fruit needs tbh, nor do I think he should have b/c it’s besides the point whereas the pH is too acidic or not for certain things to grow. 

You may be taking his saying he’s a gardener a tad too literally.

Lol, he's a gardener all right.

Yes, many veggies have special needs, and nnot just acidity. There are veggies that thrive in the types of soils found in temperate climes vs tropical ones. So a greenhouse at the wall might serve for carrots, beets, neeps, onions, etc., but not okra, eggplant, mustard . . .   So in the same vein, things like lemons, peaches, pomegranates and the like are probably out, but apples, pears and blackberries are probably in.

[Alester Florent]

I think "whenever we had lemons" is a perfectly natural phrasing in that regard. Yes, it may be GRRM teasing the lemongaters slightly (albeit Sansa's love of lemoncakes is well established by now) but I wouldn't expect someone being questioned in those circumstances to go into any more specifics of how the lemons were procured: it's not at all relevant to the question. Indeed, I wouldn't necessarily expect Arya/Jeyne to know exactly how the lemons were procured anyway.