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cteresa

AFFC Reread Project - Dorne

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Happy Ent;

It isn't how I read it at all.

"The lion is not as easily provoked" Lion clealy means here someone who has power, and is a feared adversary. Joffrey was underage and therefore not a lion, just another cub. After Tywin's death Cersei - the lioness - has real power. Joffrey's death wouldn't be relevant here, because it was still Tywin who ruled after his death and Cersei's preferences would be irrelevant.

I would like to believe that it was only careless phrasing on GRRM side - that he meant Joffrey, but only didn't put it unambiguosly - but I rather think it is a real mistake. I suspect that GRRM put this chapter together from two different versions and forgot to check them for continuity.

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I would like to believe that it was only careless phrasing on GRRM side —

... and even then it would be bad writing. I'm defending a turn of phrase here that I think is less than stellar.

How about this:

"The Lannisters aren't easily provoked."

"Pah. Joffrey Lannister is dead, as you know. It all depends on whom Queen Cersei prefers. Myrcella or Tommen."

They rode around in the sand. Darkstar sulked. Arianne checked out his buttocks.

Suddenly a rider appeared. It was Arys. He said, "Tywin Lannister is dead." Arianne gulped. "OMG WTF Tywin is dead!eleven!!1".

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I get the impression that Mrs Martell is on an extended visit to her Mum ie: she's estranged from Doran, and this chapter gives me the idea that the rot may have started to set into her marriage at the time Quentyn was fostered.

I've been wondering about that. I got the impression that Doran at least still loved her even if they are estranged. It's interesting that she does apparently have Dornish knights attending her. Maybe she's in on Doran's plan & is going to get Norvos behind Dany.

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I am in the camp of those that think the "dead lion" is Joffrey :)

About the someone, I think it is Darkstar. When Areoh appears he reacts too quickly trying to kill Myrcella and running away.

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For Arys

Arys thinks Myrcella is “not quite†one-and-ten yet the appendix has her age at nine.

Doran basically gives the Darkstar’s motivation in harming Myrcella for the reader.

I wonder who the Robert Kingsguard was before Arys.

It seems the Golden Company is composed of a bunch of exiles. If they think Dany can be their ticket home, they will probably work for her.

Arys conversion seems rather sudden.

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I found it interesting but also slightly disturbing that Arianne seems to have had a crush of sorts on her uncle.

Are uncle-niece pairings considered incest in Westeros? I seem to remember that they weren't in medieval Europe. Victarion seemed to think that marrying Asha was a possibility, but he promptly rejected the idea because she was his brother's daughter. Arianne's memory of her girlhood crush makes her feel uneasy as well.

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Joffrey was underage and therefore not a lion, just another cub.

Joff was not underage. he was King. He even judged those people in COK. Underage kids don't judge people's crimes.

Tommen is underage. He has his mother as queen regnent.

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Joffrey was still underage when he died, and his mother was Regent. He had more authority than Tommen, probably because he was closer to his majority and because Cersei let him.

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About the uncle/niece hookup potential, I think these two instances coupled with the Targaryen appendix saying Targaryens married uncle to niece is GRRM setting up Dany and Jon getting together in a later book.

For the Queenmaker

Arianne thinks Quentyn has bought the Golden Company. That could be true but not for the purpose she believes. Most likely it is just supposition on Arianne's part.

Another Dayne with Targaryen coloring. Mild support for a crackpot theory of mine.

Dany's doings are starting to reach Westeros.

"The lion's dead" has to refer to Joffrey as a later convo doesn't make sense otherwise.

The Dayne house is 10,000 years old. Definitely First Men.

I thought the Rhoynar had to have had their own religion.

Myrcella is very perceptive.

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The Princess in the Tower (an obvious War of the Roses pun BTW)

Most people seem to have come out of this chapter with a better opinion of Doran than then they went in. Perhaps perversely it had the opposite effect on me, partly because I had always assumed that Doran was working towards the downfall of the Lannisters.

Taking a step back, what happens in the chapter? For the first time ever, Doran needs something from Arianne - he needs her to persuade Myrcella to tell Balon Swann a suitable story. So Doran puts Arianne in solitary confinement fro a few weeks to soften her up. He then extracts out of her what she knows and her motives for acting as she did. Then he sells her a story nicely pitched to get her to co-operate.

Now obviously much of what he tells Arianne is entirely true, and it may well all be, but if I was Arianne I would extract some guarantees before talking to Myrcella. And I see a few cracks. Look how good a liar Doran is, swearing that Quentyn is not in Lys, he would have fooled Arianne if she had not known that Quentyn had left Dorne. Where exactly are the three eldest Sand Snakes? Did Doran not realise what an unstable character Viserys was? Why could Arianne still not be allowed to marry after Viserys death?

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Answering your points, A wildling, aren't the three eldest in slam, too? Doran is literally telling the truth about Quentyn. Regarding why Arianne couldn't marry after Viserys' death... okay, I have no answer there. ;) Perhaps there was no suitable #2 choice, at the time?

(And the pun never occurred to me. :blush:)

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Timeline

We have only two points of reference: first, this chapter plays weeks and weeks after Queenmaker. Something like a full week is accounted for when Arianne tries to win a servant to her cause, but otherwise we merely get the impression that a lot of time passes.

Better is Ser Balon. He has left King's Landing around Cersei IV (Small Council meets), if I remember correctly. (Somebody wants to check that?)

Since then he has been traveling. Looking at maps, maybe it could take him as much as two weeks to get to the Boneway. (It's about as far as to the Crossroads, but the Kingsroad may be much easier to travel.) The Boneway itself maybe takes a full three weeks, and from there to the Tor? Another week? That's six weeks of travel time, tops. He has been entertained for 8 days and then a fortnight—another three weeks. Currently he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne reads The entire Wheel of Time to him.

Anyway, depending on how we want to divide Swann's time between travelling and feasting, maybe he has been on the road for as much as two months now. Cersei IV was in the second half of March, to Princess is in the second half of May. That would give three months(!) of imprisonment for poor Arianne. If that seems like too much, maybe Balon has been riding hard (but still feasting for at least three weeks), and Princess plays in early May.

Another nice item is that it took Arianne six months to seduce Ser Arys. Remember that Lollys was knocked up when Arys left King's Landing, by boat. Give us a few weeks of travel time, maybe another month of nothing happening, six months of seduction, that puts Arys' seduction in the seventh or eighth month of Lolly's pregnancy. I have Queenmaker (at which time the seduction is complete) in late February, and Lollys popping out little Tyrion in March. Pretty good fit.

Other

Doran has given Arianne lots of useful books to read. Histories, maps, dragonlore—all sorts of stuff that Tyrion or this happy Ent would devour, as would anybody else of political acumen. Arianne, of course, would much rather read some Fantasy. She is really quite daft.

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Currently he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne reads The entire Wheel of Time to him.

:rofl: Nice one Happy Ent.

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A wilding:

I'm not sure if I agree with your analysis of Doran's motives.I don't think he puts Arianne in solitary to soften her up - IMO it's more because he misjudged her and has realised that he can neither trust her nor predict her actions. Thus he needs to isolate her until he figures out how to handle the situation.

Doran's problem is that he has managed to play the part of the weak ruler so well that even his daughter believes it. Presumably Oberyn was in on the plan. That would explain why he kept as quiet as he did. I'm sure Doran had at least an inkling of Viserys' nature, but I assume he was reassured by someone (Varys?) that it would be possible to keep him in check.

I don't see anything among the things that Doran tells Arianne that is obviously untrue.

Could you explain the pun? I know next to nothing of the War of the Roses!

Happy Ent:

I agree with your assessment of Arianne's reaction to the books. That paragraph really underscores Arianne's fundamental lack of interest in politics. As I've said before, I don't have a very high opinion of Arianne. This chapter made me marginally more inclined to like her, since she shows empathy for her friends and remorse for the consequences of her actions. I wonder if we'll get more chapters from her POV and how GRRM will choose to develop her character.

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Thank for comments. I was of course deliberately putting a bit of spin in my post. :) In no particular order:

"The Princes in the Tower" were Edward IV's sons, supposedly imprisoned and murdered by Richard III towards the end of the Wars of the Roses. This is a massive historical controversy, I am sure that there is plenty about it online.

I agree that Doran was telling the truth in swearing that Quentyn was not in Lys. My point was that by doing so he nearly managed to persuade Arianne that Quentyn was still in Dorne. This shows that (a) he is good at fooling people face to face, and (B) he was willing to deceive Arianne at this meeting.

Yes the three eldest Sandsnakes are also in prison. I was just wondering where. Apparently not within shouting distance of Arianne's cell anyway.

I agree that Arianne is likely to be a poor ruler, but I feel that Doran has to take a little of the blame for this. He should have been grooming her for power for the last dozen years or so. Instead he appears to have sidelined her and given her nothing of importance to do. Even granted Arianne was apparently not particularly good material, and that Doran was planning to have her renounce her birthright and marry Viserys, he could perhaps have done a little more with her than he did.

::Resists urge to make joke about Swann being likely to die of old age before reaching Sunspear if he is really having WoT read to him::

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I agree about Arianne. I don't like her very much, and this chapter didn't do much to change my opinion. She is manipulative and self-centered, superficially clever but not very wise. I also have to agree that it is at least partially Doran's fault. He evidently neglected her which seems rather strange, since he seems to be quite capable ruler.

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We've been told throughout the series that "tears are a woman's weapon," yet Arianne is unique among the female POVs in actually using them this way almost instinctively. And, of course, they work.

I'll add my voice in partially blaming Doran for Arianne's lack of training. He didn't give her anything important to do even after he found out about Viserys's death.

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The Princess in the Tower

Arianne seems weak. Harsh I know, but that’s the impression I get.

“How well do you know the game, Arianne?†Doran is asking about the game of thrones here.

“I want to know who informed on me.â€

“I would as well, in your place.â€

“Will you tell me?â€

“I can think of no reason why I should.â€

:rofl

I don’t think Quentyn has gone to Lys. Maybe to another one of the Free Cities.

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What should Quentyn do in the Free Cities? What the Martells need is to contact Dany. By now they should have heard about her dragons. I'd therefore assume he is on his way to Meereen.

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