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Israel - Hamas War XII


kissdbyfire
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11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Someone has reportedly set themselves on fire outside of the Israeli consulate in the USA, supposedly in protest, according to Reuters.

Protester self-immolates outside Israeli consulate in Atlanta | Reuters

The Israeli Consul-General to the USA reportedly said regarding the incident:

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“It is tragic to see the hate and incitement toward Israel expressed in such a horrific way.”

 

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19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

A disturbing, but IMHO important, article from Gaby Hinsliff (warning, that parts of it are distressing).

This is mostly in response to Owen Jones’ video of him responding to footage of the Hamas attack. Seems to have caused a stir even within the Guardian 

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43 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

This is mostly in response to Owen Jones’ video of him responding to footage of the Hamas attack. Seems to have caused a stir even within the Guardian 

Jones is a piece of work.

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12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

work

Not quite the word I’d use.

Either way I think it ties back to the ‘just asking questions’ and one way scepticism that was discussed earlier, especially in regards to someone like Chomsky.
 

Someone like Jones trying  to debate just how many babies were killed or pouring doubt on rape just isn’t a good look and misses the wood for the trees.

Edited by Heartofice
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I watched Owen Jones’s video and Michael Walker’s as well; they went to the viewing of the Israeli government’s video together. I have to say I am not surprised by the reactions to these from many people, especially on the cesspool formerly known as Twitter. What I find odd is how people who are perfectly fine w/ this Israeli government doing whatever they want no matter how atrocious bending over backwards to paint anyone calling out the atrocities as monsters, basically. There may be some projection going on there. Because regardless of whether you love or hate Jones or Walker, both make it very clear that the video is horrific. Jones says there were times he had to look away from the screen b/c the atrocities were unimaginable. He also doesn’t say that claim A or B made by Israel is false or a lie or anything like that. He goes through what was shown and mentions claims that were made and not shown, while taking care to, repeatedly, say that just because it wasn’t shown doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 
And at the end he asks why is it that some people act as if we’re only allowed to feel compassion and empathy w/ one side. A very good question IMO. 

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24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because regardless of whether you love or hate Jones or Walker, both make it very clear that the video is horrific.

This is a pretty common safeguard used to protect from criticism. Jones does it on purpose. I'm sure he does find it horrific but his main intent when watching that video was to find the holes and raise his eyebrows at some of the claims. 

The problem with that is, what is he hoping to achieve by doing that? Is there a world where the Oct 7 attacks by Hamas were not horrible and brutal slaughters of innocent civilians? No there isn't, the attacks happened, and only the most crazy conspiracist would suggest they didn't (they exist). 

So it doesn't matter if the attacks were 5% less horrific than they are being claimed to be, or if some of the claims about them didn't actually occur. They are still terrible.

Edited by Heartofice
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The IDF is sneering at the very idea of civilian safety, and those who call attention to their non-stop crimes against humanity.  As was chanted at the USA armed forces and those who commanded them in the Vietnam era:  "The whole world is watching!"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/02/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza-palestine/#link-AW5X74RF6FEBNGPAO2CIB3SBTI

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The U.N. humanitarian affairs agency criticized an “evacuation zone map” that was issued by the Israeli military dividing Gaza into many small, numbered zones.

The Israeli military demanded evacuations in parts of north and south Gaza on Saturday, after telling residents to be on the lookout for instructions when their numbered zones were ordered to evacuate. Some of the zones appeared to bisect roads or neighborhoods. Israel first shared the online map in Arabic on Friday, saying that this was “in preparation for the next stage of the war” and that it would allow residents to evacuate from specific places.

The U.N. agency OCHA said in an update Friday that the map did “not specify where people should evacuate to” and that it was “unclear how those residing in Gaza would access the map without electricity” and given recurrent internet blackouts.

On Saturday, the Arabic-language spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, Avichay Adraee, posted satellite photos on social media of maps instructing people in a swath of southern Gaza, including zones in Khan Younis, to head farther south to Rafah, which borders Egypt. But Rafah has not been spared from attacks after the pause in fighting between Israel and Hamas ended early Friday. OCHA said Friday that Israeli airstrikes reported in the Rafah area had killed more than 25 people.

The IDF maps shared Saturday also called on people in parts of northern Gaza, including in the Jabalya refugee camp and in Gaza City, to head to other parts of the area or city, with arrows indicating a general direction in which they should move “for your safety.”

Aid officials, including the heads of the United Nations and the World Health Organization, have repeatedly said that nowhere is safe in the besieged Palestinian enclave, and Gaza residents said Saturday that they did not know where to go for shelter after repeated displacements.

In some cases, only parts of the IDF’s smaller, numbered zones appear to be instructed to leave, and the map photos shared Saturday do not give a precise view of where the boundary for an evacuation zone would be, or which route should be taken to evacuate.

 

 

Edited by Zorral
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More crimes against humanity committed in Gaza.

Gazans mourn loss of their libraries: Cultural beacons and communal spaces

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/

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BEIRUT — Amid the bombed-out buildings and thousands of dead in Gaza City, there is another, often overlooked casualty: the embattled enclave’s shattered cultural institutions, particularly its few libraries.

Both the Gaza Municipal Library and the Rashad al-Shawa Cultural Center — which hosted a meeting between President Bill Clinton and Yasser Arafat 25 years ago — have been shelled into rubble during the nearly two months of war as Israel attempts to destroy the militant group Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

“The occupation planes targeted and turned the public library building into rubble and destroyed thousands of books, titles and documents recording the city’s history and development, as well as the destruction of the library’s language courses hall and other library facilities,” said a statement Monday from the local government, which also described the destruction of the Shawa center and the municipal printing press.

The municipal authorities called the strikes an attempt “to spread a state of ignorance in society.” It is unclear when the institutions were destroyed, as it has only been since the pause in fighting began on Nov. 24 that many parts of the city have become accessible again. ....

 

 

Destroying Gaza’s cultural heritage is a crime against humanity -- including the third most ancient Greek Orthodox Church.  They are also destroying historical sites and centers in the West Bank. The world condemned the extremist destruction of ancient historic and artistic sites by the Taliban and ISIS . . . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/01/israel-gaza-cultural-artifacts-library-archive/

Over the past several weeks, Israel’s assault on Gaza has unleashed all sorts of violence — and not just the obvious kind.

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As of this writing, the death toll from the current conflict has passed 15,000. We have seen the images of dead and injured, of people pulling victims from rubble. There has been much global outcry over Israel’s bombing of hospitals, schools and refugee camps.

But one of the less-talked-about aspects of Israel’s bombardment is the destruction of cultural heritage: documents, monuments and artifacts.

On Oct. 19, Israel airstrikes damaged part of the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Porphyrius. Four hundred people had been sheltering inside, and 18 Palestinian Christians were killed. Built in the 12th century, the church is thought to be the third-oldest in the world.

Memorials to prominent Palestinian figures have not been spared. On Oct. 27, the International Federation of Journalists condemned the bulldozing of the shrine in Jenin where Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed last year, most likely by an Israeli soldier.

On Nov. 14, video emerged of an Israeli bulldozer in the West Bank demolishing monuments to the longtime Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. ....

 

 

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Tracing the Deep Roots of Ireland’s Support for Palestinians
In a country with its own history of a seemingly intractable conflict, the majority of people in Ireland are sympathetic to Palestinian civilians, while also condemning the Hamas attacks of Oct. 7.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/world/europe/ireland-palestinians-support.html

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Under the light drizzle of a Tuesday morning last month, Ríonach Ní Néill and a group of friends set up a small platform in front of the United States Embassy in Dublin.

Then they took out a stack of papers. For the next 11 and a half hours, Ms. Ní Néill and others took turns reading out thousands of names — each one a person killed since Israel started bombarding Gaza in the war, according to a list released by the Gazan health authorities.

It was an attempt to convey the enormity of the loss of life, she said.

“I think the baseline really in Ireland is that human rights are valued, and what’s happening now is the destruction of universal human rights,” said Ms. Ní Néill, 52, an artist from Galway. “This is not something that can be ignored.”

In Ireland, support for Palestinian civilians runs deep, rooted in what many see as a shared history of British colonialism and the experience of a seemingly intractable and traumatic conflict, which in Ireland’s case came to a close with the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. ....

 

 

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Just so you know, according to my other go-to-forum for these kinds of current events debates woke-ism has turned you all into raving anti-Semites!

Granted, I myself am staying clear of all rallies and stuff specifically to avoid getting lumped together with the actual anti-Semites shouting indefensible positions attracted to these events and whom no organizer can prevent from showing up (if they were even willing to, that is)... and yet I find it still sad how the last five pages of that forum were entirely conservative folks ranting/gloating about how Greta Thunberg, John Oliver, Robert Habeck, Joe Biden, hbomberguy, AOC and whoever else all have now revealed themselves to be anti-Semites on twitter, of course never linking to these posts or even quoting what they said and I'm just... okay, whatever. All the people countering them by now are banned from the thread or have given up and so it's just one massive circle-jerk... I think the Al-Shifa-raid wasn't even mentioned, or anything else going on on the ground, given that the war has now being completely turned into a tool to foster group-thinking and ammunition against political opponents. Sigh... humans suck...

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I keep thinking all the aerial bombing must be near a point of diminishing returns and does little to nothing to defeat an enemy entrenched in tunnels.

Thats why I fear this clash is destined to be a protracted stalemate that is unsolveable through military measures.

Neither side will ever stop.

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Israeli settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, briefly explained
With the world focused on Gaza, Israeli settlers and soldiers are increasing attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank.

https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/12/2/23984104/west-bank-israel-palestine-settler-violence

 

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55 minutes ago, Toth said:

woke-ism has turned you all into raving anti-Semites!

They are getting the same jollies from this as do 'we' forever pointing how stupid They are.  It never changes how They keep going.  They and Their accusations won't change our pov either.

It's only actions that count -- and boy howdy do They take action. :crying:

These people were assholes before, They are now, and that doesn't change the facts of massive crimes against humanity, and yes, even war crimes, have been, are now, and are deliberately planned for the future.  So who cares about Their deliberately chosen assholery of gloating about something They don't even understand.

Anymore than we, citing one source and action after another, for decades now, committed against the Palestinians, changes no minds among Those who claim objection to these are anti-semitism, Their claims that we are changes no minds either.  So   :cheers:

Edited by Zorral
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There was a news segment on MSNBC [iirc] a couple weeks ago [tried to find the actual paper but my google fu is weak] Anyway, they had the author of it speaking to radicalization due to conflicts such as this and their assertion was that the ratio of those radicalized to civilian deaths is 10:1. 

Didn't dig further into how many of those radicalized would take up arms, mind, but if it's largely accurate this situation isn't going anywhere fast. 

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3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Tracing the Deep Roots of Ireland’s Support for Palestinians
In a country with its own history of a seemingly intractable conflict, the majority of people in Ireland are sympathetic to Palestinian civilians, while also condemning the Hamas attacks of Oct. 7.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/world/europe/ireland-palestinians-support.html

 

Gosh, a whole country of anti-Semites.

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25 minutes ago, JGP said:

There was a news segment on MSNBC [iirc] a couple weeks ago [tried to find the actual paper but my google fu is weak] Anyway, they had the author of it speaking to radicalization due to conflicts such as this and their assertion was that the ratio of those radicalized to civilian deaths is 10:1. 

Didn't dig further into how many of those radicalized would take up arms, mind, but if it's largely accurate this situation isn't going anywhere fast. 

Idk how you calculate that, but in general it sounds more or less true. However, in this instance it probably doesn't work that way because of the deep-seated hatred both ways, both among Israelis and Palestinians and those who want violence verse those that want peace. Each of the sides will just get more entrenched. The shift will come from the international community, not from within. 

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CNN has a pair of perspectives from the opposing sides. Hamas says:

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Saleh Al-Arouri, deputy head of the political bureau of Hamas, conveyed the group's official stance on negotiations and hostage-prisoner exchanges in an interview with Al Jazeera TV on Saturday. He said “there are no negotiations now” and there will be no more prisoner exchanges until there is a ceasefire in Gaza and “until the Zionist terrorist aggression is completely ended.”

The remaining hostages still being held captive by Hamas are soldiers and former soldiers, according to Al-Arouri, who added that “there will be no negotiations regarding them until the end of the aggression.”

Israel says:

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Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant blames Hamas for breaching the truce agreement with Israel, he said in a news conference Saturday. 

"Hamas explicitly violated the agreement we reached with the US, Egypt and Qatar," Gallant said. 

The truce between Israel and Hamas collapsed after Hamas promised to return the remaining 15 women and two children but did not follow through, Gallant said.

So basically, Hamas wants a ceasefire before further negotiations about hostages and Israel believes that Hamas broke the agreement regarding the previous ceasefire which means they have absolutely no reason to negotiate another ceasefire . It looks like there's going to have to be a lot more fighting before one or the other changes their mind.

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