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AFFC Reread Project - Dorne


cteresa

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Despite all the flaws of Arianne's that have been pointed out upthread -- Happy Ent, good catch about her reading habits! I forgot about that... -- I can't feel real hostility for her. And she didn't seem that/ bad until we heer the cool (and lone) voice of reason, Doran, in this chapter.

I think Quentyn could conceivably be either hiring the GC, or going straight to Dany. The former seems more sensible, but the latter, based on what we know as readers, "feels" right to me -- I

SPOILER: ADWD
got the impression the GC had heard about Dany on their own, and were heading there under their own motion (possibly with Tyrion in tow).

Agreed that it's partly Doran's fault. Arianne may have had an unsuitable personality, being too much of a gossip... but isn't a parent responsible for moulding a kid's personality to begin with?

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I agree with Mind Elemental. I just can't dislike Arianne. (Of course, I don't dislike any POV character but Cersei, so that's not saying much.)

It's not like she's significantly worse than your typical Westerosi heir. Just look at Robert Arryn, Edmure Tully, Mace Tyrell, Cersei Lannister, pre-amputation Jaime, Theon Greyjoy, Edwyn Frey, Joffrey Baratheon, etc. She's not nearly as promising as Tyrion or Willas Tyrell, but that's the luck of the draw. Sure, Quentyn may be better material, but Jon was arguably better material than Robb.

A few random comments:

Prince Oberyn had armed each of his daughters so they need never be defenseless, but Arianne Martell had no weapon but her guile.

I mentioned this in my last post, but this isn't really true. She has her tears, which actually serve her better than her "guile."

The princess had never been close to her brothers; Quentyn was off at Yronwood, and Trystane was too young.

Trystane was too young, but not Obella, Dorea, and Loreza?

If Quentyn is the new POV in ADWD, we'll have a chance to see the Martell family from his perspective. That should be interesting.

One year King Robert's brother came to visit and she did her best to seduce him, but she was half a girl and Lord Renly seemed more bemused than inflamed by her overtures.

Could this have been how Oberyn learned of "Renly's little rose?"

The princess might even have considered Willas Tyrell, crippled leg and all, but her father refused to send her to Highgarden to meet him. She tried to go despite him, with Tyene's help . . . but Prince Oberyn caught them at Vaith and brought them back.

Smart thinking, girls. :rolleyes: Wouldn't the Queen of Thorns have loved that?

If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?

:lol:

"I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk."

Given all this, it's interesting that she was able to keep her knowledge of the letter from him all this time.

Dorea stalks about knocking oranges off the trees with her morningstar, and Elia and Obella have become the terrors of the pools.

He let his eight-year-old niece keep her morningstar. How . . . sweet.

Elia and Obella are fourteen and twelve. The other children are between five and ten, according to Areo Hotah. Isn't that a bit unfair?

Some information about Oberyn that I found surprising in this book:

  1. He's apparently been a dedicated lover to Ellaria Sand for fifteen years, and he comes off as a more attentive father to the Sand Snakes than Doran was to Arianne. I would never have thought him capable of long-term commitments in ASOS.
  2. Doran gave him control of Sunspear. Oberyn didn't come across as someone you would trust with a task like that in the previous book, despite him being sent as an ambassador.
  3. His behavior in Obara's little anecdote. I'd always assumed that he wasn't as bad as he seemed, given his disgust toward Joffrey and Cersei's behavior. His treatment of Obara's mother effectively dispelled that notion.
  4. Doran apparently knew that Oberyn used poison, and didn't care enough to stop him. Nobody in Dorne seemed to care, or see anything wrong with it.

On Doran: He doesn't seem to have accepted that he's dying yet. None of his comments to Arianne acknowledge the possibility that he might not live to see his vengeance fulfilled, which would partially explain why he hasn't better prepared his daughter to rule after him. Valar morghulis, Doran. Valar morghulis.

His most surprising trait: Unlike just about every other skilled player of the game, there's no coldness in him. It's strange, but I'd almost begun to equate coldness and heartlessness with competence in this series.

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Good point about Doran. I hadn't caught that until you mentioned it. He doesn't seem to be aware of his own mortality. I've been wondering for a while now if he wants to die, to have an end to both his physical & emotional pain. His burning desire for revenge may be what's keeping him going. Sort of an, "I can't die yet! Not yet! I have to hang on," mentality.

Regarding Oberyn & Obara's mom, I, too was a bit surprised by that. I suppose you could justify it by saying that he is a noble & she, a lowly whore, is witholding his child from him and giving him lip, but still, did he really have to slap her?

I don't think Doran is a bad father per se. I wouldn't give him the Father of the Year award either, though. It seems like his relationship with Arianne is a typical father/daughter type relationship where the father is caught in the past & refuses to acknowledge that his "little girl" has grown up. As a result the daughter, feeling babied & overprotected, start rebelling against the father. Arianne does this by flaunting her sexuality. This makes Doran uncomfortable because he doesn't want to think of the "little girl who used to run to me when she skinned her knee" as a sexual being. And their whole relationship just goes downhill. Although I think it is important to mention that Arianne seems to have been close to her father as a child and still loves him. Even when she's dissing him it's clear she still loves him & hungers for his approval & acceptance. I do think, after reading this chapter, that they are going to try to fix their relationship.

No, Arianne isn't defenseless. It's implied a couple times that she knows how to fight with a knife, in addition to her tears. And for the record, I don't dislike her either.

And Oberyn totally gets the Cool Dad award.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Doran’s not having Arianne marry and not grooming her to rule Sunspear I think are both cases of his not wanting to view his daughter as a fully grown woman. He was okay with his plan to marry his “little girl†off to Viserys and not some other shmuck because this marriage wouldn;t take place for years, giving him plenty of time to let his daughter grow up. Now that this plan is out of the picture, Arianne is free to wed whenever and whomever. I think, given their relationship, this is a very scary prospect for Doran. If his daughter weds he can’t see her as his little girl anymore and she’s one step closer to producing heirs and ruling Sunspear. (Man, that was definitely the Psych major in me rearing its ugly head :) )

I think this whole queenmaker plot of Arianne’s really opened Doran’s eyes to the fact that his daughter is grown up and making decisions on her own. True, it was a stupid plan and still pretty immature, but she is becoming a leader whether her father likes it or not. I see Doran’s next move being to raise his daughter to be an adequate ruler. This is shown by the fact that he finally tells her of his true plan and is including her in further plots (i.e. getting Myrcella to talk with Swann). Also, the reason he gave for not including her in the past is now virtually gone. All the people she used to gossip with are either dead, imprisoned or sent away. Also, Doran might see Arianne’s obvious betrayals as a way to show her she can’t trust everyone close to her and she is far more likely to guard her tongue from that point on.

All I can say now is that I’m very excited to see how this Dorne situation plays out in the long run.

- Lannistark

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  • 1 month later...

I was enchanted by the Water Gardens, and dismayed by the "real" Dorne, the land is so hostile. The SS acted exactly as I expected given the brief chatter about them in the last book. They are probably a bad influence on Arianne and Doran might have been waiting for her to mature. She and the SS are pretty implusive.

Doran is more than he appears. Perhaps his gout is not as bad as we are led to believe. I believed his explanation to Arianne: offering her unsuitable matches because she was promised to the "heir." Lucky girl, he died. I thought Doran would chastise Arianne more severely. I, too, was disappointed that she did not take advantage of the cooling down time her father gave her to read the books and work at cyvasse. I think he gave her a chance to work the answers out.

Now Alleras. Ameon tells Sam that the Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler (very clever GRRM, since we all know the riddle the riddler will ask). And Alleras meets Sam and steers him to Marwyn. Alleras (Serella) is part of Doran's carefully laid plans. He's a crafty one. So Doran had to have been in contact with Aemon while he was on the Wall.

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Ameon tells Sam that the Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler (very clever GRRM, since we all know the riddle the riddler will ask). And Alleras meets Sam and steers him to Marwyn. Alleras (Serella) is part of Doran's carefully laid plans. He's a crafty one. So Doran had to have been in contact with Aemon while he was on the Wall.

What do you mean with "we all know the riddle the riddler will ask"? Could you explain, please.

I don't belive Doran would trust a 17 year old girl with his plans. He is very careful with them.

I don't think Doran was in contact with Aemon either because Aemon refused a game of thrones three times. He remained loyal to his vow, and Doran knew that. That means that telling Aemon his plans would not make sense, because Aemon would probably refuse him too.

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The SS acted exactly as I expected given the brief chatter about them in the last book.

I wonder what Ellaria's children are like. Each of the four Sand Snakes we've met have been distinct, and reflected widely different aspects of their father's personality. How distinct could Elia, Obella, Dorea, and Loreza be, having the same mother? How many more aspects of Oberyn's personality can GRRM find?

They are probably a bad influence on Arianne and Doran might have been waiting for her to mature. She and the SS are pretty implusive.

I agree. No doubt Oberyn played his own role in that as well.

However, I wonder if Doran shouldn't take some of the blame. She's had a pampered life, and he's never given her any real responsibilites that would actually encourage her to mature. Also, notice that all of her fond childhood memories revolved around her cousins and her uncle. She seems to have spent a lot more time with them than she ever spent with her father, which is why I mentioned in a previous post that Oberyn suprisingly came off as the more attentive parent.

Doran is more than he appears. Perhaps his gout is not as bad as we are led to believe.

Areo Hotah seems to believe it is, so if Doran's putting on an act, he must be trying to fool everyone for some reason.

I thought Doran would chastise Arianne more severely.

Yes, I found it surprising that he assured her that she would inherit Dorne before finding out why she plotted against him. I'm not sure even Ned, practically the only other loving father we've seen in this series, would have done that had Robb decided to plot against him.

I, too, was disappointed that she did not take advantage of the cooling down time her father gave her to read the books and work at cyvasse. I think he gave her a chance to work the answers out.

I agree. As Happy Ent said, I guess she really isn't that bright.

I wonder about Doran's intentions here. Her imprisonment eventually caused her to fall into a depression. This isn't an unforeseeable consequence, but did Doran actually mean for this to happen?

Alleras (Serella) is part of Doran's carefully laid plans. He's a crafty one. So Doran had to have been in contact with Aemon while he was on the Wall.

I doubt this. This game is bigger than any of the players, even Varys, understands. I think Sarella's involvement is just another example of the gods smashing his careful plans all awry.

I don't belive Doran would trust a 17 year old girl with his plans. He is very careful with them.

Actually, she's 19 going on 20 at the beginning of AFFC. Not that it matters.

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Well, it seems that Arianne was closer to her father as a child and they drifted apart as she grew older. I doubt that Doran, given that he loves his children so much, would've been neglectful of her as a child. I'm sure he ensured that he'd be able to spend time with her.

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Actually, she's 19 going on 20 at the beginning of AFFC. Not that it matters.

Well, I was talking about the GOT, when entire thing started. Doran was plotting then, and She was 17 then.

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Well, it seems that Arianne was closer to her father as a child and they drifted apart as she grew older. I doubt that Doran, given that he loves his children so much, would've been neglectful of her as a child. I'm sure he ensured that he'd be able to spend time with her.

Yes, we know from both of our Dornish POVs that he did spend some time with her, and they seemed to have had a healthy relationship prior to Arianne's discovery of the letter. However, judging by her childhood memories, she seems to have spent far more time with her cousins and uncle.

Ealasaid suggested that the Sand Snakes were a bad influence on Arianne, and I agree. However, if Doran believed this, then he could have fixed it easily by not letting her spend time with them almost 24/7.

Ealasaid also suggested that Doran might have been waiting for Arianne to mature. No doubt this is correct to some degree. The problem is that he seems to have been waiting for her to mature, while simultaneously trying to preserve her childhood by not letting her deal with anything that might actually encourage her to mature.

Note that Doran went off to the Water Gardens two years prior to AFFC, and in that time he'd apparently seen Arianne a grand total of four times. At least part of this time would have been after he learned of Viserys's death, so he would have known that Arianne would rule Dorne after him.

When Ned had business with his lords, he always made sure Robb sat by his side. When Randyll Tarly had business, he always summoned Sam, until he replaced him with Dickon. When Doran had business, he summoned . . . Oberyn?

Now, I'm not saying that Doran is a horrible father. Westeros is filled with lousy fathers, but I wouldn't consider him one of them. However, I do think he should take some of the blame for how his daughter turned out.

Well, I was talking about the GOT, when entire thing started. Doran was plotting then, and She was 17 then.

Doran started plotting 17 years ago, when she was two. She didn't go off to the Citadel until she was 18, so even if Ealasaid's theory is correct, Doran wouldn't have had to confide in her when she was 17. Again, though, this is just a minor nitpick. I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

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Sorry. Did not mean to start so much controversy..

The riddle the sphinx in Greek mythology is "What creature walks on four legs in the morning, then two at noon, then three in the evening?" A paraphase. And the answer is man, crawling at infancy, two legs in his prime and leaning on a cane at the end of life. But Alleras the Sphinx will not ask the question, but know something or have the answer.

I got the idea that Sarella/Alleras is pretty bright and unlike the rest of the SS in that she does not have implusivity that the others share. Her "little game" would require great patience and acting skill. We really haven't been clued in on what goes on at the Citadel -- so a plant there would be a coup. And it seems significant that Doran knows about it her masquerade and so does the trusted Hotah.

My thought that Aemon was communicating with Doran was that he knew Sam was coming and somehow alerted Alleras. But I foolishly overlooked the candles. Perhaps Marwyn can see with the candles and that gave him the information Sam was in the city.

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  • 2 months later...

The Sand Snakes plans are not, per se, bad ones, certainly measured against an average of plots going on in Westeros. I think that the comparison between this and Doran's plan is one that can be allegorised.

I read elsewhere that Tyrion, while very smart, was not wise. He could come up with inqeniuous solutions to problems, but he didn't have the long term vision of Tywin. A lot of people took this as a criticism of Tyrion, but I (a big fan of Tyrion) think it's accurate. He could yet grow into wisdom, and probably will.

Perhaps this, the difference between the length of time people can think over. No doubt there are people, like Ned, who seem to be thinking veyr slowly, but are doing it over very long periods of time, trans-generational, so much so that his decisions don't seem to make any sense in a normal human context (manning the wall against a threat 8,000 years old, sticking to principles of "honour" which disadvantage him and his cause but which provide a pathway to salvation for humanity if practiced over generations).

Incidentally I've never heard the name "Doran" before. I'm posting from work, and I've just taken a call from a man named Doran, right in the middle of typing this.

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The Sphinx is the Riddle, not the Riddler. I think this merely refers to her being a Sandsnake. Her entire life must be an enigma to hide the fact that she is female from learned men like the Maesters. I wish there would have been more coherance in Aemon's babbling. It sounds like he was making actual prophecy.

The things I found most significant in the Dornish chapters were the actions of Quentyn and Doran. I had always figured the Dornish would be behind the Targareans, so I caught on as soon as Arianne started thinking about the letter and all the lousy marriages her father tried to arrange. (Yay me!) I think the entire Dornish point of view was solely for this purpose, and may be a large part of why George decided to split the books. It would be a sort of lame revelation if we saw Quentyn with Dany before Arrianne has everything spelled out to her by her father. The other reason for a Dornish point of view is simply to open up this, here-to-fore, mysterious corner of the world.

Other than the connection with Dany, the Sphinx, and perhaps Darkstar, I really did not find anything hidden in these chapters. Though, of course, once we have another book or two on top of this we'll probably find a dozen things that we glossed over because we did not see the import in them at the time. :cool:

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  • 5 months later...

RE: The blood oranges.....

I know that this discussion is long over, but I thought I'd just chime in with my interpretation of the blood oranges. I think that they can potentially mean a variety of things depending on their context.....in other words it could be that there is not one set "thing" that they represent throughout the book, that the meaning is fluid (for instance the Littlefinger comment vs the meaning of the oranges to Doran vs the meaning of the oranges to GRRM :P). The blood oranges in the first chapter I found simply to be a very nice bookend so to speak to Doran's final words in the last Dorne chapter: "Fire and Blood." I didn't really think of it as an elaborate metaphor for one thing in particular at the time, and I certainly didn't think they represented Lannister colors. I did think that they could in that context represent the long-overdue return of the Targaryens supported by Dorne, in fire (orange), and dripping with blood. (?) Or, if you look at Littlefinger's comments as having bearing on blood oranges in general, perhaps they just signify "getting one's hands dirty" in general. Doran winces when he sees them, perhaps wincing at the thought of having to do something he does really want to do (aka spilling some blood)? Also, Hotah's mouth watering at the thought of the blood oranges might just be him subconsciously wanting to get Arys' blood on his hands?

I dunno, just my belated, lack-of-sleep-induced thoughts. Its probably more likely that the blood oranges represent what everyone else has already said above much more eloquently. :P

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Oberyn trained at the Citadel, forging six links of his chain before "he got bored" according to Tyrion in ASoS. He must have been there a few years at least (Arellas earning three links in a year seems to be impressive) so Obara was probably concieved during that time.

In reading this Dorne thread I came up with my own crackpot theory: Sarella Sand = Alleras the Sphinx

Sarella was taught the bow and was "playing a game" in Oldtown.

"'The day you make them all is the day you stop improving.' Alleras unstrung his longbow and eased it to its leather case. The bow was carved from goldenheart, a rare and fabled wood from the Summer Isles. Pate had tried to bend it once, and failed. The Sphinx looks slight, but there's strength in those slim arms...."

It's too hard to resist! 'Wood from the Summer Isles' and 'slim arms.' Now that's cool.

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