AFFC Reread Project - Jaime

[Grant Dempsey]

Don't forget that Lancel joined that knight order (Poor fellows or something). I consider them something like Kingsguard of the Septon.

The Poor Fellows are the smallfolk and commoners' equivalent to the Warrior's Sons (which is comprised of knights). It's a large part of the Faith Militant, not strictly a Septonsguard.

[Mind Elemental]

Jaime IV

- When first looking around the yard of Darry, Jaime thinks, "Too many [sparrows]. And too many Freys as well." Foreshadowing, perhaps, of the rift between the Lannisters and the Freys that develops in Jaime's chapters?

- Many a one-liner directed at Lancel: "He and Ser Bonifer should get on well;" "Maybe he is praying for his cock to harden," (this one always cracks me up); and so on.

- Once again, Jaime feels uncomfortable at having an erection over a woman other than Cersei. This time, it's Pia; last time, it was Brienne at Harrenhal. And where Brienne made him think he had been away from Cersei for too long, Pia makes him think, "Remember your vows." He's changing, indeed...

- I love Jaime's exchanges with Gatehouse Ami. He thinks of the Smiling Knight as "the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big but twice as mad," something that, in light of his thinking of himself as closer to the Smiling Knight than Arthur Dayne (end of ASOS), reaffirms his self-awareness at that moment, one of Martin's finest. Jaime also gives us another, less flattering perspective on Merrett (a bully who got his comeuppance).

- Hugo Vance is either "brooding on the mysteries of life", or "napping between courses". This always amuses me.

- Ami really does live up to her reputation -- she seems to make a subtle pass at Jaime, going so far as to caress his golden hand. She's also a ditz, though; I love the way in which she refers to the "Smiley Knight."

- His meeting with Lancel is also great. We find Jaime as impious as ever, and irreverent towards Baelor the Blessed: "The realm would have been better served if he had closed his eyes and fucked [his wife]. I know enough history to know that." And speaking of the f-word, this is where he finds out that Tyrion was, indeed, telling the truth about Lancel, something he was in denial about only a few chapters earlier...

- Finally, Lancel's dream never struck me as prophetic or especially meaningful -- just as the product of a guilty conscience. Oh well, hopefully we won't have to wait too long to find out which one of us is right.

[Jon Targaryen]

Jaime 4

The Darrys are old blood.

I guess only the Rock compares to Harrenhal.

Little mistake here. There was no second Aenys.

I didn’t know Arhur Dayne did all that. He sounds like a worthy commander as well as a great fighter.

I didn’t even notice this mention of Daena in AFFC the first time around. Martin has his notes it would seem.

Jaime once again says he would have killed Robert. He has changed since then, thank the gods.

[Happy Ent]

JAIME V

Lovely chapter, introducing two immediately likeable characters, aunt Genna and Daven. Lots and lots to talk about. I will stick to my usual perspectives, though: counting days and spotting wood.

Timeline

At least two days after leaving Harrenhal, probably more like a week. (Addam Marbrand's outriders found some hung hanged men "the day before last".)

Arboreal perspective

This leads us to the Crackpot Theory of the Week: Daven Lannister is an Ent. Actually, he is a Faceless Ent, the most dangerous branch of that sect, who can change appearances at will.

The evidence? Well, first there is his personality: friendly, down-to-earth, witty, competent, loyal, good to his friends, scornful of his enemies, probably very dangerous in combat, and really good in bed. But the clincher comes at the single moment where he forgets his disguise, where his cover slips, where for a moment he reveals what is under the cunning glamour:

I like a bit of hair. The nights grow colder, and a little foliage helps to keep your face warm.

Convinced?

[Happy Ent]

Timeline for final Jaime chapters

(moved to Timeline thread)

[Barba]

I have question. Brienne VIII chapter should happen after Jamie VII (17th or 18th may). I got no idea how do you plan to do this. It is the middle of may, and according to you, IIRC Brienne V was in middle of march in Maidenpool.

From Arya chapter in SOS, it took her 6-7 days from crossings inn to saltpants, so you should put put 10 days maximum between Brienne VI and Brienne VII.

If you put that Brienne was healing for a month(wich is too much IMO. she could barley move if she was laying for a month), it would still mean 20 days from maidenpool to Quietisle (what is still to much, even if you consider that they were stoping for confessions with Marlbrand).

So, do you think you could stretch timelines for brienne chapters a little

[sh_wulff]

Daven Lannister is an Ent. Actually, he is a Faceless Ent,

:rofl:

umm.. tea streaming out your nose and spraying on the keyboard is NOT aa good look

[Happy Ent]

I have question. Brienne VIII chapter should happen after Jamie VII (17th or 18th may). I got no idea how do you plan to do this.

There is no way I can do that. (See me comment about the latest Brienne chapter. Her timeline is headed for disaster.)

The reason for counting days in the Jaime timeline is exactly so that I can get the tightest possible Jaime timeline, preferably all the way from Tywin's death. I will have to revisit all of that and squeeeze.

(Difficult: "The pyromancers had been brewing wildfire for a fortnight" before Tommen's Wedding. The Braavosi enjoy has been pestering Gyles seven times or something like that—there are weeks between all the Cersei chapters. Then Jaime leaves and goes sightseeing in the Riverlands. Weeks and weeks.

Brienne, at the same time, goes Duskendale->Maidenpool (days), trip to the smuggler's cove (4 weeks if I am really, really generous), back to Maidenpool, Quiet Isle, Saltpans, Inn. And it always says "They left the next day" or something. Brienne is always in a hurry (her first chapter tells us: she will not rest). Jaime is always slow.

No way I can make this work.

Same goes for Sam and Arya. They are at least a month out of sync. All your help would be appreciated.

[Barba]

OK, I think I might do something. It took arya 6-7 days from crossroads in to saltpants. Now, if you consider distances, they matches those from KL to Rosby, and those from Rosby to Duskendale.

So you could put Brienne I at 18 february

I don't think it is said anywhere that she traveled from rosby to duskendale 2 days. If you consider distances, it could be another 7 days: Brienne II: 25 th february.

You put 6 days between maidenpool and duskendale. I would put 10. So Brienne arives at maidenpool at 7 of March and leaves early in the morning (IIRC) at the same day that Rape of saltpants occures. we could presume it hapened in the afternoon, and Brienne was away from maidenpool at the time. Brienne III: March 7.

You put 9 days between leaving Maidenpool and killing shugwell. It could work Brienne IV: march 15

Another 10 days: they are back in maidenpool at March 25: Brienne V

If you consider map distances, Quiet isle is at least 8-9 days from maidenpool. If you consider they stopped with marbrand 3-4 times for confessions of smallfolk, you can stretch it to 11 days.

so we have April 5: Brienne VI

They leave quietisle at april 6.

They left Saltpants same day and in 7 days got to crossroads: Brienne VII: april 13 (considering the events that happened in the evening, it was probably friday 13th).

Ser ryman was killed may 7th days after 6 miles south of fairmarket.

Brienne VII we can put at May 8-9th (part in the cave)

It means 25 days of healing. It could work. she dosen't complain on her broken arm, so it probably means it healed, and it takes about 15 days for an arm to heal, and another 10 for therapy to stretch the muscles (we can assume jene knew how to do this).

P.S. this was the best i could do. Right now, by my teory, there was no way Ryman could get to fairmarket that fast, only if he traveed by boat at night, and another 1,5 day at foot. so if we assume he did this, and it it possible because there was 15-20 people with him.

This was the best I could do.

[Happy Ent]

(Maybe this should go into the timeline thread for later reference. Could you repost your message there and delete it here? Then I will do the same.)

[Barba]

How do I delete post?

[Mind Elemental]

Despite my tardiness in commenting, this is another of my favourite chapters. Seeing a trend? Nonetheless, though it may be a cool chapter, you guys have covered most of it already. I'll note the following:

- Genna reminiscing about Tywin adds a bit more depth to the Lannister clan. Tywin is still portrayed as a hardass, but Genna saw him in a more sympathetic light than we usually get, and this is the first time we've gotten any details about Tygett's personality. (I think this is also the first time we get detail about Gerion, but I could be wrong.) For all Tywin's sins, I have to like the thought of the ten-year-old Tywin standing up to Walder Frey.

- Daven and Genna are open in their contempt for the Freys, especially Ryman and Emmon. The Freys really can't live the Red Wedding down, even to their allies: Devan says about his proposed Frey bride, "I'll wed and bed my stoat. I know what happened to Robb Stark."

- By now, Jaime's subconscious is taking the "Moon Boy" part literally, as witnessed in his dream.

- Final comment directly related to the chapter: I have to laugh at Devan's crack about Jaime joining the Kingsguard to escape Lysa. We find out that Young Jaime (even when he was too young to be that interested in girls) considered Catelyn "more interesting" than Lysa... wouldn't that be a neat hypothetical pairing? The fact that Jaime idolised the Blackfish is also interesting -- it's a little sad to consider how Jaime went from the Arthur Dayne/Blackfish wannabe to a man his one-time role model despises.

Happy Ent, upthread you likened Cersei to Circe, and said Jaime is on an Odyssey back to Riverrun. Perhaps, though, his ultimate destination is Casterly Rock? After all, he was in Riverrun in ACOK and arrives there again without incident in AFFC. In contrast, for all his life, Cersei indirectly kept him away from the Rock through their affair.

[Happy Ent]

Perhaps, though, his ultimate destination is Casterly Rock?

I have mulled this over myself. I believe you are right.

[Jon Targaryen]

Daven seems like a normal guy. Competent. About what I expected.

Are the Riverlands turning into a hotbed of R’hllorism?

Apparently, there was a rebellion against Aegon’s sons.

Ominous ending to the chapter

Casterly Rock was originally supposed to feature in AFFC.

[rpthomps]

Jaime thinks of the loss of his hand more than the death of his father.

Tarbeck Hall crashed down on Lady Ellyn? What is the significance of this?

I like the line at the end, "Tyrion is Tywin's son."

Raff the Sweetling is still alive.

[Happy Ent]

Raff the Sweetling is still alive.

Speaking of Raff, I absolutely adore GRRM sticking to his POV approach. If we never had had any Arya chapters, Raff would appear to us as a competent, trustworthy soldier, possibly one of the few normal individuals in Gregor's posse. Jaime relies on him quite a lot, sends him to lead other soldiers. The washerwoman tourney is positively endearing and show us some good-natured, harmless (if drunken and naked) fun among the foot soldiers.

Never does GRRM give us a tiny hint about Raff's "true" nature. No "shifty eyes".

So our assessment of Raff based only on the Jaime chapters would be completely different than what Arya would have to say. This, of course, is how humans behave in real life (and, especially, how they are perceived in different contexts) and rings extremely true. Speaking of Raff's "true" character does not even make sense. Is he a trustworthy and perfectly reasonable common soldier? Or is he a sadistic torturer? He is both, of course. As we all are.

I can think of no clearer example of this GRRM principle than Raff.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

On another topic:

Jaime referring to Brandon Stark as "some Northern boy, the heir of Winterfell" doesn't ring true to me. Obviously, he wouldn't have known Brandon at the time, but after the whole Lyanna incident . . .

[Mind Elemental]

Seconded re: Raff, Happy Ent. Does anyone remember what exactly Raff did to get onto Arya's list, though? I'm afraid I've forgotten.

(Glad that someone knowledgeable agrees with me about Casterly Rock, though!)

HimOfTwoFaces, I read that as how he thought of Brandon at the time.

[Grant Dempsey]

Seconded re: Raff, Happy Ent. Does anyone remember what exactly Raff did to get onto Arya's list, though? I'm afraid I've forgotten.

He stuck a spear through the throat of one of her friends, when Gregor Clegane's men had first found and captured them, in A Clash of Kings. Lommy was the boy's name, I think.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

HimOfTwoFaces, I read that as how he thought of Brandon at the time.

I realize that, but then he refers to Lysa as "poor Lysa" in the next sentence, which is how he sees her now.

I know what Martin was trying to do. It just didn't work for me. It would have seemed more natural in my mind if he'd just said "Brandon Stark." Not that it's majorly important or anything.