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Israel - Hamas War IX


kissdbyfire
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Television series, Rebus season 3 (2006), 4th episode, scene opens on a Glasgow newspaper, upper left corner column caption, "Israel adds ground forces to air strikes."

Second time in two weeks, is it? that a fictional television series out of the past (not a contemporary drama) references Israel at war that I just chance upon.

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‘Please stop this.’ Gaza’s hospitals are failing under the weight of war. US medical groups are scrambling to help

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/11/middleeast/gaza-al-shifa-hospital-israel-attack/index.html

Quote

 

Dr. Mohammed Ghneim has not left his hospital in Gaza City in four weeks. He can’t remember the last time he slept or ate, and his blue scrubs are stained in the blood of patients who’ve died in his arms.

His voice cracks under the weight of the horrors he’s seen: fetuses pulled from the wombs of dying mothers, children with crushed lungs struggling to breathe, and his own colleagues – doctors, nurses and EMTs – transported to the hospital morgue in body bags.

“We are doing our best – this is why we haven’t left here for days – but the situation is very horrible. There’s no way to describe it in any language or with any words,” Ghneim told CNN in a voice message on November 7, as sounds of chaos and panic unfolded around him. “Many times I want to go to the side and cry, but unfortunately there is no time.” ....

 

I'm trying to figure out why, at the start of this war, that among the atrocities Hamas committed, and which I had no trouble believing had been committed, I kept a certain cynicism as to the stories of babies deliberated beheaded, while now I have no trouble at all believing the horror stories out of Gaza of what's happening to babies. What is different here?

Edited by Zorral
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8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So there's no siege because they say there's no siege?

All the reporting, including up-to-date satellite imagery, show that it is true that the encirclement had not been completed and the east remained open as the IDF said.

How long that will be the case, I do not know, but there's supporting evidence that doesn't come from the IDF. Perhaps they had the satellites hacked and changed their imagery, I don't know.

Speaking of the IDF, here's a conversation they posted in which they helped get the people who wanted to leave Rantisi hospital safely:

 

 

Edited by Ran
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Very worrying. Now we have the President (saying there are no innocents in Gaza: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8), Prime Minister (https://m.timesofindia.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-cites-amalek-theory-to-justify-gaza-killings/articleshow/104802548.cms), Defence Minister (called Palestinians 'Human Animals' and said they would be dealt with accordingly, he said this directly after announcing the decision to cut off food water etc. to everyone in the strip, so it does not sound like it was just Hamas he was talking about, watch the video to see for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPdR3E4hCk), this minister saying 'losing land is a price Arabs understand' (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/israeli-minister-losing-land-is-price-arabs-understand/video/ae361aa1f730d4979e05c2b47c980f0f) and now the Minister of Agriculture all making statements that sound like support for ethnic cleansing. If these comments are only referring to Hamas and not everyone in Gaza, they have done a very poor job of explaining that, especially the Amalekites comment which I don't think can be construed as refering just to Hamas, since it is very explicit about the need to kill all the Amalekites, not just the fighters, but the women, children and animals). Not to mention multiple other people saying Gaza should be nuked (https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-minister-says-nuking-gaza-an-option-pm-suspends-him-from-cabinet-meetings/)(https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231010-israel-mk-says-use-doomsday-weapons-against-gaza/), saying the children of Gaza brought it upon themselves (https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-politician-the-children-of-gaza-have-brought-this-upon-themselves/). And the leaked proposed plan to force all the Palestinians off Gaza and into the Sinai peninsula (https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/).

I don't know how everyone else feels but I am very concerned with all these remarks, and unlike what people were saying in the previous thread, it doesn't seem to me to be just a few low ranking fringe extremists indulging in this sort of rhetoric. 

 

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5 hours ago, Zorral said:

‘Please stop this.’ Gaza’s hospitals are failing under the weight of war. US medical groups are scrambling to help

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/11/middleeast/gaza-al-shifa-hospital-israel-attack/index.html

I'm trying to figure out why, at the start of this war, that among the atrocities Hamas committed, and which I had no trouble believing had been committed, I kept a certain cynicism as to the stories of babies deliberated beheaded, while now I have no trouble at all believing the horror stories out of Gaza of what's happening to babies. What is different here?

A consistently anti-Jewish bias.

Edited by Bael's Bastard
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8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

A consistently anti-Jewish bias.

As has been said over and over and over again, this is simply not true. Trying to talk it into existence benefits nobody. Opposing the actions of this Israeli government and military does not = anti Semitism. Cut it the fuck out. 

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4 minutes ago, Relic said:

As has been said over and over and over again, this is simply not true. Trying to talk it into existence benefits nobody. Opposing the actions of this Israeli government and military does not = anti Semitism. Cut it the fuck out. 

It is absofuckinglutely true. I don't give a shit how many Israeli friends some random guy on the internet claims to have. If you are asking why you are skeptical of Hamas atrocities that have been attested to by ZAKA first responders among other witnesses to the bodies but knee-jerk believe and perpetuate every depiction of Israel being some evil force, you are showing your whole ass. 

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2 hours ago, Relic said:

As has been said over and over and over again, this is simply not true. Trying to talk it into existence benefits nobody. Opposing the actions of this Israeli government and military does not = anti Semitism. Cut it the fuck out. 

Antisemitism is real and it’s disgusting and dangerous and we have to fight it every step of the way, until it is becomes a vile lesson from the past. We’re not there yet, not even close, and the rise in antisemitism worldwide is very scary and concerning and it got even worse after the terrorist attack on October 7. 
 

Criticism of Israel’s government and its policies and the way they are conducting this war is 100% valid IMO, and not only valid but necessary given the very troubling reports we’ve been getting from the start. 

Also very troubling IMO is conflating hateful bigotry and criticism. When criticism of the Israeli government is equated to either one being antisemitic or a self-hating Jew, it stifles the debate. And it very much feels like an attempt at shutting critics up because I imagine most people would rather not engage than be labeled an antisemite or a self-hating Jew.

 

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I’d say there is a lot of anti semitism fuelling anti Israel debate, we certainly see it in the marches over the past few weeks.

However, I highly doubt it’s a factor in debates on here. I’d give people the benefit of the doubt. 
 

I also think the view of Jews as ‘white’ does affect how certain people position themselves in this issue. 

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

I also think the view of Jews as ‘white’ does affect how certain people position themselves in this issue. 

Yeah. I think like 50% or more of Israel Jews are of Mizrahi descent, Jews originating from North Africa or the Middle East, so it seems strange. And another 20% of Israelis are Arabs of one flavor or another. Really silly.

Speaking of Arabs, this attack by Hamas on October 7th seems, at least for now, galvanized the Arab-Israelis to feel much more fellowship with other Israelis, per this poll Reuters cited a couple of days ago. Seeing Hamas terrorists target and murder fellow Arabs because they happened to be Israeli seems to have been a harsh lesson.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:
7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

 

Yeah. I think like 50% or more of Israel Jews are of Mizrahi descent, Jews originating from North Africa or the Middle East, so it seems strange. And another 20% of Israelis are Arabs of one flavor or another. Really silly.

Really messes with the coloniser narrative too

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Someone obviously hasn't been reading the Israel v Civilians thread.

Or perhaps they have, and this is just another bullshit Western high horse case of Palestinian babies being viewed as Not Real People.

Pardon me?  

Palestinians are absolutely real people.  Israeli’s are real people.  Likhud turning a blind eye to Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians is absolutely unjustifiable and a war crime.  Hamas attacking and murdering civilians at a music festival is absolutely a war crime.

Yes?

@SuperHans

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17 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

yes the crimes of hamas are fucking horrible, you could say the same of israel, i think, the crimes commited by them (settlers, idf) are plenty and fucking horrible to, there is no shortage of stories by palestinian survivors of israeli opression in gaza and in the west bank, rapes, torture, murder, but somehow those crimes dont generate the same fervour to stop them(even though they are being perpetrated sistematically, for a long long time), those crimes dont requiere that we stop them by "any means necessary",why is that? so much sorrow and tears but somehow the suffering of palestinain people dont deserve the same level of empathy granted to israelis. palestianian people are humans to you know, they deserve better.

i think also that "by any means necessary" is a very problematic thing to say and belive, isnt that what "terrorist" say?

edited to say that the thinking "by any means..." is a complex one, because for example i do belive that in fighting opression, and im thinking in a specic example, that of the fight against the dictatorship in chile. in guerrila warfeare you sometimes have to use tactics that are considered to be "terroristic" and i think that some times those are justyfied in the fight against opression so i dont know, its a  nuanced problem i think

 

We can't turn a blind eye  to the beheading of infants and burning people alive.  It simply isn't justifiable and the fact that Hamas says it will do it again;  means that yes, Isreal must remove Hamas immediately and with all possible means.  Isreal has a right to exist and Palestinians have a right to be free of Hamas.

We can't become catatonic or respond with learned helplessness.  We shouldn't accept someone expressing hatred of others while expecting tolerance for themselves. 

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We can't become catatonic or respond with learned helplessness.  We shouldn't accept someone expressing hatred of others while expecting tolerance for themselves. 

I couldn’t agree more. And I imagine the same feeling is true for most civilians, both Israeli and Palestinians.
 

And that’s why the hateful rhetoric coming from both Hamas and some members of the Israeli government must be called out. 

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9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Welp, so much for that option. Netanyahu says Palestinian authority will not be allowed to rule over Gaza either. 

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4305628-netanyahu-israel-opposes-palestinian-authority-gaza/

That seems like a horrible plan, the only way any of this is worth it is if it ends with a stable non Hamas government in Gaza.

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