Children of Hurin

[Calibandar]

Sword

The special effects and the quality of the actors along with the passion of an entire nation basically made an unadaptable novel into an amazing series of films....

I have a hard time imagining Tolkien not appreciating the McKellan's performance as Gandalf or be amazed at the Balrog or Cave Troll or Gollum.

I'm sure there would have been oversimplifications and portrayals and edits that he would have disliked but I have a hard time imagining even the most curmudgeonly and conservative Oxford professor not watching the WHOLE trilogy and not smiling in approval at what Jackson accomplished.

I think whether or not JRRT would have smiled upon the trilogy depends largely on how egregious he felt the transgressions against the actual story as imagined and written by him actually were.

I cannot imagine that JRRT would not find things to like in the Jackson movie trilogy. Certainly it has plenty of wonderful nuggets and he would quite likely pick up on different sort of stuff than we readers that he liked, but probably also very specific stuff that would irritate him.

We could look at the Zimmermann script which he absolutely tore apart, but then that was a terrible script. I guess the only thing it conclusively shows is that Tolkien at least demanded a decent degree of faithfulness to his written work and found himself magnificently annoyed by some of the proposes changes.

Visually the films are a splendour but I can well imagine Tolkien having big problems with the characterisation of some of the movie characters, or certain subplots and wholly invented sequences that PJ put in. There's some stuff in the movie trilogy which makes very little sense at all to a viewer who's read the books, I can only imagine what JRRT's opinion on that would have been, highly knowledgeable as he would have been. As for the visuals, to him they might seem very artificial, being an old man suddenly confronted with special effects. Or he could have loved the imagery.

There are a good number of things in the movies which are really significantly different than they were in the books Tolkien wrote, for reasons other than simply change of medium and the compression of time.

As an aside, I think that sometimes Tolkien purists are so concerned with defending every single minuscule detail that they forget the forest for the trees.

I consider myself a Tolkien purist as far as the movies are concerned and I guess it depends on what you consider a minuscule detail. Aside from that, clearly there is stuff to criticize in the way PJ and team handled it that goes well beyond the " detail" .

And would Tolkien have been completely immune and unaware of the incredible boon the films were to the LITERATURE of Middle Earth.

Well I would think he'd be happy with some extra income. He's human after all. That said, reading Letters should show you that the amount of attention that would have swung his way with the movie trilogy would probably have appalled him to the bone.

[Sword of the Morning]

You have good points as usual Callibander.

I know of what you speak. The characterization of Gimli, the over-emphasis especially in the last movie on the battles. The cutting of hte Scouring of the Shire. The overthetop death of Saruman. The misinterpretation of the tragedy of Denethor. The removal of Tom Bombadil. Frodo, instead of Gandalf, deciding to go through the Mines of Moria. For all these details that I'm sure would have annoyed him greatly and which I'm sure he would have had a thing or two to say, I also think that many of the themes that he was conveying through the books and that was most important to hiim were portrayed quite beautifully in the movies. Peter Jackson was a splatter gore director and at heart I suspect he still is. Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh knew the Lord of the Rings by heart as did Christopher Lee who MET Tolkien and reads the novel annually (and he's not young!!) I think they did their best to rein in Jackson as much as they could with variable success. Still, I do feel that the visual medium brings something to the table that the written does not. Reading about the charge of the Rohirrim is one thing but seeing it . . . SEEING it. That's something else all together. While I admit that the Trilogy is not perfect the indelible images the movies left behind of SOOOO many great moments from the books that I had previously only imagined still makes me greatful.

As for the income, well I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't have minded that but I was really talking about the books. In one of the letters, he had mentioned that it was gratifying to know how much the public loved his work and the passion it inspired. In all those long years he labored at it there was really no way he could have predicted its success and indeed by the end of it, he had really thought no one would like it.

I daresay he would have been more than tickled to see Return of the King make history on Oscar night or the literally tens of millions of new readers exposed to his books and the fact that his novels went through a second "Frodo Lives!" renaissance brought about by the movies.

I think the important thing that the Trilogy did was that it really LEGITIMIZED epic fantasy as a serious art form in cinema. It's not just elves and monsters and warriors. It's GREAT FILM. GREAT ART. Wizard of Oz couldn't do it. Star Wars couldn't do it. But by God, Return of the King finally did. And I do think that Tolkien who had to fight much of the same prejudice and ridicule himself while writing of Middle Earth (an OXFORD DON and one of the foremost philologists of his time writing THIS TRASH????) would have appreciated and been happy for the movies' success.

He would have been a huge celebrity of course and THAT he would have been horrified by . . . I don't think he would have handled the modern British paparazzi very well. :)

In any case, to get this thread back on topic, I think Christopher Tolkien should at least GIVE the movies a chance and see it. As for Children of Hurin, well what can I say, it's certainly not one of my favorite Silmarillion tales. I much prefer Beren and Luthien, the Fall of Gondolin, the quest of Earendil . . . I mean I found Turin Turambar's sad, tragic life so dark and depressing . . . it was just too gloomy for me. For whatever reason, Tolkien appeared to have the most notes on it though and that's we have this book. But I do admit to my heart sinking when I saw it. After Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, we have yet another incarnation of sister loving, friend killing, can't do anything right Turin. But I'll take what I can get.

Dennis

[Werthead]

As for the radio version was his criticism of a version pre the BBC version with Ian Holm? I assume it was because I thought the latter was very well done.

There have been two British versions, one which aired in 1959 or so and Tolkien wasn't too impressed with it. He died eight years before the Ian Holm version, which was quite well-received.

[Tears of Lys]

SotM, had to say I had a giggle when I read your "After Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, we have yet another incarnation of sister loving, friend killing, can't do anything right Turin. But I'll take what I can get."

It's wrong to laugh at tragedy, I suppose, but it's just the way you said it.

[aghrivaine]

Tolkien himself was quite candid about why he sold the rights to LotR. He said he'd been offered two choices - one to retain creative control but get very little money, and on the other, to give up all control but get quite a lot of money. As he'd already had bad experiences with American publishers, he chose the latter - get what he could up front, and be done with it. Also it was late in his life, and I'm sure that had something to do with his decision as well.

You can be sure that Christopher Tolkien was offered a great deal of money for the rights to Silmarillion and other works - but to the best of my knowledge he hasn't yet sold them. Actually, he might have - i've noticed a few video games with content that extends beyond just LotR. But to be sure, CT has been a very responsible steward for his father's work.

I dearly love the Silmarillion, and guess that Tolkien himself would have approved. Assuming Christopher does as fine a job with "Children of Hurin" - I think it will be really amazing. I'm looking forward to it very much, and am a big believer in Christopher's passion for responsible and respectful continuation of his father's legacy.

What other literary legacy has been as well tended?

[Maltaran]

Actually, he might have - i've noticed a few video games with content that extends beyond just LotR.

LOTR does have those wonderful appendices, though, and presumably the contents from those would be included in the LOTR rights.

[Arataniello]

"Trailer" for Children of Hurin now online

http://tolkien.hcp-uk.co.uk/thechildrenofhurin.aspx

It doesn't show you anything new except another piece of internal artwork.

Aratan

[Werthead]

I hadn't realised this is out just a week from today.

Someone on another forum claims to have read an advance copy and said it was pretty much just the Narn MS from Unfinished Tales with some more detail filled in from Tolkien's much-rumoured Children of Hurin MS and filled out to length with a very lengthy introduction from CT. So those expecting a lot of new content will be disappointed.

I'll still pick it up on payday, which is just a couple of days later. Have to remember to budget for Reaper's Gale a week or two afterwards as well though

[Isis]

Get your arse to FP and get Alan Lee to sign it. It's on your day off after all.

[Werthead]

Get your arse to FP and get Alan Lee to sign it. It's on your day off after all.

More to the point, it's on payday You going? Maybe we could turn it into a mini-mini BWB Meet. Since going more than two weeks without advanced alcohol poisoning is frankly far too long

[Isis]

At the moment I am planning to go, yes. I think it's 5-6pm or something like that. Plus it's ten minutes walk from work so there's no proper excuse for not going. It's not on MY payday though, so I should probably check the cash situation first, been too scared to look at my bank balance for a while now.

[Rhaegon Targaryen]

As for Children of Hurin, well what can I say, it's certainly not one of my favorite Silmarillion tales. I much prefer Beren and Luthien, the Fall of Gondolin, the quest of Earendil . . . I mean I found Turin Turambar's sad, tragic life so dark and depressing . . . it was just too gloomy for me. For whatever reason, Tolkien appeared to have the most notes on it though and that's we have this book. But I do admit to my heart sinking when I saw it. After Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, we have yet another incarnation of sister loving, friend killing, can't do anything right Turin. But I'll take what I can get.

Dennis

[Calibandar]

It's called The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

In an initial version, Turin returns to kill Morgoth. In a later version he returns to kill Ancalagon the Black rather than Morgoth. In later writings Tolkien seems to have rejected it alltogether, claiming there are no legends among the Elves of the End of the World. What you refer to can be found in the Shaping of Middle Earth:

"After the triumph of the Gods, Earendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky . . . Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Earendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.

"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged.

"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods." .

[Angalin]

Cool. Did not know that.

[naz]

The Second Prophecy has always pretty much been at or near the top of my All-time Top Tolkien Quotes Evar.

[niamh]

But to be sure, CT has been a very responsible steward for his father's work.

And Christopher is 84 years of age. I wonder who's next and I worry.

[Multaniette]

edit - come to think of it, everything tolkien wrote is pretty darn rad.

[Rhaegon Targaryen]

It's called The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

In an initial version, Turin returns to kill Morgoth. In a later version he returns to kill Ancalagon the Black rather than Morgoth. In later writings Tolkien seems to have rejected it alltogether, claiming there are no legends among the Elves of the End of the World. What you refer to can be found in the Shaping of Middle Earth:

Turin, comes back from dead to destroy Evil. He's Jesus!!! Suppose I better get that one.

[Jerol]

I read an interview with one of Tolkien's grandkids around the time the movies were released. Apparently there are several of the next generation Christopher is not on speaking terms with, including his own children. Anyway, the grandchildren say that JRR would have enjoyed the films overall. He might object on some points but he would have been pleased to see the spirit of the book was paid attention to, rather than just blind attention to the details. Tolkien's greatest nightmare was that someone like Disney would get ahold of his books, sanitizing everything and putting a happy gloss on everything. That's certainly not what PJ did, he was pretty clear on what a price was paid to defeat Sauron.

I still don't know if I'll be buying this book. #1, I'm totally broke right now. #2, the Silmarillion material is interesting to me but it all reads like biblical history and bores me to tears when I should be totally just flipping out. Impressive world-building but it's the lack of dialogue and characterization that gets to me. LOTR had all three in spades.

People can bitch all they want about the movies and I certainly have my quibbles, but I can't remember a movie that gave me such goosebumps as ROTK did when Theoden rallied his troops for the assault and then tore my guts out and left me crying when Theoden looked up at his niece and said "I know your face".

[niamh]

I read an interview with one of Tolkien's grandkids around the time the movies were released. Apparently there are several of the next generation Christopher is not on speaking terms with, including his own children. Anyway, the grandchildren say that JRR would have enjoyed the films overall. He might object on some points but he would have been pleased to see the spirit of the book was paid attention to, rather than just blind attention to the details.

That's exactly why I worry.