Lyanna and prostitution

[Tradecraft]

Before we begin, I must admit that our culture stigmatizes female sexuality. A sexually active female is called; whore, slut, skank, etc. a sexually active male is virtually cheered as a; stud, stallion, etc. it should not therefore surprise us that female prostitutes are viewed negatively in our society. 

In addition, female virginity is praised and male virginity is mocked. 

Alas! A double standard! 

But perhaps it wasn't always this way. The Ancient Greeks accused their eastern rivals of ritualistic "sacred prostitution". Young women would go to the fertility Goddess' temples and sell themselves to the first offer. The offering was given to the temple. Curiously, our author is aware of this idea and has included it in the Free City of Lys, here some women pay respect to the fertility goddess though their own body. 

All of this is to say that I do not view Lyanna negatively. And these connections to her and prostitution do not make her "negative" or inherently wicked. We even meet prostitutes in ASOIAF; Shae, Chataya, and several others. None of them are inherently evil. Shae does give evidence against Tyrion, but what choice was she given? To die with Tyrion? Not all of us wish to die a heroes death. I digress. 

Let us begin. 

1. Bara's mother

Quote

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she’d been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. “I named her Barra,” she said as the child nursed. “She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …” “She does.” Eddard Stark had touched the baby’s fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert’s firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall. “Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is.” “I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. “And tell him I’ve not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he’d come back. So you’ll tell him I’m waiting, won’t you? I don’t want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.” Good to you , Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

Eddard goes to a brothel to meet the mother of Robert Baratheon's mother. We see Robert once asked her to dress like Lyanna. And she still wears the crown of blue roses. She holds a babe in her arms and asks Ned to promise her something. 

This scene is, give me, pregnant with Lyanna symbolism. . She has a babe in her arms and is exacting promises from Ned. 

Many of the readers come away with the wrong conclusions from this scene. We see Ned "remember" Rhaegar here. But what does Ned remember? He remembers Rhaegar is NOT associated with brothels ,(and lusty behavior). Ned is in effect saying, 'whoa this is crazy, this doesn't remind me of Rhaegar and he has no connection'. "Remembering" Rhaegar is not sufficient to tie him to brothels and lust, not when he specifically denied the association. 

The implication for this is profound, if Rhaegar isn't associated with brothels and lust, who is? Lyanna is. Lyanna is symbolically in that brothel (because the girl wears that crown). She has a babe in her arms and is asking for Ned to keep promises. It doesn't get any more "Lyanna" than that. 

Again, this isn't a negative association. If you think so, you are agreeing with the presumption that female sexuality is negative. It's not. It's natural. 

2. Arya (actress and fishwife) 

Before I begin here I have to say that Arya is a clear parallel for Arya. Very early in the books we are told that Arya is the very image of Lyanna. In a series of books where Lyanna is a complete mystery, Arya is our closet representation of her. We get other clues to her parallel of Lyanna. They are both "dead Stark girl(s)", here Arya is presumed dead by the world... A curious detail we dare not linger on. 

Arya takes up multiple professions in Braavos. One is as a fishwife selling cockles, clams and oysters. This profession was notorious in the past for two reasons: the women were aggressive, loud and vulgar to attract the attention of buyers for quickly spoiling food, and the fact that this profession went hand in hand with Prostitution. Women would sell their clams during the day and sell their "clams" at night. Sorry, it's not even my pun! You could say here that Arya (a clear parallel for Lyanna) is symbolically prostituting herself and representing herself as a prostitute.

Quote

Stannis rubbed the back of his neck. "You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife? How many men?"

Strangely, Jon Snow's mother is accused of being a fish wife by Stannis. And that she must have had extraordinary haggling skills... A rare hint at the identity of Jon Snow's mother. 

Speaking of Jon Snow's mother the "fishwife". There is an old Irish folk song called Molly Malone. 

Molly Malone, a fishwife, is suspected of being a prostitute. In the song she sells "Cockles and mussels". Whereas Arya sells a wide variety of Cockles and mussels (as well as prawns, clams and oysters). 

That's not the interesting part. Molly Malone is interesting in regards to Jon Snow's 'fish wife" mother because Molly Malone "dies of a fever". 

And while most people say ot believe Lyanna bled to death, she had a fever when she died. And since her exact cause of death is unknown, you could say Lyanna died of a fever. Like Molly Malone. 

Later Arya becomes an actress, actresses and prostitution also go hand in hand historically. 

Arya even uses her sexuality to lure a Lannister Raff to his death, in the middle of a play she is acting in. 

The name of the theater is sexually suggestive, called "the Gate". 

 

Conclusion:

 

Lyanna remains a mystery to us.

But I believe her life was a complicated one, complicated like her niece Arya's complicated life. 

After all, in a book with so few direct references to Lyanna we should look to the Stark maids to inform us what Lyanna was like and what happened to her. 

Lyanna, like Arya, probably sold Clams and cockles as a fishwife somewhere. Kingslanding? White Harbor? Old Town? Probably not Braavos. 

I hope that I have established here that Lyanna is connected to prostitution. Even her deathbed, where she "dies of a fever" is a reference (To Molly Malone who died of a fever). 

And I hope that I have also established that female sexuality, including prostitution, is not inherently negative. It is only viewed negatively in our current society which punishes female sexuality and rewards male sexuality. The extent that this exists is beyond the scope of this topic. 

Lyanna is a young woman but it is not for me to judge a young women and her romantic (or financial?) entanglements. 

3. Arya and Catelyn spending time in brothels

Littlefinger hides Catelyn Stark hiding in a brothel. 

Quote

Ned was lost. “Then how? Why are you here, my love? What is this place?” “Just what it appears,” Littlefinger said, easing himself onto a window seat. “A brothel. Can you think of a less likely place to find a Catelyn Tully?” He smiled. “As it chances, I own this particular establishment, so arrangements were easily made. I am most anxious to keep the Lannisters from learning that Cat is here in King’s Landing.”

Here you have Catelyn (A Stark lady) in a brothel. 

She's not the only Stark girl hanging out in brothels. 

Arya spends time at the brothel called "The Peach". 

Quote

I bet this is a brothel,” she whispered to Gendry. “You don’t even know what a brothel is.” “I do so,” she insisted. “It’s like an inn, with girls.” He was turning red again. “What are you doing here, then?” he demanded. “A brothel’s no fit place for no bloody highborn lady, everybody knows that.” One of the girls sat down on the bench beside him. “Who’s a highborn lady? The little skinny one?” She looked at Arya and laughed. “I’m a king’s daughter myself.” Arya knew she was being mocked. “You are not.” “Well, I might be.” When the girl shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. “They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn’t have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best.” The girl did have hair like the old king’s, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal.

That doesn’t mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair . “I’m named Bella,” the girl told Gendry. “For the battle. I bet I could ring your bell, too. You want to?” “No,” he said gruffly. “I bet you do.” She ran a hand along his arm. “I don’t cost nothing to friends of Thoros and the lightning lord.” “ No , I said.” Gendry rose abruptly and stalked away from the table out into the night. Bella turned to Arya. “Don’t he like girls?” Arya shrugged. “He’s just stupid. He likes to polish helmets and beat on swords with hammers.”

 

Side note:

This will probably upset everyone. Everywhere. 

Edited Monday at 04:06 PM by Tradecraft

[CerseiWig]

I don't know about prostitution, but I did enjoy the "fishwife" details that you found it. especially the ones connecting Arya with Lyanna.

 

Don't know what to think of the rest. Maybe Rheagar was planning to pass Lyanna as his mistress?? 

[Sandy Clegg]

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Later Arya becomes an actress, actresses and prostitution also go hand in hand historically. 

Arya even uses her sexuality to lure a Lannister Raff to his death, in the middle of a play she is acting in. 

The name of the theater is sexually suggestive, called "the Gate". 

I don't doubt that Arya is often used as a Lyanna parallel, and that GRRM may be using Arya's story to clue us in on certain details of Lyanna's life. I'm not sure Lyanna would have had much to do with prostitution, per se, unless the time between being abducted by Rhaegar and Jon's birth was especially full of misadventure!

Acting is probably more analogous to that other phenomenon seen in the Stark children: skinchanging / warging. Or possibly even to Lyanna's role in the KOTLT story. The Gate is a crude sexual analogy imo, and is probably more tied to liminal places like the border between life and death / gateways to the underworld.

Not to say that Arya's story won't eventually go to more sexual places if the books manage to age her up. But it's true, Lyanna's story involved that word sex, like it or not, and Arya is our closest Lyanna parallel. So George may be using the world of the theatre, with its fake cocks and balls that flop out comically from a dwarf's trousers, as a way of bridging the uncomfortable gap between Arya/Lyanna's ages, in order to resolve the issue of how to use Arya's story to mirror the more adult aspects of events surrounding Lyanna (who herself was only 16 when she died, but allowing for medieval standards, yaddda yada yada). 

I like the fishwife stuff - the crank in me thinks it may tie to Squishers 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

We see Robert once asked her to dress like Lyanna. And she still wears the crown of blue roses.

With this in mind, maybe Renly’s plan to replace Cersei with Margarey wasn’t so stupid after all. At least in theory.

[Tradecraft]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

With this in mind, maybe Renly’s plan to replace Cersei with Margarey wasn’t so stupid after all. At least in theory.

People forget this very real Tyrell plot. 

[Tradecraft]

13 hours ago, CerseiWig said:

I don't know about prostitution, but I did enjoy the "fishwife" details that you found it. especially the ones connecting Arya with Lyanna.

 

Don't know what to think of the rest. Maybe Rheagar was planning to pass Lyanna as his mistress?? 

Rhaegar and Lyanna are not connected in Ned's mins.

Lyanna is associated with Prostitution and Rhaegar is not! 

[Tradecraft]

I seemed to have overlooked Arya and Catelyn's time in a brothel. 

I need to re-read these passages and incorporate them into the work. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

59 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

People forget this very real Tyrell plot. 

It's not that people forget it, it's that many think that it doesn't make much sense.

[CerseiWig]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

With this in mind, maybe Renly’s plan to replace Cersei with Margarey wasn’t so stupid after all. At least in theory.

That made me laugh. But you are not wrong!!

[Tradecraft]

8 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

With this in mind, maybe Renly’s plan to replace Cersei with Margarey wasn’t so stupid after all. At least in theory.

Speaking of "Margery"... Molly is a nickname for Margaret (Margery). 

It goes;

Lyanna--> Molly Malone --> Margery. 

And Margery Tyrell rhymes with Lyanna. 

Lyanna, if she is supposed to be a match for Rhaegar, is a threat to Elia (As Margery is a threat to queen Cersei). But I doubt Lyanna is ever meant for Rhaegar. She is not associated with fertility. 

Margery and her house is associated with roses. Which has to be considered seriously, after Lyanna's connection with roses and the Bael the Bard's connection with roses. 

 

 

 

[CerseiWig]

Arya ending in the show........ I have been thinking all day. She sails away to a new world. I wonder if Lyanna also had a dream of sailing or going into an adventure like Arya did. Again, I am really into this fishwife notes you found it.

[Tradecraft]

24 minutes ago, CerseiWig said:

Arya ending in the show........ I have been thinking all day. She sails away to a new world. I wonder if Lyanna also had a dream of sailing or going into an adventure like Arya did. Again, I am really into this fishwife notes you found it.

Jon's mother was a "fishwife" and possibly a whore. 

[CerseiWig]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

Jon's mother was a "fishwife" and possibly a whore. 

lol Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark. The show producers had to get this answer right in order to do the show when they had an interview with George.

[Tradecraft]

13 minutes ago, CerseiWig said:

lol Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark. The show producers had to get this answer right in order to do the show when they had an interview with George.

That's outside the scope of this post and an inaccurate description of that exchange. 

Grrm never said they guessed it right. 

[CerseiWig]

38 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

That's outside the scope of this post and an inaccurate description of that exchange. 

Grrm never said they guessed it right. 

he did!!!! 

 

edit. never mind. I thought you were finding some secret parallels between Lyanna and Arya.

Edited November 28 by CerseiWig
I messed up

[Springwatch]

On 11/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, Tradecraft said:

This will probably upset everyone. Everywhere. 

Damn right!   Were you asleep when you wrote this? And I usually like your stuff! ()

On 11/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, Tradecraft said:

1. Bara's mother

Eddard goes to a brothel to meet the mother of Robert Baratheon's mother. We see Robert once asked her to dress like Lyanna. And she still wears the crown of blue roses. She holds a babe in her arms and asks Ned to promise her something. 

This scene is, give me, pregnant with Lyanna symbolism. She physically looks like Lyanna with the blue rose crown. She has a babe in her arms and is exacting promises from Ned. 

No. You dreamt this. Or worse, you're dreamily conflating the books and the show, which can only end in the hopeless muddle that is the speciality of reddit.

On 11/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, Tradecraft said:

But perhaps it wasn't always this way. The Ancient Greeks accused their eastern rivals of ritualistic "sacred prostitution". Young women would go to the fertility Goddess' temples and sell themselves to the first offer. The offering was given to the temple. Curiously, our author is aware of this idea and has included it in the Free City of Lys, here some women pay respect to the fertility goddess though their own body. 

Don't be too respectful about this. Asoiaf has too many happy hookers. And too many holy hookers (see also, the religions of the Summer Isles and the slaver cities). Actually I feel very sour about the whole topic; I watched too many documentaries. There are holy prostitutes even now, basically the sex slaves of the temple priest, and it was a sad story, very unlike the fictional version. 

On 11/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, Tradecraft said:

Arya takes up multiple professions in Braavos. One is as a fishwife selling cockles, clams and oysters. This profession was notorious in the past for two reasons: the women were aggressive, loud and vulgar to attract the attention of buyers for quickly spoiling food, and the fact that this profession went hand in hand with Prostitution. Women would sell their clams during the day and sell their "clams" at night. Sorry, it's not even my pun! You could say here that Arya (a clear parallel for Lyanna) is symbolically prostituting herself and representing herself as a prostitute.

Possible, but the main factor is poverty, surely. I'd guess most fishwives would do their day's work and go to bed exhausted, only the most desperate would resort to prostitution as well. On the other hand, full-time prostitutes are likely to claim to be seamstresses or fishwives when questioned for official records. In GRRM's world, it's washer women more than anything. Water women, maybe.

On 11/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, Tradecraft said:

3. Arya and Catelyn spending time in brothels

Littlefinger hides Catelyn Stark hiding in a brothel. 

Here you have Catelyn (A Stark lady) in a brothel. 

She's not the only Stark girl hanging out in brothels. 

Arya spends time at the brothel called "The Peach". 

Yes! I'm pretty sure if you look closely, almost every notable female character is linked to prostitution, even if only in a passing way like Cat.

Off the top of my head, Cersei is named 'the Queen of Whores' by Jaime, and all her sex is transactional in the later books. Jeyne Poole has strong parallels with both Arya and Sansa, and is sent to a brothel by LF. Joffrey says a king can have whores aside from his wife, and wants Sansa to be one of them. Osha trades sex for favours from the cook, her boss in Winterfell. And so on. And the High Sparrow thinks all women are more or less whores, but I have to check that.

Something's going on, no doubt about it.

[Tradecraft]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Damn right!   Were you asleep when you wrote this? And I usually like your stuff! ()

No. You dreamt this. Or worse, you're dreamily conflating the books and the show, which can only end in the hopeless muddle that is the speciality of reddit.

Don't be too respectful about this. Asoiaf has too many happy hookers. And too many holy hookers (see also, the religions of the Summer Isles and the slaver cities). Actually I feel very sour about the whole topic; I watched too many documentaries. There are holy prostitutes even now, basically the sex slaves of the temple priest, and it was a sad story, very unlike the fictional version. 

Possible, but the main factor is poverty, surely. I'd guess most fishwives would do their day's work and go to bed exhausted, only the most desperate would resort to prostitution as well. On the other hand, full-time prostitutes are likely to claim to be seamstresses or fishwives when questioned for official records. In GRRM's world, it's washer women more than anything. Water women, maybe.

Yes! I'm pretty sure if you look closely, almost every notable female character is linked to prostitution, even if only in a passing way like Cat.

Off the top of my head, Cersei is named 'the Queen of Whores' by Jaime, and all her sex is transactional in the later books. Jeyne Poole has strong parallels with both Arya and Sansa, and is sent to a brothel by LF. Joffrey says a king can have whores aside from his wife, and wants Sansa to be one of them. Osha trades sex for favours from the cook, her boss in Winterfell. And so on. And the High Sparrow thinks all women are more or less whores, but I have to check that.

Something's going on, no doubt about it.

You are the only one on earth who likes my ASOIAF ideas. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

55 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

You are the only one on earth who likes my ASOIAF ideas. 

Do you have raw data to back up your claim, or is it just a hunch you got? 

[Tradecraft]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Do you have raw data to back up your claim, or is it just a hunch you got? 

I was corresponding with a person on reddit regarding ASOIAF with some really novel ideas and theories (they claim Brienne killed Renly and she clings to Catelyn's recollection of the event to shield herself from responsibility) 

They are homeless living in a car and I was like, am I that crazy? Homeless person level crazy? 

George, why couldn't you just write the book normally and just give us poor humble readers the answers? 

 

 

[Tradecraft]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Damn right!   Were you asleep when you wrote this? And I usually like your stuff! ()

No. You dreamt this. Or worse, you're dreamily conflating the books and the show, which can only end in the hopeless muddle that is the speciality of reddit.

Don't be too respectful about this. Asoiaf has too many happy hookers. And too many holy hookers (see also, the religions of the Summer Isles and the slaver cities). Actually I feel very sour about the whole topic; I watched too many documentaries. There are holy prostitutes even now, basically the sex slaves of the temple priest, and it was a sad story, very unlike the fictional version. 

Possible, but the main factor is poverty, surely. I'd guess most fishwives would do their day's work and go to bed exhausted, only the most desperate would resort to prostitution as well. On the other hand, full-time prostitutes are likely to claim to be seamstresses or fishwives when questioned for official records. In GRRM's world, it's washer women more than anything. Water women, maybe.

Yes! I'm pretty sure if you look closely, almost every notable female character is linked to prostitution, even if only in a passing way like Cat.

Off the top of my head, Cersei is named 'the Queen of Whores' by Jaime, and all her sex is transactional in the later books. Jeyne Poole has strong parallels with both Arya and Sansa, and is sent to a brothel by LF. Joffrey says a king can have whores aside from his wife, and wants Sansa to be one of them. Osha trades sex for favours from the cook, her boss in Winterfell. And so on. And the High Sparrow thinks all women are more or less whores, but I have to check that.

Something's going on, no doubt about it.

This idea is making me rethink all the times men called Jon's mother a whore. 

Instead of it being an insult. It is a subtle clue. Too clever by half. 

The clue is only revealed by Stannis' comment about Jon's mother being a fishwife. And Arya's life as a fishwife in Braavos.