Eddard lives!

[mormont]

Well, mormont, you made some pretty good points, all of which I shall attempt to disprove. You talk about Varys's motivation for helping Ned. I have made guesses as to what it is, but they are just that: guesses. I hypothesized that he was helping the Targs, but he could just as easily be playing his own game. In the end, Varys's motives are an enigma. No one knows but GRRM. Thus, it is impossible to prove or disprove the theory by invoking Varys's theories.

A non-answer, then? Which means, you have no answer, I'm afraid.

As for Eddard's appearance, allow me to paint you a more vivid picture.

It's not a question of how vivid the picture is. The idea that suffering makes a person impossible to recognise is stretching, and the claim that Ned was unrecognisable is simply invention. The fact is that people clearly did recognise Ned.

Also, consider Eddard's body. Brown hair, medium build... can you think of a more generic body type? Finding someone who looked similar would not be a problem.

Yes, it would. You need someone who looks like Ned, not someone who has brown hair and medium build. I have brown hair and medium build, and so does my brother, but you would never under any circumstances mistake us for each other.

It would not require a lot of coaching.

Yes it would. A commoner doesn't talk, move, or act like a great lord. The act wouldn't stand up for a minute without a lot of preparation.

And, of course, Varys knew the guy would lose his head.

This claim contradicts what we're told in the book, without any supporting evidence.

The plan is uncharacteristically risky for Varys, meaning that the stakes must have been high.

But you're unable to tell us what the stakes are.

Finally, why didn't Ned contact his family? There are several reasons for this. Possibly, he was someone's prisoner. Possibly he tried but never got anywhere (think Arya). Possibly, he was afraid that his presence there would only make things worse. Possibly, he knew that he had to be thought dead for his, or Varys's, or whoever's plan to work. There are many possible reasons.

Only one that makes any sense, though, and that is that he was prevented from doing so. Anything else is completely out of character for Ned.

Seriously, Ned is dead. There is zero possibility that he is alive. It makes no sense on any level that he would be.

If you start to doubt that Ned is dead, you might as well ignore anything that has happened in the books, because none of it is reliably true. At which point you might as well give up reading them, IMO.

[Dycedarg]

I've got it, Eddard is the gravedigger not Sandor! Why didn't I see it before?

Also, consider Eddard's body. Brown hair, medium build... can you think of a more generic body type? Finding someone who looked similar would not be a problem.

This isn't just body type, it's the body type of a very well known individual. I find it extremely hard to believe that Cersei, Joffrey, Sansa, the High Septon etc. would fail to notice the difference. There's something else important you seem to have forgotten. Eddard addresses the crowd before his execution. Do you really think Varys could find someone who not only looks like Eddard but sounds like him as well? I refuse to accept that Sansa, standing right there, could miss the fact that the man they dragged out neither looked nor sounded like her father.

It would not require a lot of coaching. I can imagine the lesson. "Get dragged in, say what I want you to say, get dragged out." Varys probably left out the part where the poor guy loses his head.

It's not a matter of what he says, it's the voice he says it with. He might have been weak but Sansa at the very least should have noticed the difference and thought about it later. No, her thinking the tarred head doesn't look like her father doesn't really count. There are plenty of reasons she might think that which don't involve Not Dead!Ned.

Bran and Rickon also came back from the dead. It seems to me that coming back from the dead is a pretty Stark thing to do.

Technically, no they didn't. They never died in the first place, though GRRM did a pretty good job making us think they did for a chapter. Rob died and he stayed dead. Ned's dead baby.

[Frozen Fire]

It would be almost impossible to recognize Ned in his current emaciated, disheveled, pained state. As long as the replacement was in much the same sad state (a condition not hard to come by on the streets of King's Landing), it would be hard to tell the difference between true and fake Ned. However, it still might be possible to recognize him if they were close, but he was described as raised on a podium, and thus fairly far from them.

Ned was fairly far from Arya when he was beheaded, yes. But Sansa, Joffrey, Cersei, members of the Kingsguard and whoever else they had with them were right there on the steps of Baelor's Sept with Ned as he was brought forward. Sansa falls to her knees and begs Joff for mercy for her father IIRC, at which point Joff gives the order to behead Eddard? I'm sure Sansa would recognise her own father, nevermind Cersei recognising him, or Joffrey, or the Kingsguard.

If Harwin can recognise Arya after she's had her hair cut off, dressed in rags, filthy, underfed and pretending to be a boy, I'm sure Sansa could recognise Ned after a couple of days in the black cells.

Someone also asked how Varys paid Ilyn to keep silent. He didn't. Ilyn's lack of speech paid for that.

Payne cannot speak, but he would have had ample means of making himself understood. Shaking his head, grabbing "fake ned" and showing his face to Cersei, for a start.

I will openly admit that I have no idea where Eddard is being kept. On a guess, though, I would say he is with Illyrio. It is known that, at this time Illyrio and Varys were talking about how to help Viserys (he was not dead yet) return to the Iron Throne. Recall that Arya witnessed the two of them talking in Game when she got lost cat hunting. The motive Varys has for wanting a Targaryen back on the throne is unknown. But whatever the motive, giving Eddard to Illyrio would be a strong tactical advantage for the Targ side.

Ned was instrumental in the downfall of House Targaryen during the War of the Userper. He does not want the Lannisters in power, but that doesn't mean he has now become a Targaryen loyalist willing to lend his expertise to Danaerys. Ignoring the gaping holes in your theory up to this point, unless something momentous happened to make him support a Targaryen re-invasion of Westeros, he would be with Illyrio by force. And what would be the point? He's not going to support the Targaryen invasion at any cost if he's being held against his will, and surely Varys would know this. It would be a rather pointless exercise.

I will openly admit that the Bran-Rickon dream is the single greatest flaw in my theory. However, I would just like to point out that Arya also saw what she deemed incontrovertible evidence that her mother was dead in a dream. How'd that work out? Wasn't it The Reader who said history repeats itself?

You're also forgetting Theon's dream where Lyanna, Ned and Lord Rickard appear to him after the swords are removed from Lyanna and Rickard's tombs at Winterfell. At least I believe Ned appeard in this dream - I honestly can't remember.

[Phoenix]

I will openly admit that the Bran-Rickon dream is the single greatest flaw in my theory. However, I would just like to point out that Arya also saw what she deemed incontrovertible evidence that her mother was dead in a dream. How'd that work out? Wasn't it The Reader who said history repeats itself?

Not to nitpick the point, but, in all real senses of the word, Catelyn is dead. Stoneheart is not Catelyn. She may remember being Catelyn, but I don't think it's valid to think of her as the same person. (we can argue this in one of the 10,000 Catelyn threads.)

And in Rickon and Bran's dreams, the specifically say that Ned was "sad" and "he's coming home now, like he promised." Arya's dream is not the same.

Don't get me wrong, I mourn Ned with you, but I think we've got to accept his death as simply the actions of Joffrey's everchanging whims.

[The Pita]

In fact, when I first read the line about a returning character I kept chanting "Eddard, Eddard, Eddard, Eddard" internally.

However, if you want undeniable proof, check the spoiled Asha chapter for ADwD. Sorry, but it is not Just so.

[MTGAP]

lol

So let me get this straight. Varys paid an eddard look alike to go lie to a crowd and subsequently get their head chopped off?!

this is crazy

Varys probably convinced the guy that his head wouldn't get lopped off, and he would just confess his sins and get to leave.

[Daeric]

Eddard Lives!........in our hearts.

Neds dead Babe

[Atreides]

If Eddard comes back, I doubt it will be the same physical Eddard that left Winterfell...maybe something with the Old Gods and/or other magic or something, but I don't think he'll be making a physical reappearance.

[Daeric]

Obi-wan style?

[Aerys]

or jesus christ style.with a vengenance to kill.

[The Bastard of Godsgrace]

One of your original reasons for Eddard to come back was that Grrm was bringing back a retired PoV, you also said that it couldnt be Cat, because he said that she wouldnt have another PoV.

Well since she had died and been ressurected, she is no longer Catheryn. She is now Lady StoneHeart.

Just a thought

[Skid]

I can't believe some of you are taking this seriously.

This is the funniest crackpot theory i've ever seen on these boards, and believe me there were quite a few nutters out there

[Quoth]

Don't get me wrong. I liked Ned. But if Eddard comes back, I will personally lead an international bondfire to burn all copies of the series.

[Sijjvra Visz]

[Ned's dead. GRRM has proven thusly that the noble (if completely oblivious) and good don't always win or survive. And that's part of the reason I love the series. If Ned comes back and saves the day , I will be really bummed out.

[redcandle17]

Have thought, though, how cool it would be if his soul has become part of the weirwood web and but can comment from there. Didn't he somehow appear to Arya in the God's Wood? I've always had a feeling that the weirwoods know more than they are letting on in general (and weir could be the GRRM for were, werewoods, as in werewolf, as in manwolf). Another admittedly crackpot theory

That's a cruel fate. Watching Sansa being beaten and perved on by grown men, watching Arya at the village by the God's Eye and then watching her become a stone cold killer, watching Robb commit the huge mistake known as Jeyne Westerling and watching the Red Wedding - it's a cruel thing to wish on a character. There's something too unappealing about a naive grown man for Ned to ever be one of my favorites, but he was a good man and I wouldn't wish this on him.

[Crow's Eye]

If Ned is alive, it will ruin his character, cheapen his death, destroy the very real motivation for the War of the Five Kings, and retroactively destroy the first real shock any of us encountered in this series.

He has served his purpose. There's really nothing left for him to do.

[The_BlauerDragon]

If Ned is alive, it will ruin his character, cheapen his death, destroy the very real motivation for the War of the Five Kings, and retroactively destroy the first real shock any of us encountered in this series.

He has served his purpose. There's really nothing left for him to do.

~Who's war is this?

It's Ned's.

~Where's Ned?

Ned's dead baby, Ned's dead...

[The Wolf Maid]

I believe that Eddard not only lives, but will be the returning POV for Dance. I personally don't trust GRRM to ever act predictably. He admitted that one of the POVs for Dance would be one that was "retired." The only candidates for this are Theon, Catelyn, and Eddard. GRRM said that Cat would never have a POV again, and Eddard is dead (or is he?), so it would appear that Theon was the only possible choice. So why didn't he just say Theon? Perhaps because it is not going to be Theon. Hmm...

I think I'm going to go somewhere and cry.

Ned is dead, dammit! this isn't a soap opera, where people who die can just walk back from the dead.

There are already too many undead in ASoIaF. No need to add Ned to it.

[The Pita]

UnNed and UnCatelyn 4eva! LUV! OMG OMG OMG!

[/fangirlism]

I've found the reason why this is moot.

[Benjen Snow]

[Ned's dead. GRRM has proven thusly that the noble (if completely oblivious) and good don't always win or survive. And that's part of the reason I love the series. If Ned comes back and saves the day , I will be really bummed out.

Well said thank you. If we see Ned's shade it may work. But a living Ned coming out of hiding may kill the series. I'll be satisfied if Benjen yet lives.