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Least Favorite Characters/Most Hated Characters


Lord of Raventree Hall
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5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This is an underrated point that I've often thought about. What if Rhaegar would have been a terrible King. I think it is at least possible. I guess, where I see the realm being saved is he just has a very competent hand (I guess maybe Jon Cannington would be his choice) and then he just can do his own thing, lol. But as a King, if he just is melancholy all the time, randomly does things without telling anyone why, disappears randomly, and constantly tries to follow prophecies, he would probably be a rather poor King. Maybe not as bad as Aerys, but Robert-level seems possible. 

At least he wouldn't be evil, that's Rhaegar's one saving grace. All of the living POV characters who knew Rhaegar, said he was a kind person.

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Least Favorite POV Chapters:

A Game of Thrones:  Tyrion.  I think the way he thinks is extremely interesting, and being a completely dislikable character doesn't decrease my enjoyment of his chapters (I hate Cersei but love her chapters).  I just think a lot of his story is overly contrived: so much of his story in the Vale and in the battle at the Green Fork is based on luck.

A Clash of Kings:  I agree with a previous poster that Davos III might be my least favorite chapter in the entire series, but I really like his first two chapters.  The first chapters for Jon, Bran, and Dany start out a little slow, but they pick up later.

A Storm of Swords:  Daenerys.  Dany took over three cities in a few short chapters, and it felt like George Martin wasn't invested in it.  He just needed to Dany to become really powerful, really quickly, and he just made it happen.

A Feast for Crows:  Until I know the payoff for Arya's Faceless Man arc, Arya's subplot in Braavos is the subplot I'm least interested (the might change if the books ever finish).  I feel like Sansa's chapters were stretched out to three chapters just because George Martin wanted her to have at least three chapters, but her chapters could have been condensed.  I'm on the fence about the Greyjoy/Dornish chapters.  I think they are well-written, but I don't think Arianne's Myrcella-crowning plot is going anywhere: it was just a long, convoluted way to introduce to us that the Martells are players in the game.  Likewise, the book started with Euron as the king and ended it with him confirmed as king: these chapters were just a way to introduce Euron as a newly introduced threat.

A Dance with Dragons:  Still Arya, for reasons stated above, and also Tyrion.  Like with Dorne and the Greyjoys in the previous book, Tyrion's chapters in the first half of the book were overly numerous to introduce the new Aegon subplot, and it seemed like he had an excessive number of chapters in the second half of the book as well without much happening.

Most Hated Characters:

There are a lot of characters I hate, but I enjoy their presence in the story (Cersei, for example).  I won't talk about them.  But characters I hate that can disappear instantly and I don't think the story will be lacking from their absence (or for dead characters who already have):

Drogo.  He might not otherwise stand out from all the other mass-murdering, mass-raping, mass-enslaving villains in the story, but the fact that so many fans like him and even think of him as one of the good guys makes him stand out as extra reprehensible.

Any of the Slave Masters in Astapor involved in the Unsullied program.  George Martin usually makes an effort to make the villains complex, but as written, these villains come across as pure monsters.

Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers.  See above.  With the exception of Qyburn (originally one of the Bloody Mummers): I despise him, but he makes a great villain.

Daario Naharis.  On first read, I thought he was the most insipidly annoying characters of all time, the only character whose presence made the story actually worse.  Now I appreciate his role in his story to demonstrate how Dany's judgment is so unbelievably horrible for falling for this monster, so he doesn't annoy me quite as much.  Still, the story would not be lacking if TWOW starts out with Dany learning that the Yunkai slavers already killed him off-page.

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1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Daario Naharis.  On first read, I thought he was the most insipidly annoying characters of all time, the only character whose presence made the story actually worse.  Now I appreciate his role in his story to demonstrate how Dany's judgment is so unbelievably horrible for falling for this monster, so he doesn't annoy me quite as much.  Still, the story would not be lacking if TWOW starts out with Dany learning that the Yunkai slavers already killed him off-page.

I have never understood the hate for Daario. Now granted, I don't..like him persay. But I also don't hate him. He is meant to represent a typical sellsword I guess. Many of the things he says are certainly monstrous, but....no worse than many other characters in similar positions honestly. As to Dany having horrible judgement - Eh. 1. She is 13 or 14. When I was 13 or 14, I had no judgement. Literally - That person is attractive so I like them (and that was about it). 2. She thinks Daario is a hottie, and keeps him at a distant (she never actually acts on like the desire to marry him or something like that). So what? If she was a male character, this would be a complete non-issue. Ygritte...is not that different from Daario, and no one is making a long speech about how bad Jon's choices are when it comes to her. Tyrion literally keeps a concubine...and rarely are we told how bad his judgement is for this (except by Tywin I guess, lol). Theon sleeps with a series of unsuitable matches for the heir to the Iron Islands. Again, no one is going on about how Kyra is some "horrible choice" for Theon to be with. 3. Daario is actually seemingly quite loyal to Daenerys. As bad of a person as he may be, in how he treats Daenerys, he is actually...not that bad. He doesn't appear to cheat on her, he essentially does whatever he asks of her, and he clearly likes her beyond just sex (he gets jealous in the scene before she gets married). Like....honestly, he is unsuitable for a Queen to marry..but as a bedwarmer, why not? Why does she need to even justify all this, a male leader wouldn't have to. 

Also, but seriously : Daenerys's closest relationships in these books so far (both romantic and non-romantic) are Viserys (abusive and controlling of her), Khal Drogo (who she was sold to, and is ...forceful toward her, and is of course...as you mentioned, a monster), Jorah Mormont (a rather blunt and harsh man, who is basically just a polite monster. He kind of urges Daenerys to do similar things to what Daario does...he is just less flamboyant and more taciturn when he suggests them), Missandei (just a normal nice girl, lol. Yay Missandei), and maybe Barristan toward the end (Barristan is certainly no monster, but their relationship is more of Queen to servant, while as the others I listed do act more like friends even if they serve her). Like what do you expect? Where exactly was she supposed to learn healthy dating standards? Where is she supposed to learn how normal people talk/act, when she has been surrounded by violence for most of her life? lol. Do you know what is distinctly different about Daario from many of those listed? Daenerys chose him. Daenerys is in control of their romance. And Daenerys can end their romance if she wants. I see good reason for her to want someone where she gets to choose, and where she has the power (because that power has often been taken from her, or people have ignored her wishes and tried to have her when she didn't want them). Unlike literally any other man in the book, Daario also appears to actually like her and not just her crown. Like, my dude, there are good reasons for her to like him, even if he is a flamboyant monster. 

Also, on a personal note, the worst person I ever dated, was also one of the hottest. I don't now bro, a lot of people like bad boys/bad girls. If you don't that's cool, but people liking them, especially if they are smart about it...isn't really that bad of a thing. I am fully aware I like bad girls, and so I made better decisions as I got older, but still....I don't consider my attraction to bad girls as some character flaw in myself. They are hot. Why do I need to pretend they are not? 

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall
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4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I have never understood the hate for Daario. Now granted, I don't..like him persay. But I also don't hate him. He is meant to represent a typical sellsword I guess. Many of the things he says are certainly monstrous, but....no worse than many other characters in similar positions honestly.

It was my first read of Daario when he drove me crazy, and my dislike for him had nothing to Dany liking him.  I just found everything about him annoying.  Perhaps when a really terrible character is portrayed as not terrible through the POV, they irritate me more than if the POV sees them as what they are.  For example, Big Walder and Little Walder are horrendous bullies in ACOK but Bran sees them as such, and I would have found them far more annoying if we saw their behavior while Bran was being chummy with them and seeing nothing wrong with them.  (In this context, by "annoying", I mean decreasing my pleasure in reading the story.)

Daario also made my list because he is a fairly prominent character, while Harma Dogshead (who is one of my most hated characters too) did not get a mention because she has maybe a couple lines in the entire series.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

She is 13 or 14. When I was 13 or 14, I had no judgement. Literally - That person is attractive so I like them (and that was about it). 2. She thinks Daario is a hottie, and keeps him at a distant (she never actually acts on like the desire to marry him or something like that). So what? If she was a male character, this would be a complete non-issue.

Dany is around 16 when she starts sleeping with him.  I am fully aware that this is not a ripe old age of wisdom and good judgment, and I agree with you that in real life her young age would make some of her poor choices more understandable.  In the context of these books where 16 is considered an adult and she's a ruling queen, Robb is a ruling king, and Jon is lord commander all at age 16, applying real-life approaches is harder when reading these chapters.

And you're right... she did keep Darrio at a distance and I applaud her for that, until she didn't.  It was the same chapter that she agreed to marry Hizdhar that she started sleeping with him.  I don't fault her for "cheating" on Hizdhar under the circumstance of their betrothal, but flaunting her affair publicly was really stupid considering the whole marriage was about appearances.  For in-world characters, you are right that if she was a male, it would not be an issue.  For me as a reader, if a male character did the same thing, it would be.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ygritte...is not that different from Daario, and no one is making a long speech about how bad Jon's choices are when it comes to her.

I actually do dislike Ygritte, but she is not a sadist who kills for pleasure like Daario; they are a lot different.  And Jon reluctantly (at first) sleeping with Ygritte to keep his cover and then escaping that relationship as soon as he could is not comparable to anything about Dany and Daario's relationship.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tyrion literally keeps a concubine...and rarely are we told how bad his judgement is for this (except by Tywin I guess, lol). Theon sleeps with a series of unsuitable matches for the heir to the Iron Islands. Again, no one is going on about how Kyra is some "horrible choice" for Theon to be with.

Not sure if you're talking about book readers or characters in the story?  For characters within the story, Shae is a "secret" so this isn't a good example of what people would be publicly criticizing (though I think Tyrion's "womanizing" traits is one of many reasons why the public thinks of him as a "monster").  When Theon was at Winterfell, no one was treating him or thinking of him as an heir to the Iron Islands.  Back home, in the messed up Ironborn culture, a suitable "salt wife" is anyone Theon wants to bed, as long he doesn't make them his "rock wife".  If we're talking about sexist double-standards (and they obviously do exist in Westeros), the Iron Islands is not a great example since Asha seems quite promiscuous as well and I don't think that has impacted her public perception negatively.

If you are talking about readers, or specifically me: I don't like Tyrion or pre-Reek Theon, and the way they both treat women is high on my list for why I dislike them.  But their bad judgment on who they sleep with is not because their partner is a bad person.  I don't like Shae, but she's no mass murderer either.  Dany's bad judgment for Daario is because he's a bad person.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Daario is actually seemingly quite loyal to Daenerys. As bad of a person as he may be, in how he treats Daenerys, he is actually...not that bad. He doesn't appear to cheat on her, he essentially does whatever he asks of her, and he clearly likes her beyond just sex (he gets jealous in the scene before she gets married).

We're not inside Daario's head, so neither of know for sure what Daario really thinks, but it definitely does not appear to me that he cares about Dany for anything other than sex.  He decapitated his two partners right when he met Dany and claimed it was for love... but did he fall in love with her from that first meeting?  No.  Does he believe in her just motives?  No.  Did he think she was hot, and also get a thrill out of killing two men while he was at it?  Absolutely.  A violent sadist getting jealous is not proof of love.  Abusive non-loving boyfriends get jealous over their girlfriend talking to other men all the time.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Daenerys's closest relationships in these books so far (both romantic and non-romantic) are Viserys (abusive and controlling of her), Khal Drogo (who she was sold to, and is ...forceful toward her, and is of course...as you mentioned, a monster), Jorah Mormont (a rather blunt and harsh man, who is basically just a polite monster. He kind of urges Daenerys to do similar things to what Daario does...he is just less flamboyant and more taciturn when he suggests them), Missandei (just a normal nice girl, lol. Yay Missandei), and maybe Barristan toward the end (Barristan is certainly no monster, but their relationship is more of Queen to servant, while as the others I listed do act more like friends even if they serve her). Like what do you expect? Where exactly was she supposed to learn healthy dating standards? Where is she supposed to learn how normal people talk/act, when she has been surrounded by violence for most of her life?

I agree with you.  I think Dany's story is tragic.  I don't think she can trust anyone in Meereen... but I don't think she can trust any of her sellswords either.  But why doesn't she make friendships with Irri or Jiqui?  Or her bloodriders or Grey Worm?  She chose to become close Daario while ignoring better options (I'm talking about friendship, not romance).

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Unlike literally any other man in the book, Daario also appears to actually like her and not just her crown.

Again, I can't prove otherwise since we simply don't know, but this is not the impression I have.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

a lot of people like bad boys/bad girls. If you don't that's cool, but people liking them, especially if they are smart about it...isn't really that bad of a thing.

There are levels of "bad".  Most bad boys don't gloat about their joy in killing countless men (and bedding a thousand women), even in Dany's world.

Dany's story in ADWD was about her internal battle of Mhysa vs Mother of Dragons.  She resisted Daario when she was still trying for peace.  She openly pursued Daario the same time she made a sharp turn in her character.  I definitely think her relationship with Daario is symbolic of much more.

Anyway, that's what I read into the story.  I am not George Martin and I don't know his intentions.  Just trying to say in a long rambling way why I used to simply despise Daario (unrelated to Dany's liking of him), and now I appreciate him for what I (perhaps mistakenly) perceive is his symbolic purpose... but he still annoys me.

  

47 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Robb marries a woman he sleeps with (which I would argue is actually MORE foolish than just sleeping with her) and Jon sleeps with Ygritte...all about the same age. So, all three of our 16 year old characters do the same thing. In fact, I believe Lyanna was 16 when she ran off with Rhaegar. I think it implies pretty heavily that 16 year olds...still make bad decisions when it comes to romance in this world, lol. Also, something with Ashara Dayne and Eddard? Around the same age. Jon is Lord Commander, who just recently broke his vows with Ygritte. Robb is a King, who breaks a marriage pack which ends up with his death because he was horny (and can't dishonor so marries her). You aren't really compelling me with those examples. 

@Lord of Raventree Hall, I'm just editing my previous response and adding this here... because this is off-topic and I don't want to turn this thread into something else.

My criticism of Dany's bad judgement isn't that she slept with "someone"... but that she slept with Daario, and Daario is far worse than Jeyne or Ygritte.

Robb marrying Jeyne: bad judgement for sure.  But he married her for honor, not for lust, and I love Robb for that.  Sleeping with her was bad judgment too... but I blame his bad judgement not on him being 16 years old, but being injured, probably on the milk of the poppy, and hysterical about his two brothers supposedly being dead.

Jon wasn't lord commander when he slept with Ygritte, but "breaking his vow" is complicated... since he was keeping his vow to Qhorin to "do anything necessary", and the first time he slept with Ygritte it was essentially a matter of keeping his cover.  He seemed to enjoy it afterwards (while also being conflicted), but this was more than a horny 16-year-old making bad choices.

We don't know the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna yet, but you and I are probably aligned on what we think probably happened, and I agree that Lyanna likely showed bad judgment in choosing Rhaegar (but not as epically bad judgment as Rhaegar made in choosing Lyanna).  But again, my criticism of Dany choosing Daario isn't "how dare she have sex", but "Daario is a monster".

I sincerely doubt that Ned and Ashara happened.  Brandon and Ashara, far more likely.  But even if Ned and Ashara did have sex, there are no additional circumstances about the two of them getting together that would demonstrate bad judgment.

Edited by StarkTullies
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6 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Dany is around 16 when she starts sleeping with him.  I am fully aware that this is not a ripe old age of wisdom and good judgment, and I agree with you that in real life her young age would make some of her poor choices more understandable.  In the context of these books where 16 is considered an adult and she's a ruling queen, Robb is a ruling king, and Jon is lord commander all at age 16, applying real-life approaches is harder when reading these chapters.

Robb marries a woman he sleeps with (which I would argue is actually MORE foolish than just sleeping with her) and Jon sleeps with Ygritte...all about the same age. So, all three of our 16 year old characters do the same thing. In fact, I believe Lyanna was 16 when she ran off with Rhaegar. I think it implies pretty heavily that 16 year olds...still make bad decisions when it comes to romance in this world, lol. Also, something with Ashara Dayne and Eddard? Around the same age. Jon is Lord Commander, who just recently broke his vows with Ygritte. Robb is a King, who breaks a marriage pack which ends up with his death because he was horny (and can't dishonor so marries her). You aren't really compelling me with those examples. 

13 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

We're not inside Daario's head, so neither of know for sure what Daario really thinks, but it definitely does not appear to me that he cares about Dany for anything other than sex.  He decapitated his two partners right when he met Dany and claimed it was for love... but did he fall in love with her from that first meeting?  No.  Does he believe in her just motives?  No.  Did he think she was hot, and also get a thrill out of killing two men while he was at it?  Absolutely.  A violent sadist getting jealous is not proof of love.  Abusive non-loving boyfriends get jealous over their girlfriend talking to other men all the time.

HIs jealousy isn't all that controlling. He seems upset but he never tells her not to marry Hizdahr. His jealousy sounds like normal jealousy given the context, not something controlling at all. In fact, again, Daenerys is the one with the control, not Daario. She very obviously has all the power (which she doesn't abuse, but she does). By the way, I agree, Daario just lusted at first, but that changes over time. Most (all I'd say) relationships start with lust not love. If you think you are in love, that's probably just lust confusing you, lol (Example : Barristan talks about "loving" Ashara Dayne. Barristan barely knew Ashara, he wasn't in love with her, he lusted for her). Honestly though, Daario has shown ZERO signs of abuse so far, so the abusive boyfriend comment makes no sense. 

19 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

There are levels of "bad".  Most bad boys don't gloat about their joy in killing countless men (and bedding a thousand women), even in Dany's world.

Dany's story in ADWD was about her internal battle of Mhysa vs Mother of Dragons.  She resisted Daario when she was still trying for peace.  She openly pursued Daario the same time she made a sharp turn in her character.  I definitely think her relationship with Daario is symbolic of much more.

Anyway, that's what I read into the story.  I am not George Martin and I don't know his intentions.  Just trying to say in a long rambling way why I used to simply despise Daario (unrelated to Dany's liking of him), and now I appreciate him for what I (perhaps mistakenly) perceive is his symbolic purpose... but he still annoys me.

I strongly disagree with this take. Although I agree that Dany's story is the Mhysa vs. Mother of Dragons thing, I don't think Daario is a major part of that. Granted, perhaps Dany pursues him as a way to ....undermine her potential marriage...but ultimately, she was just horny, ..and that's it. Love interests CAN represent something in a story, but...also, they can just be love interests. I think Dany just likes Daario. That's it. Also, the bad boys thing : Yeah, I agree, but as you said before, Dany's morality is obviously in a different place than ours (and actually a lot of people's morality in Westeros are in different places). I think Daario is more flippant about death, but Quentyn Martell...killed people while fighting in a sellsword company. Most of our male characters who fight in battles have killed a lot of people. Characters like Tyrion have ordered countless deaths as well. Dany exists in that world, and we can't take her out of it. What, she is going to think some guy who just acts tough and has never killed anyone is a bad boy? Hell no, lol. Her husband was literally one of the greatest killers of Essos...like in order for someone to be a bad boy from Daenerys's perspective, they essentially HAVE to have done something horrible, because even good people murder people from her perspective. 

I saw this somewhere in your take, but forgot to quote it, anyways, also...Dany is hated, like straight up hated by her enemies. I honestly don't think sleeping with Daario actually changed her public perception all that much. LIke, yeah, they didn't like it.....but it didn't really change that much about what was happening. She still married Hizdahr, the peace treaty was still signed, the Yunkai still hated her, the Freedmen still love her....like what did it actually change. You said Asha's public perception wasn't changed, well I'd argue...neither was Daenerys's. Quentyn was even still pursuing riding a dragon to be another head of the dragon. Like, it literally...changed nothing. The reason Daenerys can OPENLY sleep with Daario is becasue....she is an absolute powerful queen with an army that is (from what I've seen) absolutely loyal to her. She is trying to rule a city full of Great Masters that already hate her and won't change their mind based on her sleeping with someone. She is Robert Baratheon, and much like Robert, she can kind of sleep with whoever the fuck she pleases. In universe, it actually made no difference to her power one iota. 

 

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