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A nice post I found on Tumblr which elaborates on the Madonna/whore complex the fandom has regarding Jaime and Cersei's relationship.


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25 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The thing with Tywin is that we've seen what happens when he was allowed to run Westeros without meaningful interference, and it was almost universally recognised as a golden age of peace and prosperity with rainbows and happy bunnies and etc. In Tywin's mind, I have no doubt that creating examples of the agents who threatened his rule (the Reynes, Tarbecks, Darklyns etc.) was necessary in order to ensure that lasting peace, and so on. Was it actually necessary? Probably not. But there is a chain of reasoning there with a worthwhile goal.

Tywin never once talks about peace. It's not his goal. His goal is his own power (and securing it) as well as the Lannister family name. If his goal was peace, he wouldn't have gone into the Riverlands and just started burning and pillaging because his son was captured by Lysa Tully. He would have sent Lysa a raven and tried to work things out in a normal way, like a normal person. But his goal isn't peace. Again, he could care less about peace. He cares about control and power and no one ever "besmirching" the Lannister name. 

Also, I'm pretty sure this would be the argument behind any authoritarian regime, and I'm pretty sure you've said anti-communist things in other places. So, I'd think you would be against authoritarianism. 

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Well both could.

Nah.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I have.

I haven't.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

How do we know that?? Cersei is perfectly capable of doing and saying that. Why would she lie?

She was screaming "what are you doing" to Jaime when he was saving Bran initially and had only complained about what Jaime did when she found out Bran will survive.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin never once talks about peace. It's not his goal. His goal is his own power (and securing it) as well as the Lannister family name. If his goal was peace, he wouldn't have gone into the Riverlands and just started burning and pillaging because his son was captured by Lysa Tully. He would have sent Lysa a raven and tried to work things out in a normal way, like a normal person. But his goal isn't peace. Again, he could care less about peace. He cares about control and power and no one ever "besmirching" the Lannister name. 

Tywin's goal isn't actually his own power, his goal is to improve prestige, influence and reputation of House Lannister as much as possible. For Tywin power is actually the means to that end. This is why when he has power, he treats it like a job and hence is a very good administrator. This is also why he was perfectly fine with his position under Robert as House Lannister was the second House after the royal one, and the royal House was indebted to the Lannisters to boot. 

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1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin never once talks about peace. It's not his goal. His goal is his own power (and securing it) as well as the Lannister family name. If his goal was peace, he wouldn't have gone into the Riverlands and just started burning and pillaging because his son was captured by Lysa Tully. He would have sent Lysa a raven and tried to work things out in a normal way, like a normal person. But his goal isn't peace. Again, he could care less about peace. He cares about control and power and no one ever "besmirching" the Lannister name.

Oh, certainly, Tywin's principal preocuppation is his own power and the prestige, influence etc. of his house. But I think he values peace too - not necessarily for its own sake - but peace on his terms is good from his perspective. He is willing to go to war to achieve those terms, and maintain his own power and influence, but so long as he or his are in that position, he doesn't start wars or stir up trouble for the sake of it.

I see a definite parallel to Roose Bolton there: his goal is "a peaceful land, a quiet people". With, left unspoken but definitely a condition, him in prime position.

One of the things that's interesting about the Tyrion thing is that he reacts in basically exactly the same way as Jaime (who is perhaps the best of the principal Lannisters), just on a bigger scale and in a less impulsive manner. All of Tywin's children have something of him in them (pace Genna): Cersei has his cruelty, Jaime has his pride, and Tyrion, well, we know that Tyrion got pretty much the lot.

But that's the thing when we're looking at Cersei vs Tywin. Tywin is a bad man and I'm not going to argue otherwise. But Cersei has taken only Tywin's worst qualities. Anything in there that makes Tywin an effective governor and administrator, a good leader, pretty much all of that is missing.

Quote

Also, I'm pretty sure this would be the argument behind any authoritarian regime, and I'm pretty sure you've said anti-communist things in other places. So, I'd think you would be against authoritarianism. 

You may be thinking of someone else. While it's not impossible I have said something with that implication, I try to keep my personal political opinions off this board.

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Again, he could care less about peace.

Now you're going it on purpose.

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On 11/16/2023 at 10:55 PM, Dofs said:

Cersei absolutely did have a huge influence on Jaime, comparing her to a devil on Jaime's shoulder isn't that far off. That said, Jaime definitely doesn't need an angel on his other shoulder and Jaime's redemption arc isn't about whom he listens to, Cersei the devil or Brienne the angel. A lot of people definitely do tie Jaime's arc to him choosing Brienne over Cersei, but the thing is, in the meat of his arc in aSoS Cersei wasn't relevant at all. Jaime's arc is about honour and his place in the world, not about what romantic partner he chooses.

I agree. I have said before that I think underneath it all, Jaime is fundamentally and instinctually a good and decent person who has learned how to be a bad one (mainly, though not exclusively, from Tywin and Cersei). The Bran incident almost highlights this. Pushing Bran out of the window may well have been the worst thing he ever did, in a period when he was at pretty much his lowest moral ebb, but even at that moment, his instinct, his first reaction, was to save him.

He doesn't need an angel on his shoulder to set him right, rather he just needs to rediscover his own nature. Brienne was a useful catalyst in bringing him back to himself, but she wasn't the only thing going on at the time, and he doesn't need her hanging around in order to improve: he just needs to be free from Cersei's and Tywin's influence, because the power to be better has been within him all along.

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1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

But that's the thing when we're looking at Cersei vs Tywin. Tywin is a bad man and I'm not going to argue otherwise. But Cersei has taken only Tywin's worst qualities. Anything in there that makes Tywin an effective governor and administrator, a good leader, pretty much all of that is missing.

Again, first, I dont think Tywin has good qualities. However, I assume what you mean is capable administration, and....not driving his allies away like Cersei does. 

1. First, I think Tywin actually...made similar mistakes as Cersei, Cersei's were just put into mega overdrive. I think House Lannister will lose everything, and I think a primary reason why will because they all hate House Lannister precisely because of who Tywin was (and now Cersei is). 

2. Cersei needed training to be a capable administrator, but Tywin treats her like a brood mare. Of course she isn't capable. He didn't give her the proper training, or hire someone to do so. Which honestly seems extremely short sighted if his plan was always to marry her to a King (Just to give an alternate parenting perspective, I am pretty sure Margerry Tyrell HAS been prepared by her grandmother, father, or a tutor in how to be an administrator. At least it appears she has had some training based on her behavior. As well, Catelyn was clearly prepared on some level to be an administrator. Again, probably because her father had no male heir for some time when she was a child, but still, she was treated as an heir for a time.) If you want your daughter to be Queen, you should probably do something to prepare her to be Queen besides just get her married. But Tywin truly doesn't seem to understand the basics of how to raise children. He just treats everyone, including his own children as pawns. When you treat humans this way, it tends to have poor results. 

3. In case it wasn't clear in the previous point, Tywin should be blamed in large part for who Cersei is. I think the primary argument that somehow Cersei, while being raised by someone who....basically shows 0 love to his children, wouldn't ....end up fucked up. How? How could Cersei have ended up good? Her role model is a horrible human being, and he treats her like she doesn't deserve to see him as a role model. That is a great way to raise a monster. A combination of horrible lessons followed by telling them they aren't good enough. 

4. This is not about Cersei, but...this goes for Tyrion, too. Like, Tyrion is clearly intelligent and capable, and Tywin essentially made Tyrion hate house Lannister. His own hatred for Tyrion almost certainly effected how Cersei felt about Tyrion as well. If you think kids don't pick up the dislike parents have for someone, let me tell you about how racist kids are usually who have racist parents. They pick it up real quick. Tywin had two children who could have carried on his legacy, and in one case, he essentially ignored her, and in the other case, although he gave him positions, he also told him how much he hated him pretty much every chance he got, and I'd argue was happy to see him executed. 

5. I get it, we cannot completely blame who people are as adults on our parents. We after all, do get to make decisions. But as I see you have pointed out right above here, Jaime needed to get away from Tywin and Cersei to be a better person. I agree with this. Tyrion and Cersei ALSO need this, however, unlike Jaime...they are still seeking Tywin's approval in some weird fucked up ways. Cersei constantly thinks about what "Tywin would have done" and Tyrion is always thinking something like, "Are you proud of me now father?" They are both forever, (or at least so far), haunted by how Tywin raised them, and the lack of approval he had for them. Essentially the are both becoming Tywin. You said Cersei was the worst version of Tywin, but...I'd just say she is a less educated (and more paranoid) version of him. If you want to be crass, a stupider version....but I'd say education is a large part of the difference (as I get a feeling that normally Westerosi noble women don't get the same leadership as Westerosi noble men, and this goes especially for Cersei who mildly talks about it in one chapter when remembering her childhood). Tyrion is just a Lannister hating version of him. 

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Tywin's goal isn't actually his own power, his goal is to improve prestige, influence and reputation of House Lannister as much as possible. For Tywin power is actually the means to that end. This is why when he has power, he treats it like a job and hence is a very good administrator. This is also why he was perfectly fine with his position under Robert as House Lannister was the second House after the royal one, and the royal House was indebted to the Lannisters to boot. 

If this was Tywin's goal, then he failed spectacularly. He raised 3 children who are majorly messed up, all have daddy issues, and who's goals either don't align or are going to directly destroy House Lannister's prestige, influence, and reputation. Tyrion wants to kill everyone in his family and has already become a kinslayer. Cersei thinks she is being Tywin while doing truly horrible things that will make everyone hate house Lannister even more than they already do. And Jaime, I guess the one doing the least to destroy house Lannister, refused to be Tywin's heir and also actively has thoughts that if followed through would destroy the things Tywin compared about most (Jaime constantly thinks about saying, "Hey Tommen and Myrcella are my children." Dont' know that he would ever follow through with it, but he thinks about it all the time). 

See, I don't think that was Tywin's main goal though. That is what he said was his main goal while really wanting power for himself. If he wanted to make House Lannister the most influential, prestigious house forever, than...he should have done a hell of a lot better job at raising/preparing his children for leadership. Oh, and I agree he was okay with being House #2 to Baratheon. However, I think he always planned a hostile takeover once Robert died. He was far too prepared to invade the Riverlands. Far too prepared. 

I think Tywin saying his goal is only about "House Lannister" is kind of like when Tyrion says what he wants to do in King's Landing is "justice". Tyrion concerns himself little with actual justice, in the same way that Tywin didn't really do much to improve House Lannister's standing long term, and instead has set the house up for possible destruction. Tywin reminds me of a long list of tyrants in history who's children immediately lost power, because their power almost completely relied upon themselves being in power (because they trusted no one else with administration except themselves). 

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48 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, first, I dont think Tywin has good qualities. However, I assume what you mean is capable administration, and....not driving his allies away like Cersei does. 

1. First, I think Tywin actually...made similar mistakes as Cersei, Cersei's were just put into mega overdrive. I think House Lannister will lose everything, and I think a primary reason why will because they all hate House Lannister precisely because of who Tywin was (and now Cersei is). 

2. Cersei needed training to be a capable administrator, but Tywin treats her like a brood mare. Of course she isn't capable. He didn't give her the proper training, or hire someone to do so. Which honestly seems extremely short sighted if his plan was always to marry her to a King (Just to give an alternate parenting perspective, I am pretty sure Margerry Tyrell HAS been prepared by her grandmother, father, or a tutor in how to be an administrator. At least it appears she has had some training based on her behavior. As well, Catelyn was clearly prepared on some level to be an administrator. Again, probably because her father had no male heir for some time when she was a child, but still, she was treated as an heir for a time.) If you want your daughter to be Queen, you should probably do something to prepare her to be Queen besides just get her married. But Tywin truly doesn't seem to understand the basics of how to raise children. He just treats everyone, including his own children as pawns. When you treat humans this way, it tends to have poor results.

I don't know to what extent we can blame Tywin for how Cersei turned out. As I've said before, I think there's something rotten in Cersei which can't be pinned on Tywin's parenting. Exhibit A is her murder of Melara.

The other thing that makes me hesitate is that so far as I can recall we only have Cersei's word that Tywin didn't train her up, but from everything else we see, Cersei is also someone who fundamentally resents being told what to do, refuses to take on board advice unless it accords with her preconceived prejudices, and wouldn't know a learning experience if it slapped her in the face. Cersei was taken to court with Tywin when she was twelve, while Jaime was squiring at Crakehall. Wasn't that in some way to prepare her for the realities of life at court? Then at the age of fifteen, Jaime joins the Kingsguard and remains in King's Landing while she goes back to Casterly Rock with Tywin. Didn't she arguably benefit more from Tywin's oversight and presence during her adolescence than his favourite Jaime, who spent most of it away from Tywin, or the despised Tyrion?

I do have to wonder to what extent Cersei simply refused to acknowledge whatever lessons Tywin tried to teach her, or resented that the lessons she was being taught were to prepare her for life as a lady whereas what she wanted was lessons in how to be a lord, notwithstanding the actual realities of her life. Or perhaps that Tywin tried to teach her, realised that she was fundamentally not worth teaching, and gave up.

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Nah

What qualities does Jaime posses Cersei could not find in another dude?

 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

She was screaming "what are you doing" to Jaime when he was saving Bran initially and had only complained about what Jaime did when she found out Bran will survive.

Because she was shocked, she never told him to kill him and she herself stated there were other ways of silence him.

 

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Jaime is fundamentally and instinctually a good and decent

Disagree completely, Jaime is fundamentally and instinctually a self absorbed prick who has a few people he cares about.

Jaime never learnt how to be bad, he just got worst.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

If this was Tywin's goal, then he failed spectacularly. He raised 3 children who are majorly messed up, all have daddy issues, and who's goals either don't align or are going to directly destroy House Lannister's prestige, influence, and reputation. Tyrion wants to kill everyone in his family and has already become a kinslayer. Cersei thinks she is being Tywin while doing truly horrible things that will make everyone hate house Lannister even more than they already do. And Jaime, I guess the one doing the least to destroy house Lannister, refused to be Tywin's heir and also actively has thoughts that if followed through would destroy the things Tywin compared about most (Jaime constantly thinks about saying, "Hey Tommen and Myrcella are my children." Dont' know that he would ever follow through with it, but he thinks about it all the time). 

See, I don't think that was Tywin's main goal though. That is what he said was his main goal while really wanting power for himself. If he wanted to make House Lannister the most influential, prestigious house forever, than...he should have done a hell of a lot better job at raising/preparing his children for leadership.

I really fail to see how the fact that Tywin wasn't able to instill his goals into his children (definitely not due to lack of trying, as we know from all the Lannister POVs) means that they weren't Tywin's goals at all.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh, and I agree he was okay with being House #2 to Baratheon. However, I think he always planned a hostile takeover once Robert died. He was far too prepared to invade the Riverlands. Far too prepared. 

He planned take over of what? Tywin is fighting to keep the status quo in the Wot5k.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think Tywin saying his goal is only about "House Lannister" is kind of like when Tyrion says what he wants to do in King's Landing is "justice". Tyrion concerns himself little with actual justice, in the same way that Tywin didn't really do much to improve House Lannister's standing long term, and instead has set the house up for possible destruction. Tywin reminds me of a long list of tyrants in history who's children immediately lost power, because their power almost completely relied upon themselves being in power (because they trusted no one else with administration except themselves). 

I seriously don't understand the logic of your arguments. You are essentially claiming that if Tywin failed at something, it means that was never something he wanted in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, frenin said:

What qualities does Jaime posses Cersei could not find in another dude?

Him being her twin.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because she was shocked, she never told him to kill him and she herself stated there were other ways of silence him.

Ah, of course.

Seriously, given the based on our previous conversations we definitely read different books, not sure there is a point of arguing with one another.

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1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Tywin tried to teach her, realised that she was fundamentally not worth teaching, and gave up.

Well, you summed it up better than me. Yes, this is why Cersei is the way she is. This. Like, you understand - That is the shittiest thing I can ever, ever imagine a parent doing to a child. It's so unbelievably shitty it blows my mind you don't realize it's shitty. Trust me, I am a teacher, and I have had a few students who know their parents don't like them/don't believe in them. Those kids don't all have the same reaction to that action from their parents, but since I teach writing quite often, it comes through in their diaries. Like, jesus christ. She is his daughter. She isn't a tool you can turn in if it is broken. Good god man. Like, I have said before, including here, that Cersei is evil. But you are arguing that Cersei wasn't effected by Tywin, then made a sentence that is EXACTLY how you make an evil child as a shitty parent. Step 1 : Be evil yourself (cause Tywin is evil), Step 2 : Act like your child is useless or a nuisance, and "give up" on them as a potential heir because of how they were "fundamentally not worth teaching". Whew. You did a better job than me arguing that Tywin is the reason Cersei is fucked up. 

Also, be glad for teachers like me if you are a parent. I promise you I will NEVER have that attitude with a student. 

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

I really fail to see how the fact that Tywin wasn't able to instill his goals into his children (definitely not due to lack of trying, as we know from all the Lannister POVs) means that they weren't Tywin's goals at all.

If someone has a goal to make a family business that goes on for generations and generations, and then they 1. Don't give any of their other family members responsibilities (except I guess their brother), 2. Ignore what the other family members want. If they tell them they don't want to work at the business, just try to force them to work at the business, 3. Someone else wants to work at the business, but you don't let them work at the business, and 4. Tell one person you hate them all the time while kind of half-assedly letting them work at the business, but also then later fire them when the opportunity presents itself.....then your goal was not actually to run a family business. Your goal was to run a "you" business. You ignored the most important part of the family business...the family part. 

Tywin doesn't try. He fails spectacularly because he doesn't actually try ...except if he is in absolute charge and control. And he quickly, and I mean quickly, gives up on others if they don't do exactly what he tells them to do. He cares about Tywin's legacy, Tywin's idea of wht the Lannisters should be, and Tywin's power/control of the Lannister name/legacy. 

It's not just that he fails to get what he wants....he doesn't do any of the necessary things to succeed if he actually wanted that. The things he does do....would lead to the result that happened. 

Definitely not due to a lack of trying, lol. No, he doesn't try at all to instill those goals. He just says them, order people to do those things, and never makes any other attempts to do anything that isn't just ordering others around. That isn't trying to do something, that is just being a jackass controlling piece of shit. Let me try to reach my goals of getting my Masters degree by just yelling at professors to teach me better, ordering them to accept me into the school without any reason for them to accept me, and then when I fail to get a degree, be like : Welp, I tried. 

Technically you are correct, that would be "trying", but...in a more real way..it wouldn't. Because that is expressly not how you would ever reach that goal. It is however how you would reach a different goal (i.e. Tywin being in control of everything). 

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I'm not arguing that Tywin is a model parent. I'm not arguing that Tywin is a good guy.

But I do think Cersei is worse than Tywin, because Tywin appears to demonstrate at least some understanding of virtues (forgiveness, patience) that Cersei doesn't. And I don't believe that everything Cersei is can be pinned on Tywin, no matter how shitty his parenting was. Because at heart I think people have to take responsibility for their own actions and blaming it entirely on bad upbringings is a cop-out.

That's all I'm saying. Maybe we disagree.

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1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 Like, I have said before, including here, that Cersei is evil.

If you are going to argue that Cersei is evil, you have to also call Jaime and Tyrion (who has done just as bad things as Cersei) evil. I am really pissed off by the double standard that people apply. All three of the Lannister siblings have done bad things, all three have redeeming qualities, all three have excuses for their actions, but apparently only Cersei is the "evil" one while her brothers are "morally grey" or whatever. Most of Cersei's actions are motivated by a desire to protect her kids while Tyrion for instance doesn't even have that as an excuse, yet he is not "evil apparently. I am tired of people constantly excusing her brothers for similarly bad behaviour while throwing Cersei under the bus.

I am going to call out this double standard whenever i encounter it. Either all three of them are evil or none of them is evil.

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3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh, and I agree he was okay with being House #2 to Baratheon. However, I think he always planned a hostile takeover once Robert died. He was far too prepared to invade the Riverlands. Far too prepared.

Tywin had no reason to believe Robert would die imminently. He may have anticipated civil war on Robert's death, whether from Stannis or Renly or Balon, but I don't think his war preparations were necessarily quite as rapid as we sometimes assume.

Tyrion was arrested by Cat. Tywin's response was to send Gregor into the Riverlands to raid, in the hope of baiting Ned into a battle where he can capture him and exchange him for Tyrion. While he's waiting for that to bear fruit, he calls his banners just in case. We know that it takes at least a week for news of Gregor's raiding to reach the capital after Jaime's confrontation of Ned. Edmure, seeing the Lannister army massing at the Rock, calls his own banners in response. After Robert dies, Tywin advances out and defeats the Riverlords, while Robb calls his own banners. Robb manages to assemble his host (including the Freys) and march to Riverrun in about the time between Ned's arrest and execution.

Frustratingly we don't have a really clear timeline for these events, but we know it took at least six days from Jaime's attack on Ned to Ned's recovery, and by the time Ned sat the Iron Throne to hear news of Gregor's raiding on the Riverlands, Edmure had called his own banners at which point Tywin's army was still massing at the Golden Tooth (assuming the chapters are chronological, Tyrion had in fact already been released by this point, but presumably news of this hadn't got out, and then Robert's death changed the game).

What seems clear is that in a well-ordered kingdom, the banners can be called extremely quickly when necessary. Tywin started first, probably immediately on hearing the news of Tyrion's capture, but Robb and Edmure were also able to raise their own forces very rapidly when necessary. And Tywin didn't unleash his full strength until after Robert's death.

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8 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

If you are going to argue that Cersei is evil, you have to also call Jaime and Tyrion (who has done just as bad things as Cersei) evil. I am really pissed off by the double standard that people apply. All three of the Lannister siblings have done bad things, all three have redeeming qualities, all three have excuses for their actions, but apparently only Cersei is the "evil" one while her brothers are "morally grey" or whatever. Most of Cersei's actions are motivated by a desire to protect her kids while Tyrion for instance doesn't even have that as an excuse, yet he is not "evil apparently. I am tired of people constantly excusing her brothers for similarly bad behaviour while throwing Cersei under the bus.

I am going to call out this double standard whenever i encounter it. Either all three of them are evil or none of them is evil.

I don't think it's a double standard. And I'd be cautious about throwing around "evil" as a descriptor.

But I do think Cersei is the worst of the three siblings. Tyrion has done terrible things and shows signs of descending to Cersei's level. But he has at times shown hints of kindness and generosity and self-reflection, which Cersei never has. Jaime has also done bad things, but his worst act (pushing Bran out of a window) is basically Tuesday for Cersei, what with her slaughter of infants, torture of innocents, and sending friends off to be subjected to Qyburn's experiments. And Jaime is working his way towards being better, whereas Cersei isn't even trying.

And even if "protecting her kids" were sufficient justification for everything she does, which it isn't, it's surely inapplicable to many of her actions.

Can you please justify how Cersei's murder of Melara was motivated by a desire to protect her kids?

Can you explain how her shagging Jaime on her wedding day was motivated by a desire to protect her kids?

Can you explain how sending Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn's dungeon helps protect her kids?

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17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Can you please justify how Cersei's murder of Melara was motivated by a desire to protect her kids?

Again, we don't even know if she really did do it. For all we know, it might have really been an accident and Cersei might have tried to help her but in vain. Let's wait for book 6 which would surely clarify on that before we treat this as an indisputable fact, okay? 

 

17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Can you explain how her shagging Jaime on her wedding day was motivated by a desire to protect her kids?

That's not even an evil act and it was done before she even wed Robert. At first, she was planning to stay faithful to Robert and the thing with Jaime was done before she married Robert. I am sure that Robert himself has also shagged one or two women on their wedding day but it's not evil. But even if that weren't the case, I would just consider it a shitty thing to do but not actually evil.

 

17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Can you explain how sending Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn's dungeon helps protect her kids?

Because she was growing paranoid and she wanted Qyburn to build her an undead zombie who would protect her and Tommen from Tyrion and Tyrion's associates which she believed surrounded her and Qyburn needed test subjects for this. It still doesn't justify giving him test subjects and that's the worst thing Cersei has done but it's absolutely motivated because she was afraid of losing Tommen.

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And for the record, if someone thinks Cersei is evil, I am fine with that because she has done a lot of bad things. It's just that I am annoyed that oftentimes these same people who think Cersei is evil, don't think Tyrion and Jaime are evil and I have even seen cases where they also don't think that Tywin is evil.

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38 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Again, we don't even know if she really did do it. For all we know, it might have really been an accident and Cersei might have tried to help her but in vain. Let's wait for book 6 which would surely clarify on that before we treat this as an indisputable fact, okay?

I think the recollection made it about as clear as is necessary, especially with Maggy basically confirming that Cersei was going to kill Melara. It's not something I'm prepared to give Cersei the benefit of the doubt over.

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