JCoj Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 This is a magical force. You have no idea just how much of an advatage letos power was. Also, he could live for thousands of years, kinda magical too. I have some idea of how much an adavntage Leto's power was, yet one of his goals was to make that power useless (Siona). Presceince, however, is not considered a 'magical' force (at least by me). There are several instances where people do get glimpses of the future (sometimes in waking dreams, sometimes in sleeping dreams), hence it is not really 'magical' because it is an actual force, and maybe we can eventually figure it out. As for living for thousands of years, well, he wasn't human. Different species, different lifespan. Not much magic there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 I have some idea of how much an adavntage Leto's power was, yet one of his goals was to make that power useless (Siona). Presceince, however, is not considered a 'magical' force (at least by me). There are several instances where people do get glimpses of the future (sometimes in waking dreams, sometimes in sleeping dreams), hence it is not really 'magical' because it is an actual force, and maybe we can eventually figure it out. It's magic, It's not an actualy force. Prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCoj Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 It's magic, It's not an actualy force. Prove me wrong. Sigh. I looked it up and I found...nothing. There is simply no evidence to support or refute the claim that prescience is magic. I can't prove you wrong. But the point is moot, because whether or not prescience is magic has no bearing on the unrealistic portryal of Herbert's reality. Had he made it more believable, with better explinations for how things came to be, maybe I would shut up...but since he left it up to the reader to make excuses for how Leto's power was maintained, I say the book(s) sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antares Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Sigh. I looked it up and I found...nothing. There is simply no evidence to support or refute the claim that prescience is magic. I can't prove you wrong. But the point is moot, because whether or not prescience is magic has no bearing on the unrealistic portryal of Herbert's reality. Had he made it more believable, with better explinations for how things came to be, maybe I would shut up...but since he left it up to the reader to make excuses for how Leto's power was maintained, I say the book(s) sucked. Wasn't prescience something like omnipotent intelligence, as opposed to magical clairvoyance? Paul was able to see the entire history of mankind through both patriarchal and matriarchal lines, stretching all the way back to the "adam and eve" of humanity. If you assume that human actions are governed by chemical processes and brain functions, and you are infinitely intelligent, then you can predict how everyone will act, because you will have all the knowledge of the chemical processes that gave birth to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Wasn't prescience something like omnipotent intelligence, as opposed to magical clairvoyance? Paul was able to see the entire history of mankind through both patriarchal and matriarchal lines, stretching all the way back to the "adam and eve" of humanity. If you assume that human actions are governed by chemical processes and brain functions, and you are infinitely intelligent, then you can predict how everyone will act, because you will have all the knowledge of the chemical processes that gave birth to them. Sounds pretty magical to me. To have the kind of processor speed necessary for him to compute that is...well a bit magical. Just like the quantum computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antares Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Sounds pretty magical to me. To have the kind of processor speed necessary for him to compute that is...well a bit magical. Just like the quantum computer. Well the Bene Gesserit were trying to create someone like him for thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Once again i'd like to reiterate that if you guys are going to get bogged down in the semantics, then you cant have your cake and eat it to. You also need to discuss how the large sandowrms are pretty unbelievable, and the funny laser stuff that happens, and the way the ships fly, and the way the spice works and the.... You get the idea. There was FAR FAR FAR FAR less setup for these things, they were just introduced into the plot. Leto and Paul though, they WERE the plot. There was tonnes of setup. Seems weird to get all picky about the thing which was explained the most and forget about those that werent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Well the Bene Gesserit were trying to create someone like him for thousands of years. I read somewhere that to solve the game of Go, our fastest computers would have to have started working before the Big Bang (aka, slightly more than thousands of years. Go is a bit more simplistic than seeing all of human history and the future based on the laws of physics and chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I read somewhere that to solve the game of Go, our fastest computers would have to have started working before the Big Bang (aka, slightly more than thousands of years. Go is a bit more simplistic than seeing all of human history and the future based on the laws of physics and chemistry. You point actually doesnt address the issue at all. It takes computers at one point of time, and sets them off to do the work. It would take computers from one point of the past thousands of years to calculate what computers today can do in seconds. The development of Paul etc etc was ongoing, not a process initiated and never improved on, like the one you presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antares Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I read somewhere that to solve the game of Go, our fastest computers would have to have started working before the Big Bang (aka, slightly more than thousands of years. Go is a bit more simplistic than seeing all of human history and the future based on the laws of physics and chemistry. Well that's the thing with Science Fiction. They have wierd and fantastical things which they try to explain using pseudo-science. It's obviously not plausible in the real world, but what separates it from other genres is not that they are more realistic but that they try to offer an explanation, rather than just saying "it's magic" like fantasy authors do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 The development of Paul etc etc was ongoing, not a process initiated and never improved on, like the one you presented. I thought it went without saying that it's totally magical to think that a human brain could ever process information faster than today's computers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I myself dont need too much of an explanation, Im far more interested with how the characters respond to the challenges of new technology. This is probably why I really despise sci fi which isnt really character driven. Thankfully in most cases its not all about the technology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I thought it went without saying that it's totally magical to think that a human brain could ever process information faster than today's computers. Sure, but I was refuting your 'go' point specifically. If it 'were' possible then as I said, it was an ongoing evolving process. And, we are assuming it is possible in this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oba Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 I have some idea of how much an adavntage Leto's power was, yet one of his goals was to make that power useless (Siona). Presceince, however, is not considered a 'magical' force (at least by me). There are several instances where people do get glimpses of the future (sometimes in waking dreams, sometimes in sleeping dreams), hence it is not really 'magical' because it is an actual force, and maybe we can eventually figure it out. I also looked at Paul's and Leto II's prescience as the ultimate expression of mentat projections (processing probabilities, etc.) In Children of Dune, Duncan-Hayt does something similar when he "foresees" a great deal about the plot by Wensicia Corrino against the twins. As people are saying, in the context of the books it certainly seemed no more or less plausible or implausible than a whole lot of other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 And IIRC, didn't the creation of Paul, while being a product of thousands of years of Bene Gesserit breeding program, also come as a result of use of spice too? which can be a form of "magic" I suppose, but what's magic to someone can also be only what they haven't discovered yet. I thought his abilities awoke when he consumed the water of life. Though, they were inherent in him, of course, or why would the old bat test him with the gom jabbar. Hmm... I'm nearing the end of WoT, so I'm definitely going back and reading the Dune series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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