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US Politics: Swindler's List


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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Huh? Republicans have been falsely claiming fraud is why they lost elections for a long time. Remember all the dead people that got JFK elected? It's been a talking point for them for ages. Trump is just louder and more crude about it than most. 

JFK? JFC. 

Is it not notable that it's been decades since that type of rabid paranoia made its way into the institutional mainstream of the Republican party? The John Birch society was going strong in the 1960s. So another way of framing my earlier comment is that Trump brought Bircher-level insanity back into the mainstream of the party, with respect to how elections were viewed. Even if it's not creation ex nihilo, it's still damn significant. I'm not sure why you think this is the hill to die on.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

JFK? JFC. 

Is it not notable that it's been decades since that type of rabid paranoia made its way into the institutional mainstream of the Republican party? The John Birch society was going strong in the 1960s. So another way of framing my earlier comment is that Trump brought Bircher-level insanity back into the mainstream of the party, with respect to how elections were viewed. Even if it's not creation ex nihilo, it's still damn significant. I'm not sure why you think this is the hill to die on.

It's been common rhetoric ever since then. Is this news to you? Have you not been paying attention? 

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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

It's been common rhetoric ever since then. Is this news to you? Have you not been paying attention? 

Who was saying that Mitt Romney lost due to fraud?

Who was saying that John McCain lost due to fraud?

Who was saying that Bob Dole lost due to fraud?

Who was saying that George Bush Sr lost due to fraud?

Who was saying that Gerald Ford lost due to fraud?

Show me the receipts for each, please. 

I'm not trying to say that literally no one was spewing such paranoia. Possible candidates include Pat Buchanan and maybe Rush Limbaugh. But where's the evidence that this was widespread sentiment, among large swaths of voters, or among the party institution?

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Rush was literally one of the biggest influencers of modern Republican politics that spewed conspiracies about elections being fixed when Republicans lose. 

Okay, granted. But it took quite a while for Rush's style and vision to soak into the GOP institutions. He had an early start with Newt Gingrich leading the House GOP, but that no-holds-barred approach backfired on them at the time. 

And you're evading my earlier points. I repeat: It was not a common talking point to say that Romney lost to fraud, or McCain, or any of those other previous GOP candidates. As I said before, my family loved Rush, but they were not ditto-heads with respect to the election results. Until Trump. Now fraud is the talking point of choice. Historical precedents and more recent undercurrents aside, if you can't accept that simple fact, then I don't really think it's worth continuing the discussion.

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3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Okay, granted. But it took quite a while for Rush's style and vision to soak into the GOP institutions. He had an early start with Newt Gingrich leading the House GOP, but that no-holds-barred approach backfired on them at the time. 

And you're evading my earlier points. I repeat: It was not a common talking point to say that Romney lost to fraud, or McCain, or any of those other previous GOP candidates. As I said before, my family loved Rush, but they were not ditto-heads with respect to the election results. Until Trump. Now fraud is the talking point of choice. Historical precedents and more recent undercurrents aside, if you can't accept that simple fact, then I don't really think it's worth continuing the discussion.

It was not common for classier Republicans at the highest levels to say it. That doesn't mean it wasn't common in the base and for lower level elected officials to make those claims. 

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

It was not common for classier Republicans at the highest levels to say it. That doesn't mean it wasn't common in the base and for lower level elected officials to make those claims.

Well if it's common, you'll have no problem providing evidence that it was common.

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1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Bircher-level insanity back into the mainstream of the party,

What about that trailer trash, SP, godmother to MTG, etc. from Alaska that McCain couldn't even be bother to vet?  The gift that has kept giving! :rofl:

Not to mention the Gingrich tea party nutjobs.  There are so many.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But it took quite a while for Rush's style and vision to soak into the GOP institutions.

It did not, outside the beltway, in places like North Dakota.  I was already hearing this garbage there in the 1970s, among just plain folks, god save us -- in the family. Not to mention the xtian garbage.  It was all over sections of the midwest and the southwest and north west. A big explosion then with Reagan's elections.

Ya, we travel a lot

Edited by Zorral
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8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What about that trailer trash, SP, godmother to MTG, etc. from Alaska that McCain couldn't even be bother to vet?  The gift that has kept giving! :rofl:

Not to mention the Gingrich tea party nutjobs.  There are so many.

I already mentioned that Trump wasn't the first instance of crazy in the GOP, and that he was just as much a symptom as he was a cause. Buchanan, Palin, Bachman; there are many precursors.

But specifically in terms of post-election talking points, fraud was not part of it. Even by the time of the Birther nonsense, people weren't talking about voter fraud impacting the results (beyond Trump's one tweet in 2012). It was only once Trump became a contender that the rhetoric shifted, and everyone else jumped on that train.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

by the time of the Birther nonsense, people weren't talking about voter fraud impacting the results

Imma telling you out there they were talking like that.  Not everybody by any means. But quite a few.  They were getting a lot of it in church already, because as the churches in these dying small towns died with them, the pulpits of the predominate protestant dominations were now filled with losers of all sorts, as the churches' seminaries attracted fewer and fewer people with both brains and ability.  At the same time was the rise of the mega/prosperity churches.

Yes, it took that reekin' pile to turn all of them into public blatant, racist, woman hating nutjobs, including the women.

I couldn't believe the words coming out of the mouths of people I'd known for years there, who were good people, who seemed from one month to another when he announced howling the idiocies -- including what a great biz genius he was -- despite my evidence to the contrary, living here for so long already.

Edited by Zorral
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1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Imma telling you out there they were talking like that.  Not everybody by any means. But quite a few.  They were getting a lot of it in church already, because as the churches in these dying small towns died with them, the pulpits of the predominate protestant dominations were now filled with losers of all sorts, as the churches' seminaries attracted fewer and fewer people with both brains and ability.  At the same time was the rise of the mega/prosperity churches.

Yes, it took that reekin' pile to turn all of them into blatantly racist woman hating nutjobs, including the women.

I couldn't believe the words coming out of the mouths of people I'd known for years there, who were good people, who seemed from one month to another when he announced howling the idiocies -- including what a great biz genius he was -- despite my evidence to the contrary, living here for so long already.

Well, perhaps you and Ty were part of different communities. The "innovators" of fraud talk.

But it wasn't a part of national discourse, nor was it on the lips of anyone I knew. And I come from a family of deeply partisan and paranoid religious zealots.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

you and Ty were part of different communities.

Very.  I come from literally farm/agricultural people who are the antithesis of urban and suburban.  One's church was the major community organization.

And now to get a hospital, where I grew up, takes a drive of a hundred miles. He comes from a large city in what was always a very progressive state, from rich people, as he often tells us, and definitely not churchy.  Ya get the picture?  

Edited by Zorral
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2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Very.  I come from literally farm/agricultural people who are the antithesis of urban and suburban.

And now to get a hospital, where I grew up, takes a drive of a hundred miles. He comes from a large city in what was always a very progressive state, from rich people, as he often tells us.  Ya get the picture?  

I meant different from me. As in, you two seem to be painting similar portraits of fraud paranoiacs, and maybe because you lived in communities that did so, whereas I didn't.

I still have the feeling that Ty is just painting with a broad brush, but that's just me. Even so, I can accept that certain specific communities were further ahead on the GOP's regression curve than most of the nation.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

communities were further ahead on the GOP's regression curve

They were cultivated as fertile ground, from which the crop could be further propagated. And it was.

Also these are states of radio because so many listened to the radio all day long in the cabs of the truck drivers, the radios on the tractors and other machinery, in the farm's machine shed where the farmers did a very great deal of their own repairs to the equipment, the wives in the kitchens where they worked all day.  As regions died as communities with Big Ag buying up all the once family held farms, and then the towns that serviced and supplied them died too, there was less and less local coverage in what media there was.  The radio became talk radio and christian radio. That talk radio was not even sane themn.  Internet also came very late there due to lack of being wired.  It is still true today in many places.

Actually -- aren't you a D.C. political professional?  Or have I misunderstood?  If you are, and you don't know this, it's really a shock. 

Edited by Zorral
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17 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Actually -- aren't you a D.C. political professional?  Or have I misunderstood?  If you are, and you don't know this, it's really a shock. 

I came to the DC region in recent years, and I work for the federal government. But I am in no way a political professional.

I'm originally from Northeast Philly, a largely conservative section of the city (and recently of "Four Seasons Total Landscaping" infamy). So, city-born, but originally from a right wing Christian bubble.

I have had plenty of insight into right wing and Christian insanity for decades now. But as I said, the election fraud stuff only came into national and family discourse in the era of Trump.

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Lifted from another site: Trump's Memorial Day comments:

Separately, Trump wrote, “Happy Memorial Day to All, including the Human Scum that is working so hard to destroy our Once Great Country, & to the Radical Left, Trump Hating Federal Judge in New York that presided over, get this, TWO separate trials, that awarded a woman, who I never met before (a quick handshake at a celebrity event, 25 years ago, doesn’t count!), 91 MILLION DOLLARS for “‘DEFAMATION.’”

If Citizen Trump

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Trump is now holding rallies in NJ and NY. Does he know something we dont, or is this overconfidence on the part of his campaign?

I'm hoping it is more like Hillary 2016 when she was campaigning in places she should have (based a lot on choices Donna Brazile made), but at this point who knows. There is a lot of uncertainty this cycle. 

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8 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Trump is now holding rallies in NJ and NY. Does he know something we dont, or is this overconfidence on the part of his campaign?

I'm hoping it is more like Hillary 2016 when she was campaigning in places she should have (based a lot on choices Donna Brazile made), but at this point who knows. There is a lot of uncertainty this cycle. 

I think there's an element of "see how popular I am?  All of America loves me, even NY and NJ!"  But it's also just laziness because he's in the NY area constantly for his trial. 

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