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Why would Varys help the son but not the father?


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If Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son that means Varys supported the son but not the father. 

 

Varys is the reason Aerys left Kingslanding to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

 

The two ideas conflict with one another. 

 

It seems unlikely Varys was anti-Rhaegar but supports his real son. 

 

The most likely thing is that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. He's someone else's. 

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I don't know about that. Varys was a fan of Ned Stark's, but that didn't sway him when he had the opportunity to set Ned free. I'm not arguing that Faegon is legit, I just don't think that we know enough about Varys' motives to deduce much from his actions. We do know that he can be ruthless when it fits his plans. 

One thing that Faegon presented Varys that  his father (or not) couldn't is the clean slate.  All that Varys recites to expiring Kevan Lannister is true because Varys got his hands on the kid and made a point of raising him to be King.  It could be that Rhaegar was plan 'A', but when Elia started having kids Varys decided to check down to Aegon because he could mold him from birth. 

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1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

If Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son that means Varys supported the son but not the father. 

 

Varys is the reason Aerys left Kingslanding to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

 

The two ideas conflict with one another. 

 

It seems unlikely Varys was anti-Rhaegar but supports his real son. 

 

The most likely thing is that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. He's someone else's. 

Seems like you answered your own question. FAegon isn’t a Targaryen, he’s a Blackfyre (through his mom)

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2 hours ago, James Steller said:

Seems like you answered your own question. FAegon isn’t a Targaryen, he’s a Blackfyre (through his mom)

first and foremost, yes, some variation of this is likely the case. I personally like the idea of Saera Blackfyre - the female line.

 

4 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

If Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son that means Varys supported the son but not the father. 

 

Varys is the reason Aerys left Kingslanding to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

 

The two ideas conflict with one another. 

 

It seems unlikely Varys was anti-Rhaegar but supports his real son. 

 

The most likely thing is that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. He's someone else's. 

But... 

This is not a case of supporting the son and not the father, but a case of serving the rightful king over his likely conspiring son. 

Aerys II Targaryen was King, not Rhaegar Targaryen. Rhaegar may have been heir, and a better man to serve than his father, but duty to the king demands Varys serve Aerys, just as Duty to the King is why Ned tried to install Stannis as king, not Renly. 

Aerys outlived Rhaegar, so this duty to the king went on until his kings death, and that duty is passed onto the next in line for the throne, baby Aegon V. That is at least the pretense of Varys service to Aegon, if not the reality.

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2 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

Aerys II Targaryen was King, not Rhaegar Targaryen. Rhaegar may have been heir, and a better man to serve than his father, but duty to the king demands Varys serve Aerys, just as Duty to the King is why Ned tried to install Stannis as king, not Renly. 

I have some doubts about this. Varys told us (more than once, I think) his duty was to the realm. He was sad about killing Kevan, but he did it for the greater good. I think the reason Varys persuaded Aerys to go to the tournament was because he wanted all the lords to see how demented their king was.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Aebram said:

I have some doubts about this. Varys told us (more than once, I think) his duty was to the realm. He was sad about killing Kevan, but he did it for the greater good. I think the reason Varys persuaded Aerys to go to the tournament was because he wanted all the lords to see how demented their king was.

I'm not saying this isn't the case. This very well may have been the case. Though one might argue it might have been possible or at least easier to call an informal great council to legally unseat his father if Aerys were not to attended said tourney. And if the Realm is more important than the king, Varys would be more than capable of simply killing Aerys so the rightful heir takes his place. If Aegon is fake, the plan to put in a pretender likely predates the birth of Aegon.

But @Tradecraft's question was, why, assuming Aegon was legitimate ie "Genuinly Rheagar's son", would Varys support Aegon if he didn't support his father? And reasoned that the lack of the support of his father meant Aegon's identify was feigned. So if he is really his son, why support aegon when not Rheagar? In ostent, it is because Varys supported the king, as the king's spymaster. And he did his job faithfully. So, Why support Aegon and not Rheagar. Aegon is king. Rhaegar never was.

If asked by a Targ. loyalist who thinks Aegon is real, that is likely what Varys would claim. And if Varys was genuinely loyal to house Targaryen (a Eunuch and thief honored up to serve an emperor who called him lord), this is how his actions could be reasoned.

Edited by Club-foot cleft-lips
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8 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

If Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son that means Varys supported the son but not the father. 

 

Varys is the reason Aerys left Kingslanding to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

 

The two ideas conflict with one another. 

 

It seems unlikely Varys was anti-Rhaegar but supports his real son. 

 

The most likely thing is that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. He's someone else's. 

Rhaegar was not the favored son. Perhaps Varys saw a weakness in Rhaegar. Inconsistency. Fear of wielding authority. Lack of skills at politics. Lack of interest in learning economics. Prince Viserys would have grown into a different man if his childhood had been easier. He would be preferable to Rhaegar. 

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3 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

So, Why support Aegon and not Rheagar.

He did support Rhaegar; that was my point. Persuading Aerys to go to the tournament was intended to help raise support for Rhaegar. And it probably worked, but other circumstances intervened; fate took a different course.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aebram said:

He did support Rhaegar; that was my point. Persuading Aerys to go to the tournament was intended to help raise support for Rhaegar. And it probably worked, but other circumstances intervened; fate took a different course.

I understand your point. My point was that even if Varys didn't support Rhaegar, this is how his support for a legitimate Aegon can be explained.

I'm not arguing what Varys' actual motivations are. I'm arguing how one specific version of the situation, 'How Varys could support the son when not the father,' raised by the topic poster, can be explained.

How:

1: If Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son that means Varys supported the son but not the father. 

and

2: Varys is the reason Aerys left Kingslanding to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. (in context to the topic, to detriment of Rhaegar)

Even accepted at face value as presented and interpreted by the topic poster, do not necessarily contradict one another.

You are challenging the premises of the topic's argument. I am challenging the conclusion of the topic's argument. If you want to have the conversation that Varys actions sending Aerys to Harrenhal was to the favor of Rhaegar, that is a conversation you should raise with the topic poster or in a new topic post, but not to me.

 

Edited by Club-foot cleft-lips
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21 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

If Aegon is genuinely Rhaegar's son that means Varys supported the son but not the father. 

 

Varys is the reason Aerys left Kingslanding to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

 

The two ideas conflict with one another. 

 

It seems unlikely Varys was anti-Rhaegar but supports his real son. 

 

The most likely thing is that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. He's someone else's. 

I don't think we should interpret Varys' actions in terms of support, but opportunity. Whether fAegon is real or not is irrelevant. If he manages to seize the crown and keep it, he is Aegon VI Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and rightful heir to the throne, and anyone who says otherwise has his tongue out. If not, then he was just another pretender.

So as a baby, Aegon would be a clean slate to be raised however Varys/Illyrio see fit and believe whatever they want him to believe. Whether or not he proves to be malleable as an adult is another matter, but that problem exists not matter who they put on the throne.

So the key thing here is not to have the real Aegon or a fake one, but to create the conditions where people believe he is real. And in that light, there is a very distinct possibility that it wasn't Clegane who bashed the baby's face into unrecognition, but Varys.

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Rhaegar was pretty good at combat but he would make a bad king.  A guy who isn't interested in learning the job won't be good at it.  Varys is looking at it from the eyes of the common folk.  He wants somebody who will keep the order and give Westeros the rest it needs so people can live.  Rhaegar is more interested in his music.  Varys wasn't looking to start a revolution.  He just wants the kingdom to keep on being stable.  Aerys gave Westeros many years of stable governance.  We have to assume Varys had enough time to observe Rhaegar and think he's not the one.  The son being young can be trained and molded.  And we don't know if Varys saved the boy with plans to put him on the throne.  I don't think he did.  Varys was loyal to the Targaryens and he would try to save all of them if he could.  Prince Viserys became King Viserys on that day when Queen Rhaella gave him the crown. 

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11 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Aerys gave Westeros many years of stable governance. 

More like Tywin did. As soon as Aerys sacked Tywin the cracks began to show. I don't even like Tywin but it is clear he was covering for Aerys until he got fired.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

More like Tywin did. As soon as Aerys sacked Tywin the cracks began to show. I don't even like Tywin but it is clear he was covering for Aerys until he got fired.

Aerys administration was so stable, he destroyed his own dynasty. You don’t get a more stable type of leader than that, lol

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