AFFC Reread Project - Arya

[wfzimmerman]

The entrance to the House of Black and White is made up of carved doors twelve feet high - the left door made of weirwood and the right of ebony. In the centre is a carved moonface - ebony on the weirwood side, wierwood on the ebony, and the look of it somehow reminds Arya of the heart tree in the godswood of Winterfell.

It seems very important somehow that the wooden doors to the temple of the Faceless men are made of both ebony and weirwood. In this world, weirwood has always been a hallmark of authenticity. Later, Arya is reassured when she smells snow and pine needles.

There seems to be a deep connection between the culture of the North and the culture of Braavos. After all, Ned Stark turned Braavos for Sylvio Forel when he needed a swordmaster he could trust. Is there more to the relations between North and Braavos than we have seen hitherto?

[Cold Steel Reyne]

IMO the two ways that the sailors respond to Arya are not as much to a FM as to the god they represent,the Many Faced God ,who is the god of death. Some think that if they are known by name to have aided or gifted one of his servants,he will hold back from taking them. The other idea is that if they don't attract the servant's attention then the god may not notice them either. As Dani put it "All men must die.But not for a long time ,we hope."

[NymArya]

There seems to be a deep connection between the culture of the North and the culture of Braavos. After all, Ned Stark turned Braavos for Sylvio Forel when he needed a swordmaster he could trust. Is there more to the relations between North and Braavos than we have seen hitherto?

The first men came from across the narrow sea.. which is exactly where Bravos is located. I don't believe Bravos was around then, but I could see them sharing some lineage.

[False Prophet]

IMO the two ways that the sailors respond to Arya are not as much to a FM as to the god they represent,the Many Faced God ,who is the god of death. Some think that if they are known by name to have aided or gifted one of his servants,he will hold back from taking them. The other idea is that if they don't attract the servant's attention then the god may not notice them either. As Dani put it "All men must die.But not for a long time ,we hope."

This assumes that all of them want the same thing, which is not a given (although, a very likely proposition). But this is just guesswork. The real reason, I think, is rooted in the concept of identity in the Many-Faced cult, which the story has only started hinted at ("Who are you?" and the like) and which will doubtless be developed further in the rest of the series. Among other things, we must learn why the Faceless Men are called faceless, before speculating on why different people give Arya, or withhold from her, their names.

Leo

[Jon Targaryen]

At least Arya still remembers Jon. He is the only family she thinks still alive.

Arya has lost her faith in all gods, leaving her open to the Many-Faced God.

Do the Braavosi have their own language or is it just a bastard form of High Valyrian?

[False Prophet]

Do the Braavosi have their own language or is it just a bastard form of High Valyrian?

Spanish used to be a bastard form of Latin. That doesn't make it any less of a language.

Leo

[NymArya]

Building on the Bravos/First Men thing - don't the old gods have many faces? All those trees with faces on them are the faces of thier gods. Isn't that a god with many-faces then? Not to mention the door on the temple that was made partially out of Weirwood reminded her of the faces that she saw on heart trees.

[Ashara Stark]

I am sorry but I cannot see the connection between Braavosi and the First Men

The First Men came across the narrow sea to Westeros, but so did Andals and Rhoynar. Morover, I don't think the heart trees are the faces of the old gods . They are a means for communicating with them or with the Childreen of the Forest, not the gods themselves.

In any case, the faces on the trees were carved by the Children of the Forest, and the First Men cut down the trees during the war against the CotF.

The place where the culture of the First Men has been truly preserved is North of the Wall and IMHO wildings and braavosi hardly share anything in common.

[LadySoftheart]

I loved this chapter mostly for the chance to see something of the fabled Free Cities of which we've heard so much in these books - and Braavos did not disappoint. In later chapters, it will seem even more modeled on Venice, but even here with the lagoon and the stone city and the hundreds of islands (well, a little exaggeration from Venice) and especially the great Arsenal, the links are very clear. Interestingly, I think Venice was more tolerant of religious dissent than many other cities of the contemporary period as well - they traded with the Ottoman Turks and although Jews were forced to live in the foundry district (the ghetto) and wear special clothing, they were not expelled as they were from Spain and Portugal. And lastly, the Venetians did not permit the Inquisition on Venetian territory, I believe. But in this respect - the religious tolerance - Braavos reminded me even more of another city built on canals: Amsterdam. The only jarring note for me was the "Titan" - not the concept, which I loved, but that it suggests to me very specifically mythology from our own world (Chronos fathering Zeus and destroying his other children only to be destroyed by Zeus in turn!)

Arya thinks that she never finds the places she sets out to reach - in a way, this is a metaphor for all the journeys we've seen in these books, isn't it?

She thinks also that she doesn't need friends; only Needle. I don't think this is so much a commentary on Arya's hardening (that will come later) but on her belief that anyone she allows herself to love and befriend and who befriends her will end up dead. Or else, as she sees it, they will betray her like Gendry and Hot Pie did, by not following her. The pack is dead, but the lone wolf survives - in Arya's mind (although this is contradicted by Nymeria, her direwolf, who has gotten a new pack.)

I love the ending of this chapter - it's both hideous and gross and startlingly effective to have the Faceless Man actually BE a faceless man when Arya meets him - nothing more than a skull representing the mortality of everyone. (And another link to Amsterdam and the great Dutch genre painters who painted all those memento mori paintings for people )

[NYC Falcon]

It seems very important somehow that the wooden doors to the temple of the Faceless men are made of both ebony and weirwood. In this world, weirwood has always been a hallmark of authenticity. Later, Arya is reassured when she smells snow and pine needles.

There seems to be a deep connection between the culture of the North and the culture of Braavos. After all, Ned Stark turned Braavos for Sylvio Forel when he needed a swordmaster he could trust. Is there more to the relations between North and Braavos than we have seen hitherto?

Interesting thought.

Spanish used to be a bastard form of Latin. That doesn't make it any less of a language.

Leo

Says you.

Building on the Bravos/First Men thing - don't the old gods have many faces? All those trees with faces on them are the faces of thier gods. Isn't that a god with many-faces then? Not to mention the door on the temple that was made partially out of Weirwood reminded her of the faces that she saw on heart trees.

All gods are the manifestation of the Faceless God. Classic Hinduism.

[Platypus]

Going with the idea that Faceless Men can decide on whom they kill depending on the name of the target, what does that spell for people in Westeros? It potentially can set up the killing of Sansa, Stoneheart/Cat, and even (bah I cannot remember her name) the girl impersonating Arya at the Dreadfort. I know that this idea has been bantered around on the boards about Arya being hired to kill someone in the series.

Just my .02

[HimOfTwoFaces]

A lot of people have mentioned the doors to the House of Black and White being made of ebony and weirwood, but I haven't seen anybody comment on the fact that the doors in the House of the Undying were also made of those materials.

My guess is they're meant to represent ice and fire. This is one of the many reasons why I don't trust the religion of R'hllor. Every other ancient religion seems to use both ice and fire, and not just one or the other.

[Ashara Stark]

Good catch Him of Two Faces!

Both houses, the House of the Undying and the House of Black nd White have in common that they deal with death, so may it be that weirwood and ebony represent life and death?

[Happy Ent]

Arya II

Timeline. Difficult. Some events, separated by fuzzy intervals.

A. First, time passes. Stuff happens "every day". Umma prepares lots of different dinners are had.

B. Than Arya gets rid of her stuff (sans Needle) and becomes a novice, the same day as Luco Prestayn's Lady Bright leaves for Gulltown, Duskendale, King's Landing, and Tyrosh. As far as I know, that doesn't help us because we have no other mention of that ship, but maybe we can use this later anyway.

As a novice, Arya begins her study of Braavosi.

C. She waits upon two faceless men, the Squinter and the Fat Fellow. I cannot but assume that we will meet those two again, but as far as I know we haven't yet.

D. Arya begins her face-training the next day.

"The moon turned and turned again". That's at least one month, but less than three. Maybe six weeks.

E. Arya becomes Cat.

Between A and B I assume many days, if not weeks. Let me say two weeks. Then, another week until C+D. Another six weeks until E.

In total, 9 weeks at least. No upper bound—the entire chapter could take four months easily. We will get a useful marker when Cat meets Samwell.

Arboreal perspective

Weirwood and ebony, already discusses upthread. Very nice. They eat at a "carved wooden table", but we get no better description of the sort. Again, Martin is typically sloppy and more interested in the human psyche than types of wood.

Other

Arya: "He should have killed the masters!" KM: "He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one."

Oho! The first Faceless Man brings the gift to the masters, and it sounds super-secret. Alas, the timeframes don't match, otherwise we could assume they were behind the Doom. (But Braavos is old, the FM are older, and the Doom is only a few centuries ago.)

[A wilding]

One sentence that really stood out in this chapter on my reread is where Arya tries out her Braavosi on the Kindly Man:

"Her best Braavosi made him smile".

Except, wait a minute, the Kindly Man is a Faceless Man, and one who only a page or two before had been lecturing Arya on the importance of total control of her face. It seems a safe bet that nothing Arya could say or do would "make" the Kindly Man show any emotion he did not want to show. The Kindly Man choose to smile at Arya's accent.

In fact there is more to it than that. The "Kindly Man" is merely a persona that the FM beneath it is currently wearing, basically just a kind of mask. Arya may think, consciously or unconsciously, that she is building up a rapport or relationship with the Kindly Man, but she is building one up with a mask. The real person, the FM beneath the mask, is not being reached. I find this a chilling thought.

Though this could probably be taken too far. The goals of the FM hiding behind the Kindly Man are probably more or less the same as those of the Kindly Man; to evaluate whether Arya would make a good FM, and if so, to groom her for it. Probably the only manipulation going on is that she is being manoeuvred into being willing to become a FM, perhaps chiefly by a reverse psychology of telling her how hard it is.

All this makes me dubious of the idea that Arya will decide to drop out of her training at some point and use her mad skillz for her own purposes. It seems likely to me that the Kindly Man is many steps ahead of her in considering everything she might do or try to do in the future. For example, I think it is overwhelmingly likely he knows perfectly well that Arya stashed Needle instead of throwing it away, accepting that for the moment she is still partly a Stark. I think that the only realistic chance Arya has of breaking whatever conditioning comes with FM training is in being a Warg while not knowing that she is one. It is possible that the FM have never tried to train a Warg before, and it might trip them up.

[rpthomps]

I was thinking that IF Jon and Arya ever meet again that Needle will become important for Jon in order to identify his half sister.

Arya is offered a glorious life but rejects it. I must ask why? Stubborness? She is very angry at the loss of her family and clings to her past feverently. Going into a new life is tantamount to deliberately forgetting her past. However, the FM demands her to do just that but his kindness seems to allow her to continue REMEMBERING ARYA as she was. Could this be the last test for Arya? If she can surpass this gentleness then she can truly stop being Arya. But what would she become?

I find it odd that Jaquen (spelling, sorry) had a name but no other FM had one. Is this an error?

Also, I am trying to determine which people are still alive in Arya's prayer (which already suits her to be an assasin, that she nightly prays for the deaths of others)

Ser Gregor - dead

Dunsen - ?

Raff - ?

Ser Ilyn - still alive

Ser Meryn - alive

Cersei - alive

Lastle, while reading AGoT, I just got to the part where Arya confesses to throwing rocks at Nymeria to make her run. Since the lives of the direwolves are so intertwined with those of the children, is Arya the victim of someone throwing rocks or hardships at her but for GOOD intentions?

[Maester Cressan]

Lastle, while reading AGoT, I just got to the part where Arya confesses to throwing rocks at Nymeria to make her run. Since the lives of the direwolves are so intertwined with those of the children, is Arya the victim of someone throwing rocks or hardships at her but for GOOD intentions?

The Hound?... Yoren?... Her dancing master (whose name escapes me at this moment).............. I can't think of any others just yet.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

I find it odd that Jaquen (spelling, sorry) had a name but no other FM had one. Is this an error?

Jaqen H'ghar wasn't his true name, no more than Pate is.

[Grant Dempsey]

The "Kindly Man" is merely a persona that the FM beneath it is currently wearing, basically just a kind of mask.

Can we really be certain of that? Faceless Men must have faces truly of their own (they had to have begun life with one, after all), and the "kindly man" has never given a name for himself either, fitting well enough with the "no one" tradition. I don't think it's necessarily just one of the Faceless Man's personas, even if he was acting in other ways at times.

[Happy Ent]

Faceless Men must have faces truly of their own (they had to have begun life with one, after all), and the "kindly man" has never given a name for himself either, fitting well enough with the "no one" tradition.

This can be settled. RealPate, in the Prologue, asks the Alchemist who he is. The answer: "No one. Truly." So there you have him: The unmasked Faceless Man. Jaquen was a just a disguise, a "glamour".