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Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier


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2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

It will be very interesting to see how the statements of these hostages allign with the statements made by Yocheved Lifshitz, because that was a bit of a pie in the face moment for Israel.

I find them largely worthless, regardless of context. It's part of the PR battle, and honestly? People shouldn't support the emancipation of palestinians because Hamas treated the hostages fairly. There are far better reasons to do that, and we should care about how they treated the hostages because of the hostages, not Hamas.

It's actually sad that it matters so much, when it ideally shouldn't at all.

Edited by Daeron the Daring
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5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I find them largely worthless, regardless of context. It's part of the PR battle, and honestly? People shouldn't support the emancipation of palestinians because Hamas treated the hostages fairly. There are far better reasons to do that, and we should care about how they treated the hostages because of the hostages, not Hamas.

It's actually sad that it matters so much, when it ideally shouldn't at all.

I don't think there is anything to be gained by the Palestinian liberation side, because the fact that they were hostages in the first place so there is no real propaganda value in that. However, this does represent a very powerful propaganda tool for the Israeli side, because any further discomfort or violence inflicted upon the hostage is further confirmation of the inhumanity of Hamas and they can use that against Palestinians as a whole since it would be seen as further justification of Israel's offensive goal.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No. Tankies, who are far-left indeed, are not like this. They are conscious endorsers of the authoritarian left (communist) regimes because they perceive their methods righteous, be it foreign or domestic policy. 

I've not been familiar with the names mentioned before, but they are much more larping right-winger reactionaries, who present themselves (their opinion) as an alternative. The purpose of such voices is always to make people reactionary, and accepting of the foreign geopolitical actions of various states.

But anyway, the point I originally meant to express is that it's ridiculous to assume that the left's pro-Palestinian stance is antisemitc, and even when antisemitism is the reason for anti-Israel sentiment (on the left), it's not because of these guys.

The Grayzone is very much left wing. Left wing extremism is just as bad as it’s right wing variant. It doesn’t get as much coverage due to the fact that there are very few places where the far left actually holds power. 

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40 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

However, this does represent a very powerful propaganda tool for the Israeli side, because any further discomfort or violence inflicted upon the hostage is further confirmation of the inhumanity of Hamas and they can use that against Palestinians as a whole since it would be seen as further justification of Israel's offensive goal.

I agree, and in regards to that I said that it's a shame it does to such a lenghty extent, when it normally should not at all.

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On 11/23/2023 at 7:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

An Israeli man, a teacher, uses his social media to help other Israelis to see Palestinians as human beings.

How dare he? /s

Of course, gets arrested and sacked for it, and is now facing charges. 

 

Appalling, especially in the context of many now calling out the systematic dehumanisation of Palestinians by Israel for a long time. 
 

Also interesting how some who vigorously, breathlessly defend every single thing Israel does don’t seem to have anything to say to such posts. 

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8 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

The times of israel reports, exchange of israeli hostages as women and children for palestinian hostages "females and tennagers", fucking sigh

Were they not females and teenagers? Wonder why they were being held in the first place? Bet it wasn’t because they were kidnapped. 

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1 hour ago, Crixus said:

Also interesting how some who vigorously, breathlessly defend every single thing Israel does don’t seem to have anything to say to such posts. 

Been sick the last couple of days, myself.

But I've already posted critiques of the government, its treatment of the West Bank, and its attempts to crack down on free speech, so... more of the same critique from me. It's why I look forward to Likud crashing and burning with Netanyahu.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Were they not females and teenagers? Wonder why they were being held in the first place? Bet it wasn’t because they were kidnapped. 

It's an apartheid regime, they don't actually need reasons to arrest people. Palestinians can be arrested for any reason the IDF/the Israeli police feel like, including walking on certain streets that have been declared sterile, meaning that only Jews can walk on them. Beyond that, in a lot of the cases, they haven't even been charged with anything, Israel can hold them in indefinite detention for the smallest of infractions, which does in effect amount to being kidnapped. .

And the reason that it is notable is the fact that  Israeli hostages are "females and children" while Palestinians are "females and teenagers". In case you're unaware, teenagers are children, and framing it that way makes it seem like they are dangerous youths or terrorist in training or some shit like that. It's the same thing as how Israelis are killed vs Palestinians just die, it's using different language depending on which side of the conflict they are on to elicit specific perceptions of events.

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Quote

Allegations of abuse of children in detention

Israel has faced ongoing criticism for the treatment of minors in detention.
 

A July report by Save the Children broke down the abuse of Palestinian children imprisoned by Israeli officers, based on a sample of 228 children detained in the last three years.
 

It revealed 43 per cent of children suffered injuries during arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones, while over 90 per cent reported being blindfolded during their arrest.
 

Once imprisoned, 69 per cent reported being strip-searched during interrogation, with some reporting sexual violence or abuse, and 60 per cent experienced solitary confinement varying from 24 hours to 48 days.

[…]
 

In a 2022 submission to the United Nations, Human Rights Watch also found that Israeli security forces routinely interrogate children without a guardian, use unnecessary force during arrest and physically abuse children in custody.
 

Defence for Children International-Palestine estimates that an average of 500-700 children are detained by Israeli forces every year.

The nasty little terrorists had what was coming to them obviously. /s

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/who-are-the-jailed-palestinian-women-and-children-set-to-be-released-by-israel/xhf0vy48i

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24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Probably because that is exactly what they are.

If true, then why aren't they all charged with such? Why are some held in indefinite administrative detention without a trial?

Israel holds over 1,200 detainees without charge. That's the most in 3 decades, a rights group says | AP News

Quote

Israel is holding over 1,200 detainees — nearly all of them Palestinians — without charge or trial, the highest number in over three decades, an Israeli human rights group said Tuesday.

The detainees, 99% of whom are Palestinians, are held under Israel’s policy of “administrative detention,” without trial and under allegations that Israeli authorities keep secret.

If 'dangerous youths or terrorists in training' is 'exactly what they are', why haven't they been tried or even charged with anything? There should be evidence of such activities, no?

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yet this article describes them as ‘women and children’ as if they are just poor innocent bystanders and not terrorists. So this article is correct and the other one is wrong? 

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6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Were they not females and teenagers? Wonder why they were being held in the first place? Bet it wasn’t because they were kidnapped. 

Ofc you dont understand the difference in framing and language, im not surprised at all, you do you.

Israelis are women and children, palestinians are females and teenagers. 

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40 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Ofc you dont understand the difference in framing and language, im not surprised at all, you do you.

Israelis are women and children, palestinians are females and teenagers. 

Of course I understand it, I also understand when other news agencies try to frame teenage terrorists as 'children'. What age were these 'children'?

Also the idea there is some sort of moral equivalence between terrorists that Israel is releasing and actual children that Hamas kidnapped is abhorrent and that you seem to be trying to even make some sort of moral argument here is pretty grim.

Edited by Heartofice
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46 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Ofc you dont understand the difference in framing and language, im not surprised at all, you do you.

Israelis are women and children, palestinians are females and teenagers. 

You do realize all the kids released by Hamas are under the age of ten with most being little kids while the Palestinians being released are teenagers who Israel believes to have committed crimes, right? So the framing isn't inaccurate. 

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5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Yet this article describes them as ‘women and children’ as if they are just poor innocent bystanders and not terrorists.

Do you think that all Palestinians in Israeli prisons are actual terrorists, or do you think any Palestinian (regardless of their age) opposing Israel should be considered a terrorist?

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

You do realize all the kids released by Hamas are under the age of ten with most being little kids while the Palestinians being released are teenagers who Israel believes to have committed crimes, right? So the framing isn't inaccurate. 

did they charge does kids with crimes? what crimes? doesnt israel have thousands of of kids and people in jail with out charge? without trial? the teenagers are kids too you know

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2 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

did they charge does kids with crimes? what crimes? doesnt israel have thousands of of kids and people in jail with out charge? without trial? the teenagers are kids too you know

I can't speak to the specifics of each person's case, but there is nothing wrong with calling a 4 year old a child and a 16 year  old a teenager. Complaining about it just highlights how slanted views are. 

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