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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Asha - Spoilers for ADwD

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...but out of Theon's mouth, that would sound like a self-serving (and transparent) lie. Ramsay could just respond, of _course_ Theon would say that, he wants to minimize his own infamy.

Actually, in AFFC, Asha remarks how she went to Winterfell to see if Theon had been taken captive or kille. She said it looked as if the Northmen had fought amongst themselves. If she tells Stannis this, then Theon tells what really happened, I think Stannis will believe them. And when Stannis believes them and tells Jon that Theon never killed Bran and Rickon, then it'll be interesting to see what happens.

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Re: the mysterious list of Bolton supporters, I think I have a decent idea of their identity.

- Umber (obviously- this is confirmed)

- Ryswell

- Dustin (Lady Dustin is Lord Ryswell's daughter)

- Stout (Dustin bannerman)

There should be two others, but who? Manderly is professing loyalty, so I would assume him; but I'd think such a well-known House would be remembered by those who attended the reading, so he's out. I'll guess Locke and the Flints of Widow's Watch to round out the list.

It's interesting to wonder how loyal house Stout is to his cause since Ronnel Stout was left with other loyal northsmen to defend the Ruby Ford incase Gregor tried to cross. And I'd assume they were late attacked by the Lannister/frey/Bolton alliance. I guess he may be the reason they are with them as part of his randsome. Certainly they wouldn't be quick to join if he were killed.

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Well, what pieces of him she can get hold of, anyway. ;)

Perhaps she should get ahold of Qyburn, and then there could be a quest where Asha pursues all the scattered bits of Theon that the Boltons are sending all over Westeros.... Enough skin there to make a Theon Puppet?

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I'm sorry to dredge up this topic again after so many months, but I was reading through it and had to note a few things

Personally I'd consider a Baratheon-Greyjoy alliance, in this book or ever, highly unlikely, especially while the older Greyjoy generation (Victarion, Euron, Aeron) still live. While they might hate Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark for the destruction of Pyke, Stannis stands alone in that he was the one who brought about the annihilation of the Iron fleet during Greyjoy's rebellion (remember that he was Robert's admiral, I assume he brought the royal fleet from KL and Dragonstone around the south of Westeros to join forces with the Redwynes and the ships from the Mander estuary, maybe the Mallister squadron at Seaguard, anyway...), which effectively neutered the Ironmen's only advantage in battle. Control of the sea made the amphibious operations against Pyke and Wyk possible in the first place. This must have had a major effect on the older Greyjoys, especially Victarion, who was probably there in person when the Iron Fleet was wiped out. Stannis probably occupies his own unique tier of hatred in the isles. Even if Asha and Theon are more willing to form alliances of convenience I don't see the Islands' commoners being enthusiastic about working with the author of their shame.

Might all the references in the Asha section to Stags and Trumpets actually refer to the arms of House Wensington? They're one of the few families from the Stormlands to remain fully in Stannis' camp; their banner is one of the flags flown from Castle Black with the Baratheon banner. I didn't hear the section read in person of course, so I don't know for myself. I enjoyed reading the speculation guys.

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Yup. And if the Blackfish somehow wakes a number of powerful dragons from the sea using previously unknown dragon-waking powers, he can crown himself King of the Riverlands and rule with an iron fist.

Well currently the Freys are going to be asked to transfer prisoners. Granted, Ryman is dead and Emmon is at Riverrun but if one of the other incompetent Freys ends up in charge of the expedition...

And I dunno about Stannis-hate. Victarion seems like the kind of guy that could respect someone that bests him in a fair battle.

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Well currently the Freys are going to be asked to transfer prisoners. Granted, Ryman is dead and Emmon is at Riverrun but if one of the other incompetent Freys ends up in charge of the expedition...

And I dunno about Stannis-hate. Victarion seems like the kind of guy that could respect someone that bests him in a fair battle.

Jaime told Edwyn Frey that the crown demanded all the prisoners that House Frey was holding. I'm pretty sure he meant it and made sure Frey got the point. Of course, disgusto-great-grandad Walder Frey could delay and prevaricate...

Victarion would respect anyone who bested him in fair fight-- he even respects a guy who he kills, but who fought bravely (Serry's heir) and resents Euron's shaming of a noble foe (when he realizes Serry's wife or daughter might be among the women Euron has strip to serve his men).

Random thoughts from the thread:

Who WOULDN'T want Asha? I do myself and I'm (mostly) a straight chick.

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Don't know if this thread is still getting any looks, but after reading the spoiler and the pages of discussion, I proposed the following agreement between Stannis and Asha:

Asha and her Ironborn agree to:

1. lay down their arms and vacate Torren's Square into Stannis' custody

2. cease and desist all activity against Northern interests, excepting those sworn to House Bolton

3. recognize Stannis Baratheon as the rightful king of the Seven Kingdom's of Westeros, including the Iron Isles.

Stannis agrees to:

1. give safe conduct to Asha and her Ironborn followers to their longships in return for their surrender

2. recognize the heirs of the body of Balon Greyjoy as the true lord of the Iron Isles

3. return Theon Greyjoy to his sister in the event that he has the opportunity

That's it; that's all either of them would promise for now-- no troops that each can't spare to support a cause that's not their immediate concern...no grand alliance for now....just an initial grudging trust of the other side and an acknowledgement that down the road may turn into more

from Asha's standpoint:

PROS- without this all the ironborn in the north WILL die, whether at Stannis' hand or the Bolton's, they can't get back to their boats and will eventually get hunted down. only realistic chance to get Theon alive and he's her only remaining shot at ruling the Iron Isles

CONS- after a surrender, nothing to stop Stannis from cutting them all down or hanging them but his word...where will they go now?

from Stannis' standpoint:

PROS- remember Tyrion thinking before the Blackwater that his father always said 1 man on a wall was worth 8 attacking it. Those kinds of odds would be ruinous for his small force. Even if Dagmar only has 50 men with him, they would probably kill or incapacitate hundreds of Stannis' men if they had to storm Torrhen's Square. He doesn't have time for a siege with Bolton apparently coming closer. If the Ironborn surrender he can present to wavering Northern houses that HE was the one responsible for removing the Ironborn threat and may win their support.

CONS- once the Ironborn are back to their boats, there is nothing to prevent them from raiding elsewhere in the North than Asha's word;if she breaks it he looks a fool and has no chance of winning the support of wavering Northern houses.......releasing Theon (and any of the Ironborn to a lesser extent) without retribution is not likely to be a popular move in the North.

Anyway, that's my proposal. If anyone is still coming to this thread to look at this, what do you think? Does it give either side enough to be worth the risk they are taking?

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Forgive me for hijacking the thread for a moment -

First of all, I had no idea there were that many spoiler chapters out there! I mean, sure, I had read Dany at the end of FfC, Jon 1 and Tyrion 1 on GRRM's site, and had even heard rumours of a Davos floating around out there. I didn't realise Martin was reading things at Cons and signings and whatnot! So, when I stumbled on this sub-forum, it was like Christmas morning, let me tell you! :D

But, that said, I'm wondering how up-to-date these are. Some of these spoilers were posted 2 years ago. And now we're hearing that Martin has redone a lot of things in DwD. So far, scrolling through these threads, most seem to be older discussions from when things were originally posted. Does anyone know if there's, say, another forum or discussion where we're keeping track of what's up-to-date? Something that goes along the lines of, say:

Character X, Chapter 1 is still pretty much the way it has been all along.

Character Y, Chapter 1 has been reworkeed - the order of events is different, but not drastically so.

Character Z, Chapter 1 now comes before X1, when before it had come after X1 and Y1.

Character A, Chapter 1 has been completely eliminated - we now see Character A through the eyes of Y in Y2.

Character B has been moved to the next book.

Character C, Chapter 1 has been completely redone. None of the major things that happen in that chapter are still there, though 2 minor things, and the best quote are still there. Plus, Characters Y, Z, and A are now present in that chapter when they weren't before.

(Ok, something as detailed as C is probably too much to ask for... ;) )

Sorry if this is completely off-topic, or in the wrong thread/forum. Please take pity on a late-comer to the spoiler forum! :leaving:

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But, that said, I'm wondering how up-to-date these are. Some of these spoilers were posted 2 years ago. And now we're hearing that Martin has redone a lot of things in DwD. So far, scrolling through these threads, most seem to be older discussions from when things were originally posted. Does anyone know if there's, say, another forum or discussion where we're keeping track of what's up-to-date? Something that goes along the lines of, say:

Sorry if this is completely off-topic, or in the wrong thread/forum. Please take pity on a late-comer to the spoiler forum! :leaving:

The answers are this is what we know if there are changes we woln't know till another reading of the same chapter. And those that hear it will likely post any known changes here in the proper topic or start anew. I'd imagine none of the major details will change like all of a sudden Stannis doesn't attack Deepwood.

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The answers are this is what we know if there are changes we woln't know till another reading of the same chapter. And those that hear it will likely post any known changes here in the proper topic or start anew. I'd imagine none of the major details will change like all of a sudden Stannis doesn't attack Deepwood.

Ok, thanks. (I figure something like an attack isn't gonna change that much.) I just didn't know if Martin himself ever came out and said, "Hey, guys I scrapped that sample chapter I told ypu about back in '06" or anything to that effect. I guess unless we hear (or read otherwise) these stand as they are.

Thanks!

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I'm still trying to accumulate ideas for a filled out notion of how it will play out now that we have the "Reek" spoiler.

With Theon "marching to war" with the Boltons, he is no longer trapped in the Dreadfort AND two Northern lords were specifically shown Theon before their departure. Not only was he shown off, but he was recognized.

Though his outward appearance is different, being flayed, missing a few fingers and toes, and the hair -- surely his own sister would recognize him (if not immediately, eventually.)

After reading all 12 pages of this thread, I believe we can all roughly agree that Stannis is now in control of poor Asha's fate. Bolton and Stannis's forces are bound to clash. With Theon in Bolton's party, and Asha in Stannis's accompaniment they an opportunity may arise. This has flaws in it due to the fact that as "Reek," Theon has little to no business in a skirmish/battle and as a prisoner Asha doesn't either.

If anyone still picks at these spoiler chapters, I'd be interested to see your thoughts.

Perhaps one of these Northern lords was an Umbar, as predicted somewhere else IIRC, and after this Asha chapter will recognize Stannis's sincerity to aid the realm. Perhaps, maybe not abruptly switch sides, but maybe send across word of Theon. It is all so very interesting. I love the North saga in this series.

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It's interesting to see Martin writing with an eye towards TV adaption. No big battle between forces over the castle, just a small battle between forces in the woods, horns to signify a large force, and final vivid image. Oh and lots of sex and nudity. Even though this was before the HBO announcement, seems tailor fit for the medium and the budget.

With respect to the greater discussion, it looks set that the gender bending Asha is set to rescue the captive prince-cess in distress and save the kingdom.

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Why bother with the extended arc and introduce a new plot device (Theon as potential heir) just to kill her off a page or two later? Devious he might be, but the Grim is not frigid. If Asha dies it will be later on.

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Hi, I'm new on the board. I just wanted to introduce myself.

As for this topic, I have to agree with the poster directly above me; I find it difficult to conceive that George would lay so much groundwork regarding the potential of Theon in Asha's mind to only kill off the latter so soon afterward. I think the more likely scenario would have Asha convincing Stannis to spare her life in turn for her support of his venture to bring the North under his control, no doubt bolstered by her scheme to place Theon as the head of the Ironmen. Obviously, with what we know from the "Reek" chapter, Asha's planning at this point amounts to nothing more than a pipe dream but neither she or Stannis has the requisite knowledge at this point to figure this out.

I think the greater question concerns what Stannis plans on doing now, in the aftermath of his victory at Deepwood Motte (which, incidentally, should be credited to Jon Snow). Even if Asha manages to convince him to free Theon, will they find out that Ramsay Bolton has evacuated the Dreadfort, or is in the process of doing so, with Theon in tow? You have to wonder if everything is going to come to a head in Moat Cailin between multiple armies, including, perhaps, even House Manderly's participation (with Davos brokering some kind of deal). In any case, I think George is going to have to start doing some character economization; by which I mean that I think there is going to be some great battle between all these forces roaming around in the North that will lead to a bloodbath, leaving dregs in its wake.

Also, for all the theorizing about what will come of the Stannis and Melisandre storyline, I'm beginning to lean to the position that they might not even see each other again. She and Jon might end up leading the retreat from the Wall, which will have come down at this point, following in the aftermath of this great battle to decide the North, picking up whatever scattered and wounded forces they can as the Others storm across the continent behind them. Undoubtedly, all this will make a great welcome home gift for Dany in TWoW.

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During this conversation about her options, Asha comes to a revelation. According to the laws of the Iron Islands, since she failed at the Kingsmoot, Asha is apparently not allowed to try to dethrone Euron. It seems that you get one shot, and one shot only.

Well, then it seems strange how Aeron motivated Victarion to revolt against Crow´s Eye after Kingsmoot, doesn´t it?

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So new forum member here, I cannot start a new topic, but how often are the Dance with Dragons updates changed on the GRRM site now, is there a regular rotation, does it even still change...right now it's on "Jon".

Thanks!

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So new forum member here, I cannot start a new topic, but how often are the Dance with Dragons updates changed on the GRRM site now, is there a regular rotation, does it even still change...right now it's on "Jon".

Thanks!

Rather infrequently is the answer, and at this late stage, there is unlikely to be a new sample chapter given to us. GRRM may cycle through one of the previous chapters that he has put on the site, which have included Dany I and Tyrion I. At other times and in other places (generally, readings at SciFi con's), GRRM has done readings from various other chapters - you can get a good idea of those from looking at the other threads in this forum.

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