US Politics: Shutdown Showdown

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The SCOTUS has denied Cert. to Derek Chauvin.  The murderer of George Floyd will remain in prison:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/chauvin-appeal-in-floyd-murder-denied-by-us-supreme-court#:~:text=The US Supreme Court rejected,a fair trial was violated.

Edited November 20 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The SCOTUS has denied Cert. to Derek Chauvin.  The murder of George Floyd will remain in prison:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/chauvin-appeal-in-floyd-murder-denied-by-us-supreme-court#:~:text=The US Supreme Court rejected,a fair trial was violated.

Where he belongs, so great news imo.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I feel like im watching a slomo trainwreck with 81 y.o. Biden being forced on us as the only alternative to the criminal Trump.

Polling is showing Americans do not want either of these long past thier prime options, yet its becoming clear we will have no other viable choice come next November.

I will not be voting for either shitty choice, sorry just not going to give either option a seal of approval. As much as i despise Republicans, if I even feel this way, im certain there are tens of millions other disaffected moderates, dems and especially younger voters.

This is going to be a historically blunderous dice roll if the Dems think voters are going give them a pass and show up despite crystal clear evidence we dont want this as our choice.

Biden needs to give his LBJ speech, like yesterday.

Edited November 20 by DireWolfSpirit

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

If anyone is interested this is the full oral arguments of the Appeal of the gag order against Trump in the DC case:

 

[Altherion]

40 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Biden needs to give his LBJ speech, like yesterday.

Maybe -- the problem is that there is no obvious replacement. I just saw this article which also draws a comparison between Biden and LBJ:

Quote

I've never wavered in my belief that calling out Lyndon Johnson that way was the right thing to do. Yet it ultimately led to LBJ  abandoning his re-election bid in 1968, and thus to the election of Richard Nixon (aided by some seditious conspiracy) and 50-plus years of mostly horrible foreign and domestic policy — starting with Nixon prolonging, worsening and expanding the same horrific slaughter of innocents I had been protesting.

I can honestly say that there's no comparison: LBJ was far and away the best U.S. president of my lifetime. His policy record — on civil rights, social programs (Medicare, Medicaid), environmental protection (even environmental justice via his wife), consumer protection, you name it — towers over everyone else, and over the entire half-century.

I really hope the young people of today for whom Biden is the first or second president they have a clear memory of don't wind up writing a similar article half a century from now...

[horangi]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I feel like im watching a slomo trainwreck with 81 y.o. Biden being forced on us as the only alternative to the criminal Trump.

 

Is there a particular issue that has you fed up?  Biden was my third from last choice in 2020 (ahead of Harris and Sanders), but I think he's done a fairly good job given the cards dealt.  Yes, I wish we had someone younger, but frankly 'we' voted him in as the candidate, he wasn't foisted on us.  I ask myself the questions: Does the person surround themselves with good advisors and do they listen to them?  Generally in Biden's case, it seems to be true.  Essentially, vote for the positions and competence of the administration, not for the man. 

Yes, the inflation of the last couple years was no fun, but was even less fun just about everywhere else in the world.  Yes the collapse of Afghanistan was hugely disappointing, but the speed of the collapse suggests that the choice was either that or maintaining a forever war.  Sure, the Ukraine invasion sucks, but the administration has done a good job supporting a country everyone expected to collapse in a week's time and inflicted probably the largest strategic defeat of a hostile major power since WWII all without kicking off WWIII.  The Gaza situation is terrible, but it appears the only moderation there has been has been a result of the Biden administration's efforts. 

I know its unrealistic to expect the public to vote based on policy rather then from their hearts, as DMC would no doubt point out were he here.  However, it would be nice if people could point of the politically viable alternative choices that would have prevented or further mitigated these issues.  The House is a dysfunctional mess, so any fixes requiring legislation are not going to happen and even in the first two years, the Senate was on a razor and was not going to take bold steps.  I am actually amazed at just how much was accomplished- the infrastructure bill can be pointed to as a reason why the US economy is in such 'not terrible' shape.

Essentially, the world is a mess, and while there are choices to nit-pick with hindsight, I suspect that this is what 'good' looks like, as disheartening as it feels. 

Edited November 20 by horangi

[Guy Kilmore]

4 minutes ago, horangi said:

Is there a particular issue that has you fed up?  Biden was my third from last choice in 2020 (ahead of Harris and Sanders), but I think he's done a fairly good job given the cards dealt.  Yes, I wish we had someone younger, but frankly 'we' voted him in as the candidate, he wasn't foisted on us.  I ask myself the questions: Does the person surround themselves with good advisors and do they listen to them?  Generally in Biden's case, it seems to be true.  Essentially, vote for the positions and competence of the administration, not for the man. 

Yes, the inflation of the last couple years was no fun, but was even less fun just about everywhere else in the world.  Yes the collapse of Afghanistan was hugely disappointing, but the speed of the collapse suggests that the choice was either that or maintaining a forever war.  Sure, the Ukraine invasion sucks, but the administration has done a good job supporting a country everyone expected to collapse in a week's time and inflicted probably the largest strategic defeat of a hostile major power since WWII all without kicking off WWIII.  The Gaza situation is terrible, but it appears the only moderation there has been has been a result of the Biden administration's efforts. 

I know its unrealistic to expect the public to vote based on policy rather then from their hearts, as DMC would no doubt point out were he here.  However, it would be nice if people could point of the politically viable alternative choices that would have prevented or further mitigated these issues.  The House is a dysfunctional mess, so any fixes requiring legislation are not going to happen and even in the first two years, the Senate was on a razor and were not going to take bold steps.  I am actually amazed at just how much was accomplished- the infrastructure bill can be pointed to as a reason why the US economy is in such 'not terrible' shape

Essentially, the world is a mess, and while there are choices to nit-pick with hindsight, I suspect that this is what 'good' looks like, as disheartening as it feels. 

That comes to where my thoughts are right now.   Plus, we're at war with growing fascism and for the more vulnerable of the people in our country one of the at minimum things I can do us to lend my voice to the party not actively pursuing it in the form of voting.

[Tywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

That comes to where my thoughts are right now.   Plus, we're at war with growing fascism and for the more vulnerable of the people in our country one of the at minimum things I can do us to lend my voice to the party not actively pursuing it in the form of voting.

Hate to break it to you, but that war is probably lost. Seems more and more like when, not if. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hate to break it to you, but that war is probably lost. Seems more and more like when, not if. 

No, I don't buy that. Social media amplifies the fringe and can make it less fringe, but this war is far from lost.

[horangi]

10 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

No, I don't buy that. Social media amplifies the fringe and can make it less fringe, but this war is far from lost.

Indeed, nor is it a war that can be truly lost or truly won.  Short of bioengineering our species, we are always going to be fighting our demons that favor authoritarianism and tribalism.  I'm more optimistic about the future, it appears, then most on this board, but even if there are darker days to come, it means more battles to be fought.  

Edited November 20 by horangi

[Tywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

No, I don't buy that. Social media amplifies the fringe and can make it less fringe, but this war is far from lost.

Social media isn't the problem. The Republican party has been taken over by Christian fascists, they have a structural advantage going forward, the last of the sane members are mostly leaving the party and there's no evidence that there's any interest in pivoting back to a more normal understanding of traditional conservatism. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I feel like im watching a slomo trainwreck with 81 y.o. Biden being forced on us as the only alternative to the criminal Trump.

Polling is showing Americans do not want either of these long past thier prime options, yet its becoming clear we will have no other viable choice come next November.

I will not be voting for either shitty choice, sorry just not going to give either option a seal of approval. As much as i despise Republicans, if I even feel this way, im certain there are tens of millions other disaffected moderates, dems and especially younger voters.

This is going to be a historically blunderous dice roll if the Dems think voters are going give them a pass and show up despite crystal clear evidence we dont want this as our choice.

Biden needs to give his LBJ speech, like yesterday.

There's another thing you should ask yourself: are you prepared to live w/ the consequences of this decision? And I’m talking not only about consequences that will impact your own life, but that of other Americans and, yes, the world. Because I may not like it, but this is something that impacts the world. Imagine what would have happened In Ukraine had Trump been the president, for instance. 

One of my best and closest friends is American, hates Trump, and in 2015 she voted for Jill Stein (I know). We had many heated arguments over this decision. She came to regret this decision bitterly quite early on in 2016. Her reason then was, “I don’t like Biden and I will vote my conscience”. Today she says she was full of shit b/c she had no idea Trump’s presidency could have been as bad as it was, and we all know a second term will be significantly worse. 
 

I totally understand the frustration, but sometimes there’s just too much at stake to decide something this important to so many people worldwide based on what/how we feel rather than the greater good, corny and cliched as that last bit was.

Also, @horangi and @Guy Kilmore made very good points as well. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Social media isn't the problem. The Republican party has been taken over by Christian fascists, they have a structural advantage going forward, the last of the sane members are mostly leaving the party and there's no evidence that there's any interest in pivoting back to a more normal understanding of traditional conservatism. 

Since I seem to be digging deep into corny cliches, yes, but there are more of us than there are of them. I don’t think the christofascists have won or are even close to “winning”. I think they’re getting desperate b/c they’re losing ground every day, and only seem to have an advantage at times b/c they’re willing to break the rules and play dirty. That’s why IMO it’s so important to keep at it and not cede an inch. 
They want people to think they’ve “won” and give up, but the truth is, they have nothing to offer to the vast majority of the population. And even some who are still in their camp will eventually leave; for instance, look at the abortion ballot measure in Kansas and Ohio…

[Phylum of Alexandria]

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Social media isn't the problem. The Republican party has been taken over by Christian fascists, they have a structural advantage going forward, the last of the sane members are mostly leaving the party and there's no evidence that there's any interest in pivoting back to a more normal understanding of traditional conservatism. 

Social media helps it spread, and an airtight scaremongering media bubble helped it spread on the right even before then, but I agree the problem is incipient fascism on the right. But it's mostly even now a problem of the base. Most politicians would go back to politics as usual if the incentives were there. And it will take a while for the fascists to learn their lesson, with some of them never learning it, but once MAGA becomes a political dead end, they will be forced back into the reality of persuasive politics.

[Guy Kilmore]

51 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hate to break it to you, but that war is probably lost. Seems more and more like when, not if. 

Nah, things wax and wane.  You're too young to be this cynical.  And post too much to believe that.  And too smart to fall for the powers that want you to believe that. 

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Since I seem to be digging deep into corny cliches, yes, but there are more of us than there are of them.

First off, you're probably just wrong on the face of it - chances are good there are more of them then there are of you.

But also there are more of people who are fine with things then there are not, and that's the real problem. A whole lot of people out there are just fine with other people suffering and dying as long as they aren't too impacted. They'll actually be kind of annoyed at people who will do nonviolent protest and inconvenience them. They just want to live their life as it is and not worry about things too much. 

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

They want people to think they’ve “won” and give up, but the truth is, they have nothing to offer to the vast majority of the population. And even some who are still in their camp will eventually leave; for instance, look at the abortion ballot measure in Kansas and Ohio…

What they offer is not changing too much and the ability to blame others for their problems. They offer not feeling guilty about having nice things and not feeling guilty about not wanting other people to come into the country. And they offer anger and hate, something a whole lot of people enjoy.

I'd also not read too much into the abortion votes. Abortion as a single-ticket item works pretty well. But it isn't most people's primary voting priority, even today. Ohioans and Kansans didn't 'leave'. they just voted for that one thing. They'll dutifully vote Republican in the next election.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Since I seem to be digging deep into corny cliches, yes, but there are more of us than there are of them.

Yeah, I should have made it clearer, but one reason social media helps spread fringe ideas is it makes the idea seem more prevalent and commonplace than it actually is. The threat is real, but it's not nearly as popular as the fascists would like us to think.

[Guy Kilmore]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

First off, you're probably just wrong on the face of it - chances are good there are more of them then there are of you.

But also there are more of people who are fine with things then there are not, and that's the real problem. A whole lot of people out there are just fine with other people suffering and dying as long as they aren't too impacted. They'll actually be kind of annoyed at people who will do nonviolent protest and inconvenience them. They just want to live their life as it is and not worry about things too much. 

What they offer is not changing too much and the ability to blame others for their problems. They offer not feeling guilty about having nice things and not feeling guilty about not wanting other people to come into the country. And they offer anger and hate, something a whole lot of people enjoy.

I'd also not read too much into the abortion votes. Abortion as a single-ticket item works pretty well. But it isn't most people's primary voting priority, even today. Ohioans and Kansans didn't 'leave'. they just voted for that one thing. They'll dutifully vote Republican in the next election.

That not feeling guilty about things seems to ring so true.  It is very seductive, my hope is that they do have that guilty feeling which is something you can touch and move the needle on a bit.

[Ser Reptitious]

I'm pretty sure making their opponents give up in despair (and therefore not voting - or not voting for anyone who actually matters) is a big part of the current batch of U.S. fascists' playbook. So "good job" for anyone playing along with that. 

Thankfully a lot of Americans didn't seem to get the memo in the 2022 and 2023 elections, upsetting the expectations of both pollsters and Republicans. But hey, instead of being encouraged by that, let's just explain why it won't ultimately matter.... 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

First off, you're probably just wrong on the face of it - chances are good there are more of them then there are of you.

I wholeheartedly disagree here. I think it may seem that way at times and in certain places, but I doubt it is true.

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But also there are more of people who are fine with things then there are not, and that's the real problem. A whole lot of people out there are just fine with other people suffering and dying as long as they aren't too impacted.

Maybe, but the point is, the majority in this group will be impacted by many things like cuts in social services, to use one example.

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They'll actually be kind of annoyed at people who will do nonviolent protest and inconvenience them. They just want to live their life as it is and not worry about things too much. 

I messed up breaking up the post, so writing here anyway b/c I don't wanna start over:

Sure, I bet that there are a lot of people who feel that way. The question though is when they are not really able to "live their life as it is".

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

What they offer is not changing too much and the ability to blame others for their problems.

Life as they know it not changing too much is probably something that will be more important to older people. There are several surveys out there showing that younger millenials and zoomers are significantly more progressive than even older millenials and gen xers. 

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They offer not feeling guilty about having nice things and not feeling guilty about not wanting other people to come into the country.

I'm willing to bet that a good chunk of the diehard Trumpers don't have that many nice things, so it's probably more about not being on the absolute bottom of the socio-economic totem pole. Good government can deal w/ that. It probably won't work in 100% of the people, but it will work on many. 

The immigration issue is slightly different, and a lot of it has a lot to do w/ the fucked up media and several conspiracy theories and dog whistles like the great replacement theory and things like that. The right wing media has been fanning the flames of this stuff for years. This is also something that good government can help with and, from what I hear, the US needs a comprehensive immigration reform. That can't happen unless politicians who are willing to tackle it have majorities in both houses of Congress + the WH. 

 

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And they offer anger and hate, something a whole lot of people enjoy.

They offer fear, which is a horrible emotion to feel, and then they manipulate people and transform this fear into anger and hatred, b/c the latter makes people feel more in charge. Humanity has been through this type of thing before, sadly. But again, I don't believe this is something that you can't bring people back from, except for a minority that are just too far gone. 

Not saying it's easy or quick, only that it can be done

 

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I'd also not read too much into the abortion votes. Abortion as a single-ticket item works pretty well. But it isn't most people's primary voting priority, even today. Ohioans and Kansans didn't 'leave'. they just voted for that one thing. They'll dutifully vote Republican in the next election.

It's not about abortion exclusively, it's about losing one's rights. IMO.