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Israel - Hamas War IX


kissdbyfire
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All the reporting that isn't IDF says the opposite about the situations, from medical personnel, civilians trying to leave, to BBC reporters on the ground.

And in fact, what is happening is considered violations of the international 'rules of war' though we all know there never has been such a thing as rules of war, other than on paper or declarations by figures such as popes.  If so, civilians wouldn't die, be enslaved, displaced or suffer all the other horrors of war as they have historically and presently.

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10 minutes ago, Zorral said:

All the reporting that isn't IDF says the opposite about the situations, from medical personnel, civilians trying to leave, to BBC reporters on the ground.

A lot of people say "they shot at us" and then don't say who "they" is. They could provide proof that it's IDF, but for some reason they don't. They could have shown reporters how innocent the tunnels and rooms under Al-Shifa are long ago, but for some reason they don't. 

There is also no "BBC reporters on the ground". The BBC has repeatedly noted it can't verify anything. There are no BBC journalists in Gaza.

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I don’t understand the insistence on the claim that Israel isn't breaking the laws of war, when so many organisations and individuals who deal w/ this type of thing on a daily basis and are experts on the subject keep saying they are. 

For instance, Tom Dannenbaum raises some very good points. He doesn't say 'yes' or 'no' to the question at hand, but he explains the laws of war, and the final point he makes is a very damning one. Would the country that is after a legitimate target still conduct itself the same way if the civilians/collateral damage were their own people? 

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/03/1198908980/is-israel-breaking-the-laws-of-war-in-gaza

There's also the UN, UNWRA and others saying laws of war are being broken. 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143432

Quote

Respect laws of war

Speaking to the “particularly intense” strikes on hospitals and in the vicinity of hospitals in Gaza City, Mr. Türk stressed that international humanitarian law extends special protection to medical units and requires that they be protected and respected at all times.

“Any use by Palestinian armed groups of civilians and civilian objects to shield themselves from attack is in contravention of the laws of war. But such conduct by Palestinian armed groups does not absolve Israel of its obligation to ensure that civilians are spared – that the principles of distinction, precautions in attack and proportionality are respected,” he said.

The UN rights chief also said that it was “extremely distressing” to see what is happening to UN staff in Gaza - the loss of life among UNRWA colleagues "is unprecedented”.

Mr. Türk called “unacceptable” the fact that in UNRWA-run schools over 600 displaced people seeking shelter have been killed or injured. “There is a principle of inviolability of UN premises,” he insisted

 

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40 minutes ago, Ran said:

He can have an opinion, but it is obviously completely divorced from a thorough analysis of and awareness of every single targeting and strike decision, and so means very little. 

I'm sure he knows much more about what is going on than any of us here, given he will have access to various experts and so on. Not to mention, he is not the only person to say that.

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

I know of no case where one commander was killed in exchange for dozens of civilians.

I never said one commander, I said:

Quote

Israel seems perfectly happy to kill dozens of civilians to get at one Hamas commander and possibly some fighters who may or may not be there

That is what happened in the Jabalya camp and al-Buraq school recently (Wikipedia has citations) though?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabalia_refugee_camp_airstrikes

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UN Special Rapporteurs stated the attacks were a "brazen violation of international law – and a war crime."[44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Buraq_school_airstrike

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-killed-hamas-commander-who-held-some-1000-gazans-hostage-at-hospital/

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The IDF says Siam was killed while hiding at the al-Buraq school in Gaza City, along with other Hamas operatives under his command.

You are right that it is not confirmed. Because we don't even know if the commanders are dead.

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

his command and control center, and dozens of militants besides

Any evidence for this that doesn't come from the IDF though? The IDF says commander and fighters are there but there is nothing to back up these claims.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t understand the insistence on the claim that Israel isn't breaking the laws of war, when so many organisations and individuals who deal w/ this type of thing on a daily basis and are experts on the subject keep saying they are. 

For instance, Tom Dannenbaum raises some very good points. He doesn't say 'yes' or 'no' to the question at hand, but he explains the laws of war, and the final point he makes is a very damning one. Would the country that is after a legitimate target still conduct itself the same way if the civilians/collateral damage were their own people? 

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/03/1198908980/is-israel-breaking-the-laws-of-war-in-gaza

There's also the UN, UNWRA and others saying laws of war are being broken. 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143432

 

Wierd that you highlighted a quote that blames Hamas.

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t understand the insistence on the claim that Israel isn't breaking the laws of war, when so many organisations and individuals who deal w/ this type of thing on a daily basis and are experts on the subject keep saying they are. 

As does Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University.

What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html

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.... It is time for leaders and senior scholars of institutions dedicated to researching and commemorating the Holocaust to publicly warn against the rage- and vengeance-filled rhetoric that dehumanizes the population of Gaza and calls for its extinction. It is time to speak out against the escalating violence on the West Bank, perpetrated by Israeli settlers and I.D.F. troops, which now appears to also be sliding toward ethnic cleansing under the cover of war in Gaza; several Palestinian villages have reportedly self-evacuated under threats from settlers.

I urge such venerable institutions as the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., and Yad Vashem in Jerusalem to step in now and stand at the forefront of those warning against war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and the crime of all crimes, genocide.

If we truly believe that the Holocaust taught us a lesson about the need — or really, the duty — to preserve our own humanity and dignity by protecting those of others, this is the time to stand up and raise our voices, before Israel’s leadership plunges it and its neighbors into the abyss.

There is still time to stop Israel from letting its actions become a genocide. We cannot wait a moment longer.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t understand the insistence on the claim that Israel isn't breaking the laws of war, when so many organisations and individuals who deal w/ this type of thing on a daily basis and are experts on the subject keep saying they are.

Anyone who categorically says they know this are basically politicizing and don't actually know. Without knowledge of targeting and strike decisions and underlying intelligence, they genuinely do not know if an attack meets the requirements of the laws of armed combat. We know the IDF has legal teams and manuals that outline the laws of armed combat, and military experts (rather than humanitarian experts) like John Spencer seem to think that the IDF is serious about them, while acknowledging that their interpretations of the laws and their calculus is not necessarily the same as what the US or another country does.

I recall seeing a single article where like three or four experts said they were definitely breaking the laws of war, and then one guy was willing to actually say, "Well, it could be lawful, but ... it's hard to know without more information, we can't judge it." Literally one honest expert on these matters who acknowledges that the calculus requires a lot more knowledge than these experts actually have.

UNRWA is a whole other mess.

@Craving Peaches I already addressed Jabalya. The senior commander was one of a number of targets. The IDF says that the Al-Buraq strike killed a commander and other Hamas militants, and we'll never get from the Health Ministry how many of the "civilians" allegedly killed were actually those militants. Could have been all of them, for all you know.

Edited by Ran
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And when did I say hamas is blameless? Hamas is the #1 to be blamed since they started the current war w/ their atrocious attack on October 7.

And I didn't highlight anything, I just didn't get the option of "posting as plain text" for whatever reason.

Edited by kissdbyfire
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1 minute ago, Zorral said:

As does Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University.

What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html

 

Yup. Saw 2 different interviews w/ him just yesterday, both excellent and overflowing w/ something that seems to be missing here at times: common sense.

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18 minutes ago, Ran said:

There is also no "BBC reporters on the ground".

I never imagined that I would witness something so monstrous in my lifetime and I thought 9/11 was horrific.  The crimes committed by Hamas go well beyond that by any standard of morality.  A line was crossed that should never have been crossed and Isreal has no choice but to remove Hamas from Palestine by every means.  I'm appalled by the rise of anti-semitism on display around the world.  Apparently we didn't learn anything from WWII.

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4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

As does Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University.

Quote

As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is currently taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening.

While opinions, I appreciate that he's actually willing to go so far as an actual expert should: that they think things look like they may be war crimes, probably are in their mind, but they don't know until they understand the full scope of Israeli information, decision-making, etc.

Saying that he agrees that there are definitely war crimes happening when he doesn't go that far is pretty dishonest of you.

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2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Weird statement.

Is it? I would be very wary of anyone who is sure that their view of morality is indisputably correct. That's the clear implication of the statement I was responding to.

The rest of your post doesn't appear to disagree with that, so I'm going to assume you read something into one sentence that just isn't there.

 

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12 minutes ago, Ran said:

We should have worried about how many more Nazis were created for every Nazi killed.

If this is supposed to be a reference to what I said earlier, it is a poor one, and completely misrepresents what I said. What I said was that killing innocent civilians would radicalise people, not that killing Hamas members would radicalise people. Unless you are implying all the civilians that died are Hamas members.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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 @Ran, it's not just about indiscriminate bombing in densely populated areas, that was,my point. I agree, there's a lot we can't know and won't know until much later, if ever. But take the link from NPR, for instance. That professor of international law isn't politicising anything, he doesn't say yes or no, he simply explains what are the "rules of war". He lists them and explains them. And one is that when one side attacks another knowing there will be civilian deaths, they must assess whether the target would mean a "gain" that is significant enough to justify the collateral damage. The other very important one is, would that tactical gain be so huge that they'd still attack if the civilians in harms way were their own people. If the answer to that last question is no, then the answer to "is Israel breaking the laws of war" is yes. 

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2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

More than 4000 children reported dead in just over a month is abnormal when compared to other conflicts.

Someone else said this in another read: the number of dead children is terrible, but dead people is the issue. DEAD PEOPLE. I am concerned about the number of DEAD PEOPLE, because the lives of their parents and the grandparents and their great grandparents are just as important.

As for the number of dead children being abnormal, as you have constantly pointed out, half the population is under 18. If 12,500 people have died (I think you pointed that out) and 4,000 are children instead of 6,250, I say thank the gods parents moved south to get their kids out of the danger zone. We are still saying that the number doesn’t include the number of Hamas soldiers, right? Hence the claims posted here and in the US Politics thread that 1% of the population of Gaza has been killed. I can well imagine that 12,500 Hamas soldiers have been killed.

Edited by Fragile Bird
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1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

If 12,500 people have died (I think you pointed that out)

I don't think I said that. The Hamas-run ministry says 'only' ~11,000 have died. I believe you could reach 12,500 if you included the number of people missing under the rubble.

3 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I can well imagine that 12,5000 Hamas soldiers have been killed.

Do you mean 12,500 rather than 125,000? I don't think Hamas has as many as the latter. 

5 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I am concerned about the number of DEAD PEOPLE, because the lives of their parents and the grandparents and their great grandparents are just as important.

I focus on the number of children because as others pointed out, fighters might be included among the dead adults. Not because I don't care about people other than children, as you seem to be implying (apologies if you are not, but that is how the comment comes across to me).

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12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And one is that when one side attacks another knowing there will be civilian deaths, they must assess whether the target would mean a "gain" that is significant enough to justify the collateral damage.

Right.

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The other very important one is, would that tactical gain be so huge that they'd still attack if the civilians in harms way were their own people. If the answer to that last question is no, then the answer to "is Israel breaking the laws of war" is yes. 

And we don't know that answer. Someone should put it to the IDF, I suppose, but it's a hypothetical that no one else can answer for them.

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Is there anyone who isn't the IDF to back this up though?

Is there anyone who isn't the Hamas-run Health Ministry able to confirm and verify the civilian vs. militant deaths?

Guys, there's a serious fog of war on this conflict.

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