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What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?


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12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Basically, it was a “fuck you” from the slavers to Daenerys, and her freedmen, as well as a means to instil fear in the slaves.  Like the Spartan krypteia would murder random slaves, to keep them frightened.

Well, in that case, I'd say they did not understand the psychology of the situation.  The target is Dany, no?

Also if you kill random slaves here and there, then the frightened slaves may keep their heads down in the hopes of saving their own children.  If you murder 163 children at once just to prove how evil you are, then the slaves will rise up in the hope of saving their own children.  As Tywin tried to explain to Joffrey, one must be pragmatic with one's evil deeds.  Otherwise no-one has any incentive to bend the knee, and every motive to fight.

You're just speculating insane reasons why 163 slavers would simultaneously decide to do an insane thing.  I concede that SOMEBODY certainly aid an insane thing.  Those kids didn't climb up on those poles themselves. 

But if we can speculate, we can also speculate about Daario's reasons.  Maybe he wanted her to get tied up in Meereen.  to buy time for whatever.

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Just now, Gilbert Green said:

Well, in that case, I'd say they did not understand the psychology of the situation.  The target is Dany, no?

Also if you kill random slaves here and there, then the frightened slaves may keep their heads down in the hopes of saving their own children.  If you murder 163 children at once just to prove how evil you are, then the slaves will rise up in the hope of saving their own children.  As Tywin tried to explain to Joffrey, one must be pragmatic with one's evil deeds.  Otherwise no-one has any incentive to bend the knee, and every motive to fight.

The mentality of the slave owner is not the same as that of the feudal overlord.  The latter is more like a mafia boss.  He uses both sticks and carrots when dealing with rivals and subordinates. We can comprehend that, thanks in no small part, due to films and TV shows, through which we can see the world through their eyes.

The slave owner is more like someone running Belsen or the Auschwitz forced labour camps.  He knows that he is hated by those he controls, apart from a privileged group of overseers (equivalent to the kapos in the camps).  There is no point to carrots and sticks.  Absolute, abject, fear is what he aims for.  And so, taking pot shots at prisoners, random executions on spurious grounds are all a part of it.

Hence, you get the Charleston slaver being asked why he flogged his slaves, who had value, when he would never flog his valuable racehorses.

”Slaves aren’t horses”, he replied.

Horses don’t need to be kept in a state of fear.

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32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The mentality of the slave owner is not the same as that of the feudal overlord.  The latter is more like a mafia boss.  He uses both sticks and carrots when dealing with rivals and subordinates. We can comprehend that, thanks in no small part, due to films and TV shows, through which we can see the world through their eyes.

The slave owner is more like someone running Belsen or the Auschwitz forced labour camps.  He knows that he is hated by those he controls, apart from a privileged group of overseers (equivalent to the kapos in the camps).  There is no point to carrots and sticks.  Absolute, abject, fear is what he aims for.  And so, taking pot shots at prisoners, random executions on spurious grounds are all a part of it.

Hence, you get the Charleston slaver being asked why he flogged his slaves, who had value, when he would never flog his valuable racehorses.

”Slaves aren’t horses”, he replied.

Horses don’t need to be kept in a state of fear.

Ever heard of the Charleston slaver who crucified 163 black childen just to show how evil he was?  No?  Neither have I.  I don't think it would have worked out for him.

Yeah, okay.  I get that ASOIAF is dialed up to 11, and more over-the-top than real life.  Somebody sure murdered those children.

So I'm not ruling out the slavers as suspects.  It's just that Daario was found at the scene of the crime.  And he is a bloodthirsty homicidal maniac.  And he is an actual named character in the story.   And there is more to Daario than meets the eye, per GRRM. Whereas the 163 slavers are all nameless and faceless.

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21 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Ever heard of the Charleston slaver who crucified 163 black childen just to show how evil he was?  No?  Neither have I.  I don't think it would have worked out for him.

Yeah, okay.  I get that ASOIAF is dialed up to 11, and more over-the-top than real life.  Somebody sure murdered those children.

So I'm not ruling out the slavers as suspects.  It's just that Daario was found at the scene of the crime.  And he is a bloodthirsty homicidal maniac.  And he is an actual named character in the story.   And there is more to Daario than meets the eye, per GRRM. Whereas the 163 slavers are all nameless and faceless.

Crucifixion of children?  No.  Flogging to death, brutal torture, burning?  I can give you chapter and verse.

The problem with Daario as suspect is the notion of his riding a few miles ahead of the army each day to nail up and disembowel children.  I think he’d have been caught out.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The problem with Daario as suspect is the notion of his riding a few miles ahead of the army each day to nail up and disembowel children.

But he WAS riding ahead of the army.   Per the text. 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think he’d have been caught out.

But he WAS found with dead and dying children.

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4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

She did not know who gave the order.  Nobody confessed.  The number of victims matches the number of children.  It does not match the number of people who gave the order.   It does not even match the number of leaders of the slave class.  She just killed 163 slavers to avenge 163 children.  That's it.  The only evidence she has is that some (predictably) pointed the finger at each other in a desperate attempt to save themselves.  At least, that's what I conclude from the symbolism of their executions.

She knew the leaders had given the order and she killed 163 of them, they all share equal blame since it's an oligarchy.

 

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why did the slavers do that?  To manipulate Dany's emotions?  Just to be evil?  In a fit of insanity?  It's not exactly an easy question to answer no matter who you blame.  Especially if you try to blame 163 people at once.  But somebody sure did it.

To manipulate Dany and because they are evil.

It seems easy enough to me.

 

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

"All present?  Great.  I propose a resolution.  Let us crucify 163 children just to show Dany how evil we are so that Dany will be especially determined to destroy our city and then kill us all in an equally painful manner.  All in favor?  Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye.  Great.  That's 163 Ayes and zero Nayes.  Resolution passes.  Lets go murder some children."

Yeah pretty much.

 

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

But no, he was not stringing the kids up when they caught him.  He was trying to cut them down.  To spare Dany's feelings.  Yes yes yes, that's it.  Good story, Daario.  Nice save.

So do you think Daario just did that distance from Mereen?

 

 

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The idea that Daario could somehow manage to procure and crucify 163 children at mile intervals including practically right under the nose of Meereen, a hostile city,

without being caught or even rousing the suspicion of Dany's other commanders,

and noting that crucifixion is not a straightforward or quick procedure, with unpredictable rates of death...

...and noting that when Dany ordered the execution of 163 slavers as recompense, there don't appear to have been any protestations of innocence; they may have objected to the severity of the punishment but nobody appears to have claimed that they didn't do it...

... is crazy.

Not the craziest theory I've seen, though. Not even the craziest from this source.

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38 minutes ago, frenin said:

She knew the leaders had given the order and she killed 163 of them, they all share equal blame since it's an oligarchy.

You don't address HOW she knows it.  She knows it because she knows it because you say so. 

Seems to me that there's plenty room for assumptions to be wrong.  You just don't LIKE the assumptions being questioned.  Which is fine.  Agree to disagree.

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

To manipulate Dany and because they are evil.

It seems easy enough to me.

Works just as well for Daarion.

He did it to manipulate Dany and because he is evil.

It seems equally easy to me.

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yeah pretty much.

LOL, you just agreed with the most ridiculous and unlikely scenario. 

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

43 minutes ago, frenin said:

So do you think Daario just did that distance from Mereen?

Daario absolutely travelled that distance.  Ahead of Dany.  With his fast horse, he probably had time to do it twice over.  I have no opinion on in what order he put the children on posts.  Whether he started near Meereen or moved  out, or started out and moved in.  Or started in the middle and moved in both directions, with the aid of leutenants.

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2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

You don't address HOW she knows it.  She knows it because she knows it because you say so. 

It's an oligarchy, they make decisions by majority and they are all responsible of the actions of the gov.

So by targetting the leaders, she's by default picking the responsible ones.

 

4 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

He did it to manipulate Dany and because he is evil.

To what end?

 

 

5 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

LOL, you just agreed with the most ridiculous and unlikely scenario. 

Why? It's not as if they are not presented as cortoonisly evil.

 

5 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Daario absolutely travelled that distance.  Ahead of Dany.  With his fast horse, he probably had time to do it twice over.  I have no opinion on in what order he put the children on posts.  Whether he started near Meereen or moved  out, or started out and moved in.  Or started in the middle and moved in both directions, with the aid of leutenants.

He travelled ahead of Dany, he did not travel to Mereen and back  to Mereen and back, snatching children, building crosses and impaled children.

It's quite literally impossible.

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1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

The idea that Daario could somehow manage to procure and crucify 163 children at mile intervals including practically right under the nose of Meereen, a hostile city,

Right under the nose?  You don't know much about geography do you.  Let me ask you - how far away is the horizon, on an open sea?  And on land it is typically and plausibly much shorter.  The children were strung up roughly every MILE.  Not every ten feet up to the gates of Meereen.   And the last few miles might have been ski;;ed for all we know.

How would he procure them?  I wasn't there.  But it is has been traditionally a fairly standard practice during sieges for the upper classes to retreat behind walls while the peasants/serfs/farmers (in this case probably members of the slave class) to be left to face the wrath of the invaders.   And in this case the invaders first encountered would be Daario and his Stormcrows, riding ahead of the main army.  Slaughter the slave/peasant families and sieze the children.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

without being caught or even rousing the suspicion of Dany's other commanders,

But Daario WAS caught with the children.  I already told you the suspicious details.  You're just angrily refusing to be suspicious.  Based on the details I gave, the other commanders certainly OUGHT to have been suspicious.  It's not my fault they had other things on their minds.   

He even admitted to trying to conceal the crime.  Innocently, of course.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

and noting that crucifixion is not a straightforward or quick procedure, with unpredictable rates of death...

I don't see your point.  That's true no matter who kills the children.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

...and noting that when Dany ordered the execution of 163 slavers as recompense, there don't appear to have been any protestations of innocence; they may have objected to the severity of the punishment but nobody appears to have claimed that they didn't do it...

That's ridiculous.  The text never says that none of them protested their innocence.  And even if the text had said it it would be so contrary to human nature as to break the suspension of disbelief of any intelligent reader.   Murderers almost always protest their innocence, even if 100% guilty.

Dany ordered them strung up each pointing a finger at the other.  This seems to symbolically suggest that they ALL protested their innocence, however willing they each may have been to divert suspicion to others.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

... is crazy.

Not the craziest theory I've seen, though. Not even the craziest from this source.

Thankee kindly.  Just for fun and for the record, can you list a few of my crazier ones?

Also, GRRM says that there is more to Daario than meets the eye.  Can you suggest any boring, unfun, non-crazy theories for us to consider?

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16 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's an oligarchy, they make decisions by majority and they are all responsible of the actions of the gov.

It's an oligarchy.  Not some alien hive mind.  You cannot automatically assume everyone is in the know every time one of them commits a crime.   Especially when the crime is committed far outside the shelter of the city walls.

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

To what end?

Dunno.  Maybe to tie her up in Meereen to give him time to go other places and do other things.  Which he seems to be doing alot of.

To what end did the slavers do it?  Oh right.  To die horribly.  It certainly was a good plan.

26 minutes ago, frenin said:
21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why? It's not as if they are not presented as cortoonisly evil.

Daario is also portrayed as cartoonishly evil.  He even dresses like a cartoon.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

He travelled ahead of Dany, he did not travel to Mereen and back  to Mereen and back, snatching children, building crosses and impaled children.

It's quite literally impossible.

Why is it impossible?  It's not like there is any rule that he has to fix the posts nearest Meereen first.  And he's most likely doing advance scouting operations for a much slower foot army.  So yeah.  He is, most likely, going and returning, going and returning, going and returning.  And reporting.  And bringing supplies.  He just leaves out the peasant massacres and other details.

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23 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Right under the nose?  You don't know much about geography do you.  Let me ask you - how far away is the horizon, on an open sea?  And on land it is typically and plausibly much shorter.  The children were strung up roughly every MILE.  Not every ten feet up to the gates of Meereen.   And the last few miles might have been ski;;ed for all we know

I know how far a mile is. I walk a mile and a half to work every day (and back). It is not very far. At sea, assuming you're of about average height, the horizon is around three miles away. From a city wall like Meereen's, let alone the top of the pyramids, you could see further. Meereen is expecting attack, and will have its own scouts, its own horseback patrols, which will cover a couple of miles easily. And it's not like the crucifixions were off out of the way: they were on the main road, exactly the areas that Meereen would be watching.

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How would he procure them?  I wasn't there.  But it is has been traditionally a fairly standard practice during sieges for the upper classes to retreat behind walls while the peasants/serfs/farmers (in this case probably members of the slave class) to be left to face the wrath of the invaders.   And in this case the invaders first encountered would be Daario and his Stormcrows, riding ahead of the main army.  Slaughter the slave/peasant families and sieze the children.

 

And he manages to do this without a single witness, either multiple times or somehow dragging 163 kids over the whole length of the march without anyone spotting him?

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But Daario WAS caught with the children.  I already told you the suspicious details. 

When you see someone talking to a homeless person and money changes hands, do you assume that they're robbing them? Because that's the kind of level of wilful misinterpretation we're operating on here.

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I don't see your point.  That's true no matter who kills the children.

If the slavers get caught mid-crucifixion, they just run away. They're probably mostly slave work crews with a Master anyway. If any of the children are still alive when Dany reaches them, so what? If Daario gets caught, he's screwed. If the kids are still alive, he's screwed. He's got to do his scouting job while also apparently cutting down trees for crosses at regular intervals. And hope that none of his men get drunk and talk about it.

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You're just angrily refusing to be suspicious.  Based on the details I gave, the other commanders certainly OUGHT to have been suspicious.  It's not my fault they had other things on their minds.   

I'm not angrily refusing to be suspicious. I think the theory is hilarious. I do think Daario is a suspicious character in general. But I don't think it's plausible for him to have been able to pull something like this off, especially since I'm not even sure what his motive is supposed to be.

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Thankee kindly.  Just for fun and for the record, can you list a few of my crazier ones?

Lemongate. Oh, and isn't Aegon actually Quentyn, who is in turn someone else, who is alive and well and living on Viserion because the apparent Quentyn is the Tattered Prince?

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Also, GRRM says that there is more to Daario than meets the eye.  Can you suggest any boring, unfun, non-crazy theories for us to consider?

No. The only possible explanation for "more to Daario than meets the eye" is that he is in fact an invisible ninja-wizard, probably Gerion Lannister being warged by Euron.

 

Edited by Alester Florent
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3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

No. The only possible explanation for "more to Daario than meets the eye" is that he is in fact an invisible ninja-wizard, probably Gerion Lannister being warged by Euron.

TBF, despite the unlikeliness of Daario crucifying 163 children under the eyes of Dany's other scouts (please GRRM, let Dany have that much tactical sense at least) and Meereen's scouts, Daario being what he is - a merc - means he has ample opportunity to wreck trouble somewhere else. No need to go Faceless Men.

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13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I know how far a mile is. I walk a mile and a half to work every day (and back). It is not very far.

I was not talking about how far you can walk, but about how far you can see.  I live on a hill.   A large double-decker railroad train passes within a half mile of my house every day.  Do you think I can ever see an inch of it?

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

From a city wall like Meereen's, let alone the top of the pyramids, you could see further.

Not if a tree is in the way.  Vegetation, man.  It tends to block things.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Meereen is expecting attack, and will have its own scouts, its own horseback patrols, which will cover a couple of miles easily.

Okay.  So they ride out a few miles and maybe find a kid or two nailed to a mile-post, assuming Daario has strung the kid up yet.  They ride back and say "I found a kid nailed to a mile-post".  "Who strung him up?"  "Dunno."  "Ours or theirs?"  "Dunno".   "Maybe Vatziz-Naehm did it."  "Could be, Vatziz-Naehm always was a vicious bastard."  So they ask Vatzis-Naehm, who says "Nope, wasn't me.  Maybe it was Wadja-Kallum."

So what?

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

And it's not like the crucifixions were off out of the way: they were on the main road, exactly the areas that Meereen would be watching.

I find it plausible (though hardly inevitable) that Meereen has a view of portions of the approaching road within one or two miles, so that an approaching army will inevitably pass into view, as it proceeds along the road.

It hardly follows that they will see a particular milepost.  Mileposts are designed to be visible from the road, and hardly need to be visible from the tops of nearby pyramids.  And they are positioned every mile -- and not at points that just happen to be visible from the tops of pyramids.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

And he manages to do this without a single witness, either multiple times or somehow dragging 163 kids over the whole length of the march without anyone spotting him?

Somebody somehow dragged and killed the children over the whole length of the march.  You just have a double standard, where if suspect A is considered no questions need to be answered, but if Suspect B is considered a million questions need to be answered.

Fact is, we have 163 dead children, and no witnesses reported in the text.  Except, of course, the witnesses who found Daario at the scene of the crime (who don't count, somehow).  If you don't like it, complain to GRRM.

I imagine there were a few other witnesses, even though the text does not report them.  Probably they were hiding, or they would not be alive.  What did they see?  Dunno.  Some masked men slaughtering people, I guess.   Maybe weanng false-flags or similar.   Were the masked men working for Meereen or for Daario?  Dunno.  But you are not going to prove one possibility by demanding that I prove the other.  That's a double standard.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

When you see someone talking to a homeless person and money changes hands, do you assume that they're robbing them? Because that's the kind of level of wilful misinterpretation we're operating on here.

 This isn't a made-up crime.  Somebody killed the children.  And we have, broadly speaking two suspects, Meereen/Slavers and Daario/Stormcrows.

You can't prove it was Meereen by demanding absolute proof that it was Daario.  That's an argument from ignorance.  If I can't absolutely prove that it was Daario that still leaves us with two suspects.  And if you can't absolutely prove it was Meereen that still leaves us with two suspects.

Meanwhile, Daario was caught at the scene of the crime, and the Meerenese slavers were not.  Is it absolute proof?  No.  But it is small piece of evidence and maybe a clue.  If you want absolute proof, I guess you will have to wait for the reveal.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

If the slavers get caught mid-crucifixion, they just run away. They're probably mostly slave work crews with a Master anyway.

They'll need fast horses, to escape the Stormcrows.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

If Daario gets caught, he's screwed. If the kids are still alive, he's screwed.

Daario seems like a risk taker to me.  But if something does go wrong, who's got the fast horses?  Daario.

Some of the kids were alive.  But for whatever reason, it does not appear that any of them provided any useful information pointing to ultimate suspects.  There could be any number of reasons for that.  Like masks.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

He's got to do his scouting job while also apparently cutting down trees for crosses at regular intervals.

The kids were nailed to the mileposts.  The mileposts were already there.  Nobody had to fashion crosses.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

And hope that none of his men get drunk and talk about it.

The Stormcrows are always in the field.  Always.  Funny how GRRM seems to anticipate all of your objections.  And it is not as though Daario must use all 500 of his men for special operations.   There might even be a few without tongues.  Daario has been known to cut out tongues.

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Maybe Daario is a conjurer and used magic to keep 163 children hidden, and to nail them to crosses, while nobody else noticed him doing so.

Or maybe Dany nailed them up and pretended it was the Masters.  After all, she was present at the scene of the crime.

 

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13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Lemongate. Oh, and isn't Aegon actually Quentyn, who is in turn someone else, who is alive and well and living on Viserion because the apparent Quentyn is the Tattered Prince?

 I can't take credit for Lemongate.  Also, GRRM confirmed Lemongate 8 years ago, so it isn't even a theory any more.  Unless you mean particular versions of it.

But yes, the other one is mine.  You did a good job summarizing it so as to make it sound ridiculous, without actually being inaccurate.  But I stand by it.  Cheers.

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15 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

It's an oligarchy.  Not some alien hive mind.  You cannot automatically assume everyone is in the know every time one of them commits a crime.   Especially when the crime is committed far outside the shelter of the city walls.

It doesn't need to be an alien hive mind, the oligarchy is ultimately the responsible for that and mind you, they picked the children inside the city.

 

15 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Dunno.  Maybe to tie her up in Meereen to give him time to go other places and do other things.  Which he seems to be doing alot of.

To what end did the slavers do it?  Oh right.  To die horribly.  It certainly was a good plan.

  • How in the world did Daario know Dany would be tied in Mereen if he killed the children?
  • "If you keep advancing more of the slaves you're trying to protect will die horribly", it's a pretty run on the mill deterrent tactic.

 

15 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Daario is also portrayed as cartoonishly evil.  He even dresses like a cartoon.

Not quite the slavers.

 

15 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why is it impossible?  It's not like there is any rule that he has to fix the posts nearest Meereen first.  And he's most likely doing advance scouting operations for a much slower foot army.  So yeah.  He is, most likely, going and returning, going and returning, going and returning.  And reporting.  And bringing supplies.  He just leaves out the peasant massacres and other details.

Because it is logistically impossible, nor we're told he was going and retuurning from Mereen that often and he at some point will have to impale children right near Mereen and no one noticed?

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