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Marvel's Multiverse of Maddening Returns


Myrddin
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12 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Can anyone think of anything ever that started good, fucked up and got shit then brought it back? 

I can't, once you are screwed you are screwed, they might make good films/TV shows again, but they have burnt their bridges as far as the box office is concerned. 

Batman comes to mind with the Tim Burton movies followed by oodles of absolute dreck and then the Dark Knight series (and the latest Batman wasn't bad). 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well I’d say in general the quality IS worse in the latest phase, but otherwise I agree with your post, people aren’t going to watch the smaller, non event movies in cinemas. 

You and @Derfel Cadarn are onto something here. A former co-worker told me that for her to go out and see a movie with her husband involved: 

1. Babysitter costs

2. Being mindful of the time

3. Upfront costs alongside access to discretionary spending

All up, she told me a night out for the two of them sans the kids when parents or friends weren't around to babysit cost about anywhere from $150-200 AUD when you factor in babysitting costs, gas/transport, movie ticket prices, dinner, etc. My jaw dropped, @Heartofice. Like, entire floors of our building were shattered as my jaw smashed through them like some kind of mass driver hitting terminal velocity. Nearly $200 for a single night to go out and see a good flick? Mind you, they also went out to one of the big expensive cinemas (Event Cinemas), which are...dreadful. It's an audio/visual/olfactory sensory overload for me, those cinemas. 

In contrast to that, we have a little one-screen cinema not too far from where we live, where they have cheaper tickets during the middle of the week, and two tickets to see The Marvels recently cost us a little over $30 for two people (after factoring in the online booking surcharge). 

So if you're going to pay that much up front as my co-worker did, you want to make sure it's a movie that you know you'll enjoy, that's been marketed well, that's also playing at comfortable times - not too early, not too late. And if it's a long one, have a goddamn intermission (looking at you Scorsese!). People are going to be more cautious with their discretionary spending when inflation and interest rates are increasing, and discretionary spending is reduced and WPI isn't increasing alongside CPI (the two famously started diverging in the English-speaking world around 1973 - look kids, an economics tangent!). 

I don't know how popular Disney+ or any of the other streaming services are, but if indeed these movies are available on platforms mere weeks or a few months after release, why not just wait? Especially if the movies aren't Cultural Events the way Endgame most certainly was prior to and during release. (Almost makes me wonder - if we brought back the 6 month wait between a film exiting cinemas and being released on DVD/BluRay/VHS, would that lead to people being more likely to not want to wait so long and see a movie while it's out?)

Edited by IlyaP
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47 minutes ago, horangi said:

Batman comes to mind with the Tim Burton movies followed by oodles of absolute dreck and then the Dark Knight series (and the latest Batman wasn't bad). 

The latest Batman was so beautiful I had to see it twice, just to soak in the gorgeous work done by cinematographer Greig Fraser. 

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9 hours ago, sifth said:

Well a lot of their audience isn’t showing up for the stuff they are creating, so it make’s logical sense to try something new. Both Ant Man 3 and The Marvels bombed this year. They better hope audiences turn up for Deadpool 3, but even that film is riding the nostalgia band wagon, similar to No Way Home.

I think a good deal of their audience has simply aged out. Deadpool will do fine, but I suspect it’ll be down somewhat from Deadpool 2. Just a feeling.

Quote

Don’t get me wrong; GoTG 3 did really well this year and was a great film as well, but James Gunn is no longer part of the MCU and the new blood aren’t bring their A game. 

I think GOTG had the benefit of being a stand alone story within the MCU and kind of unique. Like the MCU’s Star Wars without any of the legacy canon garbage that files so much rage these days. 

3 hours ago, Rhom said:

Erik Kain's reviews are generally a little hit or miss for me (I do think he hits more than he misses though).  His new review for Loki is spot on I think though.

Loki Season 2 is a Blueprint For How to Save the MCU

This from the closing paragraph really stuck with me:

Really this is what we've been talking about here today.  Shang Chi is about a father and a son and their conflict over the loss of their wife/mother.  Black Widow is about a search for family.  Make the MCU "small" again. 

I said this many times in the past:  Ironman was about industrial espionage!  Hulk has always been The Fugitive... but green.  The MCU took off because it was telling grounded stories that people could believe.  It was much more influenced by Batman Begins than by X-Men (at first).

Except X-Men (2000); the one that kicked off the modern CBM film genre* was incredibly grounded, aside from the super powers. 

*honorable mentions to Blade (1998) and The Matrix (1999)

 

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The idea that superhero stories need to be 'grounded' to work is fucking wild to me. They're superheroes. It's true that some of the MCU films have been hurt by bigger endings that didn't fit- but often it's because the big set-piece is shit, not because it's big.

 

 

Black Widow is a case in point. The scramble to escape the falling fortress could have been an incredible tense set-piece, they just didn't know how to do it.

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7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Black Widow is a case in point. The scramble to escape the falling fortress could have been an incredible tense set-piece, they just didn't know how to do it.

It was also dreadfully CGI-y in the bad way, in that it wasn't smart CGI, but that current era of rushed CGI that's made the news over the last few years, where it's so obvious that jumps out to viewers and removes any sense of verisimilitude.

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1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I think a good deal of their audience has simply aged out. Deadpool will do fine, but I suspect it’ll be down somewhat from Deadpool 2. Just a feeling.

I think GOTG had the benefit of being a stand alone story within the MCU and kind of unique. Like the MCU’s Star Wars without any of the legacy canon garbage that files so much rage these days. 

Except X-Men (2000); the one that kicked off the modern CBM film genre* was incredibly grounded, aside from the super powers. 

*honorable mentions to Blade (1998) and The Matrix (1999)

 

You mean the one where the climax of the movie is how Magneto is going to use a magic machine to turn an entire city into mutants? :lol: 

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2 hours ago, Rhom said:

You mean the one where the climax of the movie is how Magneto is going to use a magic machine to turn an entire city into mutants? :lol: 

Oh, like you've never. 

"Aside from the super powers" I said.

The adults more or less behave like adults. There isn't an excess of pithy banter or sight gags every 90 seconds. There's never any winking at the audience or acknowledging the 4th wall, much less breaking it. Many of the character interactions, especially between Logan and Rogue feel meaningful and engaging. 

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Coming to the end of its first week, The Marvels has had three consecutive days of domestic box office where the per-theater daily-average was well below $1000 and one day below $500. When you factor in multiple daily screenings, this thing is playing in some legit empty theaters. And it's still losing ground to The Flash. What a fucking disaster.  

I imagine there are many urgent meetings in many movie studio board rooms happening right now, and not just at Disney. 

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14 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

When you factor in multiple daily screenings, this thing is playing in some legit empty theaters. And it's still losing ground to The Flash. What a fucking disaster.  

It was reported to me by a theater owner here in Sydney that the newly rebuilt IMAX cinema in Darling Harbor in downtown Sydney had empty screenings of The Marvels on its opening week. We're not talking some podunk town in west jesus nowhere, but the biggest city in Australia. 

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7 hours ago, horangi said:

Batman comes to mind with the Tim Burton movies followed by oodles of absolute dreck and then the Dark Knight series (and the latest Batman wasn't bad). 

I'm not sure marvel would be happy to wait 15 years or so before they start making money again. 

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8 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The idea that superhero stories need to be 'grounded' to work is fucking wild to me. They're superheroes. It's true that some of the MCU films have been hurt by bigger endings that didn't fit- but often it's because the big set-piece is shit, not because it's big.

 

 

Black Widow is a case in point. The scramble to escape the falling fortress could have been an incredible tense set-piece, they just didn't know how to do it.

Depends what you mean by ‘grounded’, but I completely believe a good superhero movie still needs characters that are believable, whose motivations we understand, have a central conflict to their character that makes their journey interesting, and generally a bit of charisma from the actor to bring it all out. 
 

Tony Stark had all of those things, and most of all we pretty much understood who he was within minutes, his character was easy to grasp. The best MCU characters work that way.

Many of the other MCU heroes don’t have any of that, and the movies completely suffer without it. Pointing to Captain Marvel who for the life of you I could not describe her character, and whose only conflict was she couldn’t believe how awesome she was. But also stalwarts like Dr Strange don’t really have strong grounding to carry movies. 
 

They turned Thor into the butt of jokes and Ant Man is basically pointless in his own movie. 
 

Without characters to carry you through a movie you won’t be invested in any of the plot. So actually it does matter if you are going to have a massive 3rd act set piece, because we won’t care, even if it’s good, if we don’t care about the characters.

I don’t love the big set piece at the end of Winter Soldier but I enjoyed it because it was focussed around 2 characters I was invested in. I can’t say the same about 60% of MCU finales. 
 

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5 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Coming to the end of its first week, The Marvels has had three consecutive days of domestic box office where the per-theater daily-average was well below $1000 and one day below $500. When you factor in multiple daily screenings, this thing is playing in some legit empty theaters. And it's still losing ground to The Flash. What a fucking disaster.  

I imagine there are many urgent meetings in many movie studio board rooms happening right now, and not just at Disney. 

Plus both a Hunger Games Prequel and Trolls Band Together come out this weekend. One tracking over 100 minion and the other tracking to make around 70 million, so odds are The Marvels will be finishing in third place in it's second week. Another first for the MCU.

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16 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Issue isnt the fans, toxic tho they are. Its the loss of the casual audience who turned up with kids.

Another dynamic is that the original "kid" audience is now all grown up. My boys are now both in high school and neither are interested in Marvel. Well, they both saw GotG3, but I think Shang Chi was the last one we've all four seen in the theater together.

None of the new batch of movies has felt as kid friendly. Not in the kiddie sense, but in the draw. Back in the day, all the kids were dressed as Iron Man, Cap, Hulk, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Black Widow, etc. I think the only Marvel costumes I've seen these last few Halloweens is maybe one Captain Marvel (a year ago). Marvel isn't grabbing the imagination of the current crop of 6-12 year olds. 

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