AFFC Reread Project - Dorne

[cteresa]

Thread to discuss the Dornish chapters in AFFC corresponding to the PoV chapters of Areo, Aerys and Arianne

Provisory schedule dates to start the discussion on this thread:

5-Dez-05 Areo page 30 to 46

16-Jan-06 Arys page 185 to 198

13-Fev-06 Arianne page 298 to 311

24-Abr-06 Arianne 2 page 587 to 604

UK Hardback page numbers

Let me know if there are any mistakes, or any alterations

[rpthomps]

The prevalence of the blood oranges is interesting. (pg 30 and 37)On page 30 Doran says “The blood oranges are well past ripeâ€. In fact this is the only thing he says for hours, which begs to conclude the meaning is much more than simple chemistry. As we learn at the end of the book that Doran’s thoughts are turned to vengeance on house Lannister, I think the fruit is House Lannister and as the oranges continue to fall around him onto the ground, so does the House. Also, the orange and red colours that come to my mind thinking of this fruit are very similar to the house colours of Lannister. It’s also interesting that Doran enjoys eating them so much. He will enjoy the taste of Lannister flesh in his vengeance and not the other way around.

Staying on the Lannister theme, Obara promises to kill Tywin by spearing him in the stomach and looking for gold in his bowels. This is very similar to the way Tywin actually died and to Tyrion’s thoughts when he killed him. Although, I don’t seriously consider this theory but perhaps Tyrion is safe with the sand snakes instead of over the water. Later in the chapter, Tyene gives Tyrion a passing reference and her comment is not filled with loathing as it is for Jaime and Cersei. She said “we had the imp to thank.†And she goes on to promote Myrcella as Queen to incite the Lannisters to war.

Another analogy to Lannister revenged: Doran “Bore the pain without complaintâ€. Referring of course to the eternal pain of his murdered sister, Elia and to the gout in his limbs.

Little questions that cropped up:

Pg 30 – why is Obarra so angry all the time? Could it be because she was a “whore’s whelp?†or doesn’t want to be seen as weak? She still respects her uncle however, by going to one knee in front of him.

Pg 31 – If Dorne is peopled by men of action how did Doran get to be the way he is? Cool, calculating? Did this arise when he contracted the gout?

One of the sand snakes is the name of Arya’s wolf, Nymeria, whom we don’t meet.

Pg 33 - The play in the pool seems reminiscent of the game of thrones going on in Westeros.

Hotah knows the prince and he knows him well.

Pg 45 – What game is Sarella up to?

[Archmaester Marwyn]

Where are Water Gardens? Am I blind or they aren't on map?

[A wilding]

This one is now officially my favorite ASoIaF chapter.

Occasionally GRRM draws on old fairy tales and gives them a twist, such as the three wishes that Arya gets in ACoK. Here with have the old theme of the three princes, each cleverer than the last, with the youngest the cleverest. The little touch with the Maester rushing to check that the last Sand Snake had not somehow poisoned Doran was superb.

And then GRRM caps it all by having Doran arrest the lot of them at the end of the chapter. Even on my first read, it was clear to me that he was not doing so just out of a cowardly desire for peace at all costs. Obara's idea of attacking Tyrell lands to get revenge was stupid. Nymeria's of assassinating half the Lannister family was not that smart either. Tyene's of luring the Lannisters into attacking Dorne had its points, but I felt that Doran saw major flaws in it.

In this chapter and the later Dornish ones the nobility of Dorne do come across almost like an extended family. They all know each other, and there are a lot of inter House friendships and bed hopping. It reminds me somewhat of my student days. Their common upbringing in the Water Gardens probably has something to do with this, it seems to be a custom that has been going on for some time.

Doran's gout would improve if he stopped drinking so much of that red Dornish wine that he is so fond of. I am a little surprised that the Maester does not seem to be aware of this, but I suppose he may have told Doran and been ignored.

[Elgernon]

And then GRRM caps it all by having Doran arrest the lot of them at the end of the chapter. Even on my first read, it was clear to me that he was not doing so just out of a cowardly desire for peace at all costs. Obara's idea of attacking Tyrell lands to get revenge was stupid. Nymeria's of assassinating half the Lannister family was not that smart either. Tyene's of luring the Lannisters into attacking Dorne had its points, but I felt that Doran saw major flaws in it.

Funny how in this context Doran suddenly begins to seem like the Dornish equivalent of Tywin, in that he is the true schemer while everyone around him thinks they have really good ideas and the ability to lead. This is very much like Cersei, and we all know how well that turned out. At least it appears that unlike Tywin, Doran will not stand for letting anyone else play the game and thus muddle up his plans.

I also find the Areo/Arys parallels very intriguing. They are very similar on the surface, but we know that Areo ends up being the better man (another Lannister/Martell commentary perhaps?)

[Thynessa Reed]

I enjoyed this chapter. I liked Areo Hotah whose POV it was and I liked Dorne.

Areo a native of Norvos, came to Dorne with Prince Doran’s wife. He wields a long axe with a 6’ shaft of mountain ash to which he is mystically wedded as an expression of his utmost loyalty. He is a huge man with white hair and he carries a brand in the middle of his chest in the shape of his axe - put their by the bearded priests of Norvos who raised Areo - the last child of a poor family. The priests seem to have great power in Norvos but we do not learn who Norvosi worship but possibly they worship the one God behind all the others as Areo refers to Dorne as a strange land with a seven-faced God (as opposed to seven Gods) The impression of Areo Hotah is that he is completely loyal to Prince Doran and devoted to Arianne whom he refers to as “his little princess†and who he has missed terribly during Doran’s 2 year sojourn in the Watergardens. Areo is very perceptive to an almost supernatural degree. He believes he is fated to come up against Ser Arys Oakheart, Myrcylla’s Kingsguard. Areo feels a kinship with Myrcylla’s knight but he knows the encounter will not go Oakheart’s way.

The only person who has served Doran longer than Areo is Maester Caleotte who is no more than 5’ tall, round and as bald as an egg and very clever.

Prince Doran himself, although only 52 looks much older. He is practically wheelchair bound by his terrible gout which causes him constant pain. His joints are swollen and reddened grotesquely, even the weight of a coverlet makes him shudder although he bears his pain without complaint. “Silence is a prince’s friend†says Doran. He seems the dialectical antithesis to the Red Viper his young brother by ten years. He drinks a strong sweet wine and takes an opiate for pain.

We see through Areo’s eyes Doran’s reaction to the news of Oberyn’s death - it takes him a long time to open the missive - it is like he has had a foreboding. Perhaps bad news has come to him too many times. We learn that Doran is a dawdler by nature, and that his sister Elia was always sickly having been born a month too early and after the deaths of two previous siblings.

We learn that when the Dornish want to go to war they say “to the spears†And when they go into mourning (or prepare for war) they flock to the septs and the pillow houses are also full as the women refuse coin for coupling.

Oberyn’s first three daughters are very different from each other but Areo thinks they all have their father’s eyes despite their sometimes being a different colour. The oldest Obara, hates Oldtown and would like it sacked in Oberyn’s memory. Nymeria the second to oldest wants to kill King Tommen because only royal blood will wash away her father’s death. And the third Tyene wants to lure the Lannisters south by crowning Myrcylla Queen according to Dornish custom. Doran dismisses all their ideas and by the end of the chapter he has ordered Areo to have all the sandsnakes locked up. Good job. Their ideas were foolish.

We meet Princess Arianne briefly. She stands 5’2†in her snakeskin sandals laced up to her thighs. Oo er.

[Waterdancer]

Areo Hotah is portrayed with very little depth to his character, showing the simple thoughts of a simple man. I would personally hesitate to categorize a seemingly simple person’s thoughts as equally simple, but that’s what GRRM gave us.

Areo is old, but knows without being a braggart that he is very capable in his duties. He knows he can best Obara and Aerys, but Hotah takes no delight in the knowledge. He is an effective guard, an effective captain, gentle with his prince, and unswerving in his duties. He is a man of few words, announcing his presence with the thumping of the butt of his longaxe instead of saying, “Yes, my Lord.â€

We are treated to a glimpse of yet another location – Norvos. At one point it was mentioned as Great Norvos at the same time as other Free Cities. Perhaps that is its formal name, or the name by which Norvosians refer to their home. Norvos is most likely north of Braavos. Clothing that is spoken of includes a horsehair cape, leathers, and a dress with a squirrel fur collar. Norvos has two cities, one on a hill and one in the lowlands by a river. There is at least some amount of animal husbandry, since horses are mentioned and fermented goat milk is drunk with honey (presumably there are beekeepers). Land is available for agriculture. Hotah mentions the foods he remembers as characteristic of Norvos. It is possible that these foods are imported, but since his family wasn’t wealthy and these appear to be typical staples it is more likely that the foodstuff is cheaper, homegrown items. There is an annual festival where bears dance down Sinner’s Steps. Presumably this is a religious festival where bells (each with their own name) ring out. Judging by the name of the steps, it appears to be a religious festival, and the bearded priests are the only religious order mentioned.

Bearded priests purchase children and train them in bodyguard duty. The weapon of choice is a longaxe, which is branded onto the chest of a graduate. It is the duty of the graduate to keep it sharp and sleep with it, as well as to “serve, protect, and obey.†Hotah entered the prince’s service when he took a wife from Norvos. I imagined that Hotah would’ve gone back with her, but for some reason he stayed serving the Prince instead. It seems somewhat sad that Hotah is still a stranger to Dorne, always doing his duty and never assimilating into society. Yet he will never see Norvos again. Besides, he has nothing to go back to. His mother couldn’t afford to keep him (no mention is made of a father). She is most likely dead, as may be some of the siblings. Hotah has no home, no friends, and no wife except his axe.

Prince Doran is painted with sadness too. He loves the children and watches the children at play for hours, reminiscing about his childhood and all the family he’s lost. The prince covers himself with a blanket even though it hurts him so the little children won’t be scared of him. He is crippled with gout, with no wife around and a child we later learn that he cannot confide in due to her talkative nature. All he has are Hotah and the children, the latter which he must leave to do his duty to Dorne – which the commoners don’t appreciate. The maester is a study in meekness, so the prince has no one at all that he can call a friend or an equal. The hot-blooded commoners love Oberyn, not patient Doran Martell. The prince has plans to bring ruin to the Lannisters, but in the mean time he must risk the enmity of his own people to pretend to be nice to them.

Besides Norvos, we are of course also treated to a view of Dorne. I like their cooking – those omelets sound yummy with their hot peppers. The diversity of people who call themselves Dornish is also noted – the children in the pool vary greatly in their appearance, mixing nobility, merchants’ offspring, orphans and bastards. The shadow city isn’t even named in capital letters. It is the largest of Dorne’s towns, but it is a seedy place of mud huts that makes Kings Landing look cosmopolitan and clean. I’d like to visit the Water Gardens and see the festival in Norvos, but I’ll skip seeing the shadow city. The three league ride along the shore from the Water Gardens to the shadow city is bleakly desolate, with only sand dunes to watch the party pass.

We meet the Sand Snakes, all less reasonable than Oberyn and less fascinating too. They are caricatures of fierce warrior women. Oberyn ingeniously manipulated himself in a position to tickle Gregor with his spear, but the Sand Snakes each come up with plans that won’t do any good. I mean, what does Oldtown have to do with anything? Why should it be burned? Assassinating key Lannisters would be a difficult, if not impossible task that would bring the wrath of various Houses down onto Dorne, all with more wealth, power, and population. Crowning Myrcella would likewise bring down some big-time problems onto deserted desert land of Dorne. Hotah is not afraid of the Sand Snakes. His only thought is that opposing them would displease Arianne, whom he feels affection for (in a fatherly way).

What I found interesting was that Doran knows what Sarella is up to. He lied when he said that he can’t do anything about her. The prince can always tell the Citadel what she’s really about. I’m sure they’d be so pissed off they’d be happy to confine her until a Dornish contingent comes to pick her up and carry her home. Doran doesn’t seem to approve of what Sarella is doing, but he chooses not to aid her or hinder her (as far as we can see).

Quick glimpses of Aerys and Arianne show that he stubbornly wears his too-warm Kingsguard clothing and Arianne dresses promiscuously since we can see that her sandals are laced up to her thighs. I wonder if there is any significance in the fact that her sandals are made from snakeskin.

I like the idea of the blood oranges being symbolic of the Lannisters. I didn’t think of that. Perhaps Hotah understands that in the deep recesses of his mind. He leaves the oranges to rot on terrace, but dreams of tasting them and having sticky fingers. Maybe that is a metaphor for killing Lannisters and having blood on his hands.

[Thynessa Reed]

That's a very cool post, Waterdancer. I hope you write more in this section. I also liked all the previous posts about Dorne too.

[Waterdancer]

Why thank you!

I am not a good writer by nature, so it takes a lot of time for me to compose a post, but I'll do my best!

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I also very much like Dorne chapters. It is interesting that many people whine that they are unnecessary do not advance main plot, whatever it may be, but they are perhaps my favorite part of the book. It is veru descriptive chapter, Martin manages to give us the feel of the place , and without any overlong descriptions, too.

Relationship between Doran and Areo is cleraly very close, and I think Martin has slipped here, making Doran ask Areo if he has any brothers or sisters. Doran didn't know it after Areo was his bodyguard by more than 20 years? My willing suspension of disbelief has just snapped. I could believe such thing of Roose Bolton or perhaps Tywin Lannister who wouldn't deign to take any interest in personal matters of a servant, but Doran clearly treats Areo as friend.

I agree that Sand Snakes don't seem to smart - at least those three, Sarella is clearly another matter. Obara seems dumbest of them, Tyene smartest, but still rather shortshighted. Oberyn supposedly taught each of his daughters a different weapon. We know that Sarella uses bow and one of smal girls morningstar. It would left three girls unaccounted for. I wonder what weapon thez use?

Tyene must be really skilled poisoner, if Doran is afraid she may have poisoned him by simple touch. It may play some role later in the series.

We see that Dornishmen are really andgry over Oberyn's death. BTW, whores giving it for free is very nice idea of mourning It is also already clear that Doran is far more skilled politician that his subjects give him credit for.

[Happy Ent]

Timeline This chapter takes three days. It happens immediately after Oberyn Martell's death, my estimate is two days later. (Raven from King's Landing to Sunspear, and from there to the Water Gardens with a rider or another raven. The Martell contingency at King's Landing probably had its own raven, so the Throne couldn't prevent this information from arriving very quickly.)

From my own notes (putting Joffrey's death at 1 Jan 300) this chapter plays sometime in the second week of January 300. That is almost two months(!) after my placement of The Prophet and Prologue.

ETA: Actually, let me revise that. Oberyn dies no earlier than Jan 12. (We have nine full days after Joffrey's death accounted for in Tyrion's timeline, plus "days" in which Cersei prepares the trial. Tywin himself sends a letter to Dorne, we hear that in a Jaime chapter that appears to happen the day after Oberyn's death. I think Doran receives the news around Jan 14, certainly not earlier.

[The hairy bear]

After doing some research about the blood oranges, I've found out that they are only found in Mediterranean climates (which fits perfectly to Dorne), and that they are ripe between Jannuary and April (which fits perfectly with the timeline of the story that HE is so diligently schematizing for us)

I'll add my comments later.

Later, ETA:

I also enjoyed the Dorne chapters the most in the book, even if the POVs are not regular and they do not advance the plot significantly.

GRRM chooses a non Dornish character to introduce us to Dorne. And he does not make it by making the foreigner to describe everything that's different or surprising of Dorne, but rather by narrating some given facts that relate to the current action. Besides, the POV is even from a location that's stranger for us than Dorne. A risky choice, I'd said, that works very well.

Where are Water Gardens? Am I blind or they aren't on map?

They aren't in the map. We know that they are by the coast, at three leagues from Sunspear.

Obara's idea of attacking Tyrell lands to get revenge was stupid. Nymeria's of assassinating half the Lannister family was not that smart either. Tyene's of luring the Lannisters into attacking Dorne had its points, but I felt that Doran saw major flaws in it.

But even with it's flaws, all those plans might have worked at some extent. The SS (Sand Snakes) only wanted to spill blood from the murderers of his father. Murdering some Lannisters, or cause them losses in battle is the maximum they can achieve. They can't dream of gaining the Iron Throne for the Dornish. Now, Doran has further information than them: the possibility of a Targaryen restoration would enable a sweeter revenge. A revenge that would come later, but would last much longer.

Poor SS didn't know of that option, so they just wanted to strike back with the only means they knew of. Besides, even the rush attack to Oldtown and its environs might have had some success if coordinated with the attack of the Ironborn. So I would not deem the SS as dumb.

whores giving it for free is very nice idea of mourning

I'm starting to believe that all the misfortunes that have fallen over Dorne those last years have not been casual. People might have a strong motivation for giving the Dornishmen reasons to mourn. For example, I could imagine Gregor Clegane murdering Elia while envisioning the prospect of spending some holidays at Dorne afterwards...

[Lady of Leaves]

Two things struck me as significant with this chapter (if we don't count the clues about Sarella)

1. Obara hates Old Town. HATES IT! If she really shed her mother as easily as she states she should feel little or nothing for the city. I wonder if we will see her raize the city after all? Also, why was Oberyn in Old Town at the time? He was rather young. Was he studying at the Citadel or just a noble guest of the Hightowers? Is Sarella's interest in the Citadel in any way connected to the time her father spent there? Doran mentions that they will leave her to her "game" - does he simply mean posing as a boy, or does he know more? He strikes me as someone as knowable as Tywin Lannister...

2. Areo might be prescient. He senses that he will fight Arys and kill him - and soon... Euther he has a gift (bestowed by the bearded priests?) or he is a lot shrewder about the Game of Thrones than his musings lets on.

I LOVED this chapter. I could smell the blood oranges, the sand, feel the breeze. I could taste the festival treats Hotah reminisced about. I fell head over heals with Dorne which was all I ever dreamed it would be after those first tantalizing hints in the earlier books. I almost forgave GRRM for killing off Oberyn. Almost.

[No Stranger to Valyrian Steel]

Oberyn trained at the Citadel, forging six links of his chain before "he got bored" according to Tyrion in ASoS. He must have been there a few years at least (Arellas earning three links in a year seems to be impressive) so Obara was probably concieved during that time.

I didn't read the free prostitution thing as a particular Dornish moruning custom... I just assumed that it was how they mourned the Red Viper, because he liked doin' it.

So Norvosi drink fremented goat's milk, Dorthraki drink fermented mare's milk... is fermented milk a real-world alcoholic beverage in some cultures? I keep picturing it as having a consistancy similar to cottage cheese, and the thought of alcoholic cottage cheese just sounds foul. :sick:

I enjoyed this chapter. Areo isn't the comst compelling narrator ever, but he introduced us to some fun characters and gave us a glimpse of Dorne, and probably the best view of Norvos we're going to get unless for whatever region the action takes us there.

Mycella has a septa attending her when Doran arrives. What happens to her? Was she clued in on Arianne's plan?

Doran seems to use the milk of the poppy fairly regularly, although he only requists a "thimble cup" which I suppose is healthier than Gregor's drinking it like ale. Since Gregor apparantly grew resistant to it I expect Doran's dosages will gradually have to get high and more frequent. Opium addictions are no good thing.

[sh_wulff]

I expect Doran's dosages will gradually have to get high and more frequent. Opium addictions are no good thing.

well opioids taken for pain relief are not addictive

and as Doran is extremely cautious and wants to keep his head clear, he is certainly using a dose lower than waht he needs

Gregor on the other hand I suspect has no patience and I suspect doeses himself hugher, thus getting the "buzz" and becomeing addicted

[Reposado]

i thought this chapter was much more interesting now that we know what doran is planning. he's so patient, waiting years for his plans to come to fruit. reminds me of tywin, really. especially in that he knows not to tell even those on your side of your plan unless they need to know. he understands the game of thrones and seems to be the ultimate player. he's making one move, but its the move that could win. and as we know, you win or you die. he's sitting in dorne watching all his enemies kill each other off while planning the sweeping move to clear the debris off the board after they're done playing. i didn't think nearly as much of him the first time through.

this was especially interesting as he appeared to consider tyene's plan as if thinking, that's not bad. i might do it if i didn't have something else in the works. but my plan is better still.

i don't think areo is prescient as much as he just has the full measure of oakheart and realizes that he is as dedicated to his charge as he is, and he knows enough of the workings of state that he realizes their positions will eventually come up against each other.

[Waterdancer]

Yes, fermented mare's milk is quite real.

It is called airag in Mongolia.

Bashkirs call it koumiss.

However, in Kyrgyzstan you may come across kumys, fermented mare's milk, a mildly alcoholic drink only in spring and summer when mares are foaling. Bozo, a thick, yeasty concoction made from fermented millet, is available year-round.

[Elgernon]

i don't think areo is prescient as much as he just has the full measure of oakheart and realizes that he is as dedicated to his charge as he is, and he knows enough of the workings of state that he realizes their positions will eventually come up against each other.

I agree . . . Areo has probably seen quite a few men like Oakheart who have more confidence than skill, and who also are easily swayed by those (Arianne) around them. I highly doubt that Oakheart will be the first (or last) of this type of man who Areo has dealt with.

[Jesatria]

I, too, believe this is one of my favorite chapters in the series. It is just beautiful. It was full of pain & lingering sadness. I almost started crying when I read the bit about Oberyn telling Doran that he could defeat a foe bigger than himself one last time & Doran agreeing to let him go. I also found it quite touching when Areo picked up Doran & carried him like a child. Leads me to believe that Doran isn't too big. Well, we know he doesn't eat much so he must be fairily thin.

I think it's fairily clear in this chapter & the subsequent Dorne chapters that the Martells are a very loving family. Hell, I don't think we've seen such familial affection since the Starks! Even Obara, who expresses outright contempt (although this may have just been grief & frustration) for Doran, still respects him by kneeling before him. It's too bad we never got to see Oberyn interacting with his daughters. It would've been interesting to see. He obviously cared about them enough take them in. I'm wondering how he even knew about them. And it's also very cool that he taught each of them how to defend themselves. I suspect that after Elia's death he realized that it was crutial that they learn how to defend themselves. Arianne seems to have some skill with a knife as well.

Back to the chapter, I find the relationship between Doran and Areo very interesting. They are obviously very close and as someone started above, Doran seems to treat him like a friend rather than a servant. I'm glad that Doran has Areo to protect him and give him companionship.

I like the bloodorange/Lannister comparisons. Very astute observation.

Another interesting thing is the children at the Water Gardens. In the appendix it states that there are children of all social classes and backgrounds at the Water Gardens. Likely we have peasants befriending nobles and vice versa. I wonder why this is. I'm beginning to suspect that Dorne has a less rigid class structure than the other kingdoms.

[Callandor]

About the blood oranges, doesn't Doran say "Enough" or "No more" or something when more oranges fall to the ground? If the oranges are the Lannisters, and he's really planning to "sweep the board clean" shouldn't his reaction be different? Or are you going for a double meaning, Lannisters and something (someones?) else?