AFFC Reread Project - Jaime

[cteresa]

Thread to discuss Jaime´s PoV chapters. Provisory schedule dates to start such discussion,

Page numbers are from the Uk hardback

2-Jan-06 Jaime 1 page 116 to 130

30-Jan-06 Jaime 2 page 226 to 237

6-Mar-06 Jaime 3 page 391 to 410

20-Mar-06 Jaime 4 page 444 to 460

27-Mar-06 Jaime 5 page 487 to 503

17-Abr-06 Jaime 6 page 561 to 574

8-Mai-06 Jaime 7 page 659 to 671

Will change above if there are any mistakes (please let me know!) or alterations.

[Happy Ent]

Timeline. Jaime's first chapter is still close to Tywin's death. We find him in the evening, standing vigil. "Evensong" just ended—I assume that was the same day as Cersei II, where she participated in the morning service, refused Mace Tyrell, and was refused by Kevan. My timeline for these events is (a month has 28 days for simplicity)

Jan 28 Cersei finds Tywin dead in the morning. Jaime pretends to "look" for Tyrion, goalers are killed

Feb 1 Nothing happens (Cersei claims to have asked Gyles of Rosby, Pycelle and the silent sisters work on Tywin's body, Jaime does some more detective work)

Feb 2 Tywin's body is presented in Baelor's Sept, several ceremonies. Cersei II.

The only flexibility here would be to remove Feb 1, which would make Jan 28 very busy but doable. (For example, Cersei gives orders to kill the two (!) remaining goalers in the morning. Jaime finds those after he talked to Longwaters. This must all happend on the 28th. Longwaters hasn't even had time to scratch Tyrion from the list.) Really the main reason to have the extra day is to give us some breathing space, and Tywin some time to rot.

Using these dates, Jaime's vigil is the night from 2nd to 3rd Feb. He hasn't slept for four days. It sounds like Tywin will be lying there for 7 days and 7 nights, Feb 2 to Feb 8. The funeral ends on Feb 9.

Arboreal perspective. No trees or wooden objects play any significant role in this chapter. Instead, tedious descriptions of metal armour and polished glass, and the ways these lifeless materials reflect or break sunlight. Jaime is as far removed from the solace of the Weirwood stump in Storm as ever. I think that is very important.

Varys planted Shae perspective. This chapter contains the best evidence in favour of the idea that Varys planned Tyrion's escape (a Cersei chapter contains the best evidence against). A flashback tells us that Jaime ambushed Varys in his own quarters. Imagine that! Varys is a trained thief and master spy, who has negotiated the seediest districts of King's Landing for close to two decades, not to mention the cut-throat environment of the Red Keep. Yet he is ambushed by a handless cripple, who even—gods have mercy—sharpened his dagger, with an audible scrape-scrape-scrape, while waiting. I find that impossible to believe.

Instead, as soon as Varys detects the monumentally sloppy attempt at ambushing him, he walks "back" (he might actually have come via secret passage), and approaches noisily from the yard. Jaime hears Varys's footsteps this time, prompting him to stop with the scraping. Varys now lets himself be ambushed, knowing very well why Jaime wants him on this very night. Jaime then "forces" him to secure passage on a ship. We knew this before, but now we have an even more ludicrous timeline: Varys is expected to find such a ship (out of a harbour that we know is in ruin and contains almost no ships at all!) on the very night of Tyrion's escape. Varys, quickly agrees. (Of course. He has had the ship waiting for days, if not weeks.)

Now could we please re-open the Brienne thread?

[Urri]

[...]

Arboreal perspective.

... at least no trees were harmed in the making of this chapter

Varys planted Shae perspective.

[...]

Very good points. Yes, it seems that Varys does indeed allow himself to be "ambushed" by Jaime. If I recall in the earlier books it was mentioned several times how Varys would be able to move soundlessly despite his weight.

But to be honest, that only implies that Varys agrees to leave with Tyrion, and has a means of escape prepared (but this shouldn't surprise anyone). The whole father & son episode might yet be some chance meeting.

Now could we please re-open the Brienne thread?

Any idea why it was closed? Coudn't see any reason for that inside the thread.

[rpthomps]

Jaime, I like him as a character. Very complicated, like his brother. A villain by reputation whose past deeds seem understandable since GRRM took his POV in SoS. It's interesting that even though GRRM picks up Cersei's POV in this book, I still struggle to empathize with her motives. Jaime's story on the other hand show a GOOD young man struggling through a harsh world, his family's plotting, a mad king, a romantic dream and that how despite trying to do good, he still comes across as being the BAD guy. Wonderful!

Another perspective of Jaime, before he lost everyone's trust, he was COMPLETELY trusted, even by the paranoid King Aerys who thought Tywin would turn on him. We understand this when Jaime reminisces about the battle before the Trident. The king kept Jaime close. Jaime was at one time the epitome of trust and loyalty. Is it no wonder why the world hates him?

We also know that Jaime is superstitious and a little fearful of the gods. He won’t say or do what he wants to with Cersei within the Sept or nearby his dead father. “..not here in front of the gods…†he thinks.

Other interesting tidbits…

Clock is divided into hours, possibly named after animals. Jaime is met by his sister in the hour of the wolf.

Lastly, interesting to note that Joffrey more than likely abused Tommen. Tommen reveals that he used to go within himself with Joffrey around. He cannot finish his sentence because his mother interrupts. As usual she fails to listen to her children and instead explains how SHE was embarrassed.

[LadySoftheart]

We also know that Jaime is superstitious and a little fearful of the gods. He won’t say or do what he wants to with Cersei within the Sept or nearby his dead father. “..not here in front of the gods…†he thinks.

rpthomps, will get into deeper analysis of the chapter later, but I wanted to say here that this reluctance is a symptom of the new Jaime - he had no qualms about screwing Cersei on the altar of the Mother in front of Joffrey's dead body, let's not forget So it may be less religious scruple and more a) desire not to do this in front of a potentially sizeable audience (this is the Great Sept of Baelor, not the small and secluded Royal Sept) and desire not to do this in front of his father.

Jaime's still struggling with his post-maiming identity too, isn't he? He thinks that he's always been dedicated to the Warrior and now...? And he starts to pray for Brienne and stops because he doesn't really know how or whether the Father will listen to him.

[Geoff]

I don't find the speculation on the "Varys planted Shea" perspective to be at all compelling from anything I've read so far. I'll wait for more evidence. And I do think it is possible for Varys to have been ambushed by someone with access to his room, though perhaps unlikely.

This chapter and the Brienne chapter (wonder why her thread is closed) provide interesting historical data. For this chapter, we get more details about the slaying of Aerys.

The horrible, growing stench from Tywin's body doesn't seem to cause anyone to be accused or blamed for the way his body was prepared. Did I miss something regarding this? Qyburn was told by Cercei when they met that he would "lose more that a chain" if he failed her in getting the body ready for the silent sisters. It seems that the smell is worse that would ordinarily be expected, judging by the reactions of those who experience it (the poison arrow speculation seems plausible). I guess that Cercei now finds Qyburn to be useful, perhaps someone who could replace Pycelle, especially for certain duties, and so nothing is said about any failure he may be responsible for in this regard. This despite the fact that the stench cause Cercei to be embarrassed by the reaction to it of many, including the Tommen.

[Happy Ent]

In the last Tyrion chapter, he almost stumbled over a sleeping turnkey when Jaime freed him from his cell. "Is he dead?" "Asleep. The other three as well."

That makes 4 sleeping turnkeys in Storm, none of whom seems to be Rugen, yet we don't see them all again in Feast. Longwaters gives us a long explanation of how the cells are staffed. Either there is a mistake or I am missing something obvious.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Jaime apparently believes that Tyrion actually killed Joffrey. It does make some sense from Jaime's POV - after all if Tyrion told truth about CCersei why would he lie about Joff?

Jaime says he didn't sleep for a week. He is apparently set on punishing himself for his part in causing Tywin's death.

It didn't occur to me that Varys purposefully let Jaime trap him, but it is certainly possible. The whole business with Tyrion's escapeand Tywin's death is rather fishy and certainly belongs in to-be-explained category.

Jaime speaks with Cersei and once again refuses to be Hand. He gives her good advice and she actually listens to him whilst she refused to listen to Kevan. Apparently she didn't yet give up on Jaime at this point.

Ser Rennifer is funny, but it does seem strange that they have so few prisoners in the dungeons. We also get another confirmation that Rugen was Varys. He apparently spent quite a lot time in the dungeons. Another point which doesn't seem very convincing to me.

We are treated to another show of Cersei tormenting Tommen. Poor boy. And yes, it is once again confirmed that Joffrey abused him.

[A wilding]

As said already, in this chapter we learn for certain that Varys played the part of Rugen the undergaoler; that the disguise that he used periodically in the earlier books of the series was his Rugen disguise; and that no one knew who Rugen really was (though there is a half hint that LF might have known, in that some of the chief undergaoler's reports went to the Master of Coin). There might be inferences that can be drawn from all this. For example in AGoT Varys visited Ned in the cells in his Rugen disguise, which implies that Cersei did not know about the visit; and thus that Varys really wanted Ned to agree to the terms Cersei was going to propose and thought that there was some risk that Cersei on her own might fail to convince him.

Personally I thought that Jaime was being selfish in refusing Cersei's repeated offer of the job of Hand. He would after all be reasonably good at it now, and is probably the only person capable of keeping her in check. Witness how he manages an accommodation between her and Mace Tyrell. But he is too concerned with keeping his distance from her.

I imagine that the smell of Tywin's corpse, discussed before, is some sort of metaphor for Tywin's life. We have a grand imposing facade that is nonetheless unable to hide that there is something rotten beneath it.

We also have a good deal of crow feasting imagery in this chapter, culminating in a crow screaming right after Lord Tyrell drops another hint that he would like the job of Hand.

[LadySoftheart]

Personally I thought that Jaime was being selfish in refusing Cersei's repeated offer of the job of Hand.

Heh! So Jaime can't win - because if he'd agreed to be Hand, it'd be all about how he's totally renouncing all his vows to stay away from Cersei and not be anything more than the LC and yadda yadda. Anyway, we know from what the people at the inn say in front of Brienne that Jaime's ceratinly not trusted by anyone outside his family anyway - they're all asking who will rule them after Tywin's death and someone mentions the Kingslayer and then it's all *spit* *spit* "not that oathbreaker", right? So I fail to see how he would have been effective other than in aggravating Cersei more by not doing what she wanted - yes, Tyrion also aggravated Cersei, but he at least had (or thought he had) Tywin's power behind him. With Jaime, I suspect it would have just lent further countenance to the rumors about Tommen's parentage and it's not like they need any more of that.

Also, if Jaime had accepted Cersei's offer, then Kevan would have been equally offended, I suspect - and it's not like Cersei would have actually listened or let Jaime have any actual power as Hand - from the previous Cersei chapter, it's very clear that she believes her word as Regent is the only thing that counts and she wants someone compliant as her Hand - Jaime wouldn't have been that person (and Cersei already shortsightedly countermands his suggestion that Tommen ride out to Tywin's funeral and show his largesse to the smallfolk.) In fact, the best Hand for Cersei would have been Tarly or Rowan, as Kevan suggested, once Cersei refused to appoint him.

Anyway, I question whether it is even possible for him to be LC of the Kingsguard AND Hand? Wouldn't there be, you know, huge conflicts in duties if the Hand is supposed to be there doing the king's business and the LC of the Kingsguard is supposed to be guarding the King? (Tywin sent Tyrion to be Hand-for-the-nonce so he could fight Joffrey's battles against Stannis and the Starks, after all.)

Re: the three versus four jailers: could this not be one of those extremely rare occasions when even the great Martin (and I really mean that unironically) slips up and his editors don't catch it? (I mean, in Storm Brienne tells Jaime she is her father's only child, NOT that she had siblings who all died and she's the only one left - that's a whole different connotation; and further, Jaime remembers being knighted by Arthur Dayne on the field of battle, and in Feast, he remembers his all-night vigil and Ser Arthur Dayne knighting him at dawn (with Dawn!) and I don't think that's evidence of some weird conspiracy ) Sometimes, and inevitably, in a work of this size and complexity, there are things that just don't quite add up right!

[Miryana Storm]

Anyway, I question whether it is even possible for him to be LC of the Kingsguard AND Hand? Wouldn't there be, you know, huge conflicts in duties if the Hand is supposed to be there doing the king's business and the LC of the Kingsguard is supposed to be guarding the King? (Tywin sent Tyrion to be Hand-for-the-nonce so he could fight Joffrey's battles against Stannis and the Starks, after all.)

I think I remember seeing somewhere that Ryam Redwyne was a great LC and a bad Hand; the latter seems to require more administrative ability and long-term planning, things even famous knights aren't necessarily very good at. Jaime was right to refuse Cersei and try to be good at something he's more suited for. Maybe he could have done good if she'd listened to him, but Cersei doesn't seem to care much about his advice so that benefit wouldn't be there. Like LadySoftheart said, it'd just further rumours about Tommen's parentage and look rather bad in the eyes of the smallfolk.

[A wilding]

::Shrugs:: Well I offered "Hand Jaime" as an opinion. But to defend it:

As Miryana says, there is precedent for a LC to be Hand, so it is possible. Nor would it be any less moral than the role he does actually accept as Tommen's LC and the subduer of the Riverlands. He does not have to start sleeping with Cersei again after all!

There would certainly have been tension between Hand Jaime and Regent Cersei, but I would see him as either coming out on top, or at worst resigning, at which point he would be little worse off. Indeed, to anticipate somewhat, he has in any case decided by the end of AFfC that he needs to do something about removing her from power.

He certainly would not have left Kevan with nothing to do but brood resentfully, but would have brought him back on board, probably as castellan of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.

It is a point that he would not be popular, but Hands do not necessarily need to be popular, that is King Tommen's and Queen Margaery's job. Indeed Jaime could take the flak for necessary hard tough decisions and then retire once Westeros has been brought back on an even keel.

[Geoff]

As said already, in this chapter we learn for certain that Varys played the part of Rugen the undergaoler;

Wow! I missed that one, but then I have only read a small portion of what's on this board. Thanks for mentioning it! Now I have to do some re-reads in this area.

Also, if Jaime had accepted Cersei's offer, then Kevan would have been equally offended, I suspect - and it's not like Cersei would have actually listened or let Jaime have any actual power as Hand - from the previous Cersei chapter, it's very clear that she believes her word as Regent is the only thing that counts and she wants someone compliant as her Hand - Jaime wouldn't have been that person (and Cersei already shortsightedly countermands his suggestion that Tommen ride out to Tywin's funeral and show his largesse to the smallfolk.) In fact, the best Hand for Cersei would have been Tarly or Rowan, as Kevan suggested, once Cersei refused to appoint him.

I've enjoy reading your posts LadyS. Your opinions seem to resonate with mine often. I agree here, certainly. I think Jaime would have been nuts to agree to be the Hand. They would have been at each other's throats every time they disagreed on policy, which would have been often! She is an idiot! Let her continue to bury herself. Why should Jaime let here take him down with her?

[Ashara Stark]

In the last Tyrion chapter, he almost stumbled over a sleeping turnkey when Jaime freed him from his cell. "Is he dead?" "Asleep. The other three as well."

That makes 4 sleeping turnkeys in Storm, none of whom seems to be Rugen, yet we don't see them all again in Feast. Longwaters gives us a long explanation of how the cells are staffed. Either there is a mistake or I am missing something obvious.

In Cersei I Boros Blont mentions two sleeping turnleys, too:

"One of the gaolers has gone missing too. Rugen, his name was. Two other men we found asleep."

Jaime's information on the number of turnkeys came from Varys, but I cannot find a sound reason of why he must have lied about the number of men guarding the black cells. Lady Softheart, you may be right and it could be only that GRMM didn't remember the exact number of turnkeys mentioned in ASoS.

On Jaime waiting for Varys in his chambers and surprising him, that is also what Tyrion did Tyrion II in ASoS. In both cases it seems to me that Varys is surprised of finding them there and what Jaime remembers of their conversation makes me think that Varys didn't wanted to free Tyrion, but I could be wrong.

The vigil is supposed to last for 7 days and 7 nights, but at the end of this chapter Jaime says that it is done because of the state of Tywin's corpse, even though not 7 days have passed.

Longwaters claims to descend from one of Baleor the Blessed's wives (although Jaime doesn't believe the tale). Daemon Blacfyre was the son of Daena Targaryen, and he was conceived while she was locked there. It seems Bealor's wives weren't so well-guarded in the Maidenvault as he expected them to be

[The hairy bear]

It seems Bealor's wives weren't so well-guarded in the Maidenvault as he expected them to be

Perhaps Longwaters' ancestor was also a gaoler

[Jon Targaryen]

“I have always abhorred the sight of my own blood.†LOL

Rhaegar had a voice of “iron tones.†Contrasts with his apparent beauty.

Rhaegar said “when this battle’s done.†Does he mean the war as well? He must.

There were three men in the cells that Ned gave to the Night’s Watch. Presumably, these are Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. So Ned was around when Jaqen was in the cell. I’ve read some convoluted ways of getting around it but this puts the Jaqen=Syrio theory to rest for me.

“All knights must bleed.†Arthur Dayne continues to speak only memorable lines.

Jaime hesitates to kiss “in front of the gods†when he had sex with her “in front of the gods†in ASOS. Weird.

[LadySoftheart]

Jaime hesitates to kiss “in front of the gods†when he had sex with her “in front of the gods†in ASOS. Weird.

I don't think it's weird - I think it's a sign of his changing even since he's returned to Kings' Landing. He turned Cersei away from his quarters after all and he's turned down her offer to be Hand (as discussed above - which suggests to me that Jaime's - unlike Tywin and Cersei - isn't particularly interested in wielding power for its own sake) and unlike what Cersei thought in her first POV chapter, he hasn't come to her secretly to comfort her "later."

Or, it could just be that for practical reasons, the Great Sept of Baelor is a lot less private than the royal sept where Cersei was praying over Joffrey's body and Jaime figures passionately kissing his sister on the mouth when he's holding vigil over his father's body might make tongues wag a wee bit

[Jon Targaryen]

Or, it could just be that for practical reasons, the Great Sept of Baelor is a lot less private than the royal sept where Cersei was praying over Joffrey's body and Jaime figures passionately kissing his sister on the mouth when he's holding vigil over his father's body might make tongues wag a wee bit

I don't think so. I'd say it was private enough at the time Cersei showed up.

[LadySoftheart]

I don't think so. I'd say it was private enough at the time Cersei showed up.

Heh! Yes, I know. I was just joking. I think it's mostly a sign of how much Jaime has changed even in the two weeks (?) or so he's been back in King's Landing. And how his feelings for Cersei have changed as well.

It occurs to me that in Storm of Swords, he thinks that Cersei never comes to him - she waits for him to come to her; and this is the second time she's come to him and he rejects her. Interesting.

[A wilding]

JAIME II

Not being Jaime's greatest fan, I enjoyed seeing him made to squirm a little in the first half of this chapter, it is a little taster for his meeting with the Blackfish later.

Kevan knows about Jaime and Cersei, and thinks that it is still going on. Given this, it is understandable that he believes Jaime complicit in Cersei's decision to put him out to grass. Jaime is taken aback when Kevan asks if he is threatening him, but why should he be? He has already shown himself ready to murder children to keep the secret, why should he baulk at threatening an uncle who knows it?

Unlike some people, I think that Jaime's frequent repetition of "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know" is an effective technique for showing just how deeply Tyrion's little barb has lodged into him. Once again Jaime is not being truthful with himself when he claims to dismiss the thought of Lancel + Cersei. He knows that Lancel only got religion after being wounded.

"Jousting was three quarters horsemanship". A possible hint there as to the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

As I think has been mentioned before, there seems to be a slight continuity problem with Jaime's recollection of the burning of Lord Chelsted. Chelsted was executed because he objected to Aerys plans to destroy KL with wildfire. In ASoS Jaime strongly implies that he was the only KG to know of these plans "my sworn brothers being away". Yet Ser Jon Darry was in KL the night after Chelsted was burnt. So we must now assume that Chelsted's execution was before Rhaegar went off to the Trident. This implies that Jaime had the option to tell at least some of his sworn brothers about the wildfire, or indeed Rhaegar himself, but did not do so. It is also an interesting question as to why Chelsted did not try to enlist Rhaegar in his attempts to dissuade Aerys from his plans.

The chapter ends with Jaime thinking of Ser Criston Cole the Kingmaker. The thought of deposing Cersei is beginning to form in Jaime's mind. Amusingly, some in Westeros believe that Ser Criston deposed Rhaenyra out of spite when their love affair went sour.