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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)


SFDanny

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SFDanny, we have some agreement! A secret marriage wouldn't ensure Jon and Lyanna's rights, but it would be better than nothing. As you said, you have to be in the game to be able to play.

As to whether a secret marriage most likely took place, I just don't buy it. Firstly, there is just no evidence that Rhaegar planned for the possiblity of his death. None of us think he was stupid, and we would like to think he did plan for all outcomes, but there is just no evidence that he did. All we have is our belief that he wasn't stupid, which is based on nothing. In fact, there is more evidence to support the case that he WAS stupid :).

Anyway, one of the reasons I don't think he considered the possibility that he may die, is that if he did, there are a number of things he could have done that would be much better than leaving Lyanna at the TOJ with three KG.

Sending her to Dragonstone, for example, would have been a much better idea. That way, if he died, Lyanna and Jon could flee with Rhaella and Viserys. That would also place 3 KG with his mum and brother - another good idea. Leaving Lyanna at the TOJ, marriage or no, did nothing for her in the case of his death.

Sending her to Benjen at Winterfell would also have been a good idea.

Or to the seat of House Connington or Starfall.

Or getting Varys to stash her away somewhere in KL.

In summary, if he considered that he may die or lose at the Trident, he wouldn't have left her at the TOJ. Therefore he can't have considered that he may lose or die.

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If the circumstances of being Rhaegar’s second wife imposed conditions on her she found dishonorable, I don’t doubt she would refuse them. As I’ve said we just don’t know that to be the case.

Exactly! And we don't know it to not be the case, either. So it seems we actually agree then, and it is just that my interpretations of your arguments have been wrong. Apologies, apologies!

Just to make sure, do you agree, based on her comment about Robert alone, that Lyanna could have been happy with the polygamous marriage conditions and married Rhaegar OR she could have been unhappy with the polygamous marriage conditions and not married Rhaegar? That it could have gone either way, based on her comment about Robert?

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Exactly! And we don't know it to not be the case, either. So it seems we actually agree then, and it is just that my interpretations of your arguments have been wrong. Apologies, apologies!

Just to make sure, do you agree, based on her comment about Robert alone, that Lyanna could have been happy with the polygamous marriage conditions and married Rhaegar OR she could have been unhappy with the polygamous marriage conditions and not married Rhaegar? That it could have gone either way, based on her comment about Robert?

I believe it could have gone either way depending on what the marriage ground rules were.

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I think a polygamous marriage with a faithful husband could easily be viewed as preferable to a normal marriage with an incorrigible philanderer like Robert.

For one thing, he would be staying in the marriage bed so you'd know where he was. He wouldn't be bringing home all manner of venereal diseases. And since it would all be part of the overall marriage agreement, he wouldn't be violating your trust or deceiving you.

As far as Lyanna's preferences, it may have come down to viewing Rhaegar's character as better than Robert's as much as the structure of the marriage itself.

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SFDanny, we have some agreement! A secret marriage wouldn't ensure Jon and Lyanna's rights, but it would be better than nothing. As you said, you have to be in the game to be able to play.

As to whether a secret marriage most likely took place, I just don't buy it. Firstly, there is just no evidence that Rhaegar planned for the possiblity of his death. None of us think he was stupid, and we would like to think he did plan for all outcomes, but there is just no evidence that he did. All we have is our belief that he wasn't stupid, which is based on nothing. In fact, there is more evidence to support the case that he WAS stupid :).

Anyway, one of the reasons I don't think he considered the possibility that he may die, is that if he did, there are a number of things he could have done that would be much better than leaving Lyanna at the TOJ with three KG.

Sending her to Dragonstone, for example, would have been a much better idea. That way, if he died, Lyanna and Jon could flee with Rhaella and Viserys. That would also place 3 KG with his mum and brother - another good idea. Leaving Lyanna at the TOJ, marriage or no, did nothing for her in the case of his death.

Sending her to Benjen at Winterfell would also have been a good idea.

Or to the seat of House Connington or Starfall.

Or getting Varys to stash her away somewhere in KL.

In summary, if he considered that he may die or lose at the Trident, he wouldn't have left her at the TOJ. Therefore he can't have considered that he may lose or die.

We have a story in the text, I can't remember off the top of my head where, that shows Rhaegar as a highly intelligent man who can master anything he sets his mind to. IIRC, it is where he is described as deciding to not just concentrate on his books and music, but takes up learning the ways of war. For what it is worth, I think it demonstrates he is not stupid. I think we can both agree he is sometimes mistaken in his choices, wrong in his conclusions, and certainly unlucky, but not stupid. I can look up the reference if you don't recall it.

With your proposed alternatives to the TOJ let me raise these concerns:

Dragonstone - while this looks good with hindsight it suffers from the "all of your eggs in one basket" problem that Maester Luwin tries to avoid. Spreading out the location of the heirs gives a better chance that at least one will survive.

Winterfell - this is turning Lyanna and child over to the enemy as far as the Kingsguard is concerned. At best it gives the rebels Rhaegar's child as a hostage. At worst it puts him within Robert's grasp and the possible same fate as Aegon and Rheanys. That young Benjen would not likely hurt his sister or his nephew doesn't change this reality.

House Connington - isn't this in the Storm Lands? That's Robert's territory and Lord Jon is also a known sympathizer. It has the disadvantage of both being a place the rebels would look if they won and being a place that early in the war and after the end of the siege at Storm's End was accessible to the rebels.

Starfall - not a bad location and it turns out it would have been better. Being a port they could have escaped much easier and they would have had access to more troops to support them. The only drawback I see is that it places a burden on Ashara and puts her in the line of fire. She well may have accepted such risks, but I'd question if either Rhaegar or Ser Arthur would ask her.

Varys - Do we know that any of these people trust Varys with their most important secrets? It would be handing over not only Rhaegar's heir but also a tremendous amount of power to the Master of Whisperers, if he chooses to use it.

Tower of Joy - What we know of it makes it seem that this is a hidden location known only to those Rhaegar trusted the most. So it has something that none of the other locations has going for it - secrecy. Admittedly, that's not much when we, again with the benefit of hindsight, know that Ned is going to find out its location. If we look at it without the benefit of that hindsight it isn't such a bad choice.

edit: here's the quote about Rhaegar. It's from Ser Barristan while he is still known as Arstan Whitebeard.

Dany turned back to the squire. "I know little of Rhaegar. Only the tales Viserys told, and he was a little boy when our brother died. What was he truly like?"

The old man considered a moment. "Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded. There is a tale told of him ... but doubtless Ser Jorah knows it as well."

"I would hear it from you."

"As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

"And he was!" said Dany, delighted.

"He was indeed." Whitebeard bowed.... (ASOS 91 US Hardback)

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In my opinion, the discussion of Jon's parentage on these boards, has gone so far into realms of speculation, that it no longer has any value. The imputations of motives and speculations about the behaviour of characters who never appear on stage in the books has gone into ridiculous and insupportable detail.

Perhaps it would be best to limit it to actual evidence from the books.

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kevan has tommen sign a paper legitimizing ramsay as part of the bargain with roose, i think its in a jaime or cersie pov in affc, when they mention that tommens favorite part of kingship is stamping the seal on the letters

Ah, I see. Thanks, I had forgotten that detail. I guess Rhaegar couldn't have legitimized Jon when he was alive then. Unless the crown prince can, but there is no evidence of that as far as I know.

But the dissaproval will be less if the marriage is just forced on them?! They'd approve if Rhaegar just announced his second marriage?! Houses Stark and Baratheon may be pretty much wiped out by then, but how is House Lannister going to react do you think? After the insult they suffered when Rhaegar rejected Cersei, but then he goes and takes two other wives? And what about Tully and Arryn, who have suffered great losses from Rhaegar's foolishness. What about Martell and all the houses of Dorne?

Well, then we'd have to consider the motivations for all this. If it's to fulfill a prophecy, perhaps it's more important that the child be trueborn than all the rest of the issues. Perhaps Rhaegar even expected to die, for all we know. Of course, there's no evidence no matter where we look.

Yeah, it isn't an ideal situation, but in that case he could just legitimize Jon.

Based on available evidence, he can't - only the king can.

Well, if both scenarios involve them hoping they can sort it out later, why is the secret marriage the better one? Don't tell me it ensured Jon's rights, because it didn't. Jon is deprived of his rights and would have been dead if it weren't for Ned. If Aerys still lived, Lyanna and Jon would both be dead. The only time they wouldn't be dead is if Rhaegar lived. In which case a public wedding after the war would be the better option.

Yes, exactly. That would fit much better with GRRM's writing than Jon being true heir to the throne.

Maybe because the child *had* to be trueborn to fulfill the prophecy Rhaegar had in mind. Who knows. This is all speculation, but I think the prophecy theory has merit, based on Dany's visions, and Rhaegar's book worm attitude who suddenly found it important to become a warrior. He had something in mind all right, but the details are just too fuzzy. :D

In my opinion, the discussion of Jon's parentage on these boards, has gone so far into realms of speculation, that it no longer has any value. The imputations of motives and speculations about the behaviour of characters who never appear on stage in the books has gone into ridiculous and insupportable detail.

Perhaps it would be best to limit it to actual evidence from the books.

Agreed, 100%. The whole thing about "Would Lyanna be okay with this or that" and "is Rhaegar smart, or smart enough to do this or that" is ridiculous. We know way too little to even consider having an opinion on that.

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In my opinion, the discussion of Jon's parentage on these boards, has gone so far into realms of speculation, that it no longer has any value. The imputations of motives and speculations about the behaviour of characters who never appear on stage in the books has gone into ridiculous and insupportable detail.

Perhaps it would be best to limit it to actual evidence from the books.

Agreed, 100%. The whole thing about "Would Lyanna be okay with this or that" and "is Rhaegar smart, or smart enough to do this or that" is ridiculous. We know way too little to even consider having an opinion on that.

There is actually quite a bit about both Rhaegar and Lyanna's character in this series. We have the thoughts of Ned, Robert, Ser Barristan, Jaime, Cersei, and others that give us their takes on the two. It is reasonable to argue that the conclusions Sarella or I draw are wrong, but then one would expect either of the two of you to explain why the quoted text is not relevant or the inferences drawn from them are illogical. Off hand dismissal of an argument isn't very persuasive in my book.

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There is actually quite a bit about both Rhaegar and Lyanna's character in this series. We have the thoughts of Ned, Robert, Ser Barristan, Jaime, Cersei, and others that give us their takes on the two. It is reasonable to argue that the conclusions Sarella or I draw are wrong, but then one would expect either of the two of you to explain why the quoted text is not relevant or the inferences drawn from them are illogical. Off hand dismissal of an argument isn't very persuasive in my book.

It's all hearsay from people with agendas who did/could not know the truth of the situation or dreams, metaphoric third hand stories etc. and a lot of it is conflicting i.e. in regard to Rhaegar. I'm not saying that this stuff is not important but it's far to vague and unreliable to bear the weight of the ridiculously long posts here on, for example, would Lyanna tolerate a polygamous marriage or not. If you consider what we have in the text this discussion is ludicrous.

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It's all hearsay from people with agendas who did/could not know the truth of the situation or dreams, metaphoric third hand stories etc. and a lot of it is conflicting i.e. in regard to Rhaegar. I'm not saying that this stuff is not important but it's far to vague and unreliable to bear the weight of the ridiculously long posts here on, for example, would Lyanna tolerate a polygamous marriage or not. If you consider what we have in the text this discussion is ludicrous.

Actually, with the point you raise, Lyanna's tolerance of a polygamous marriage, I agree with you there is not enough in the text to base a judgement. I've made that point more than a few times. After a while I believe Sarella agrees with that as well. She, of course, is more than capable of speaking for herself. My point is rather than be dismissive it would be helpful to read the posts and criticize with some specificity. And, yes, it is all hearsay, but that doesn't mean that we don't have some pretty damn convincing hearsay evidence about Lyanna, Rheagar, and their actions. This is not a court of law after all, is it?

Personally, I'd be more interested in your reaction to my point that the kind of people we are lead to believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were (given the earlier quoted statements) would support the direct evidence for a marriage (presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, etc.) between the two of them. If so, why; if not, why not?

edit: change "heresay" to "hearsay"

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In my opinion, the discussion of Jon's parentage on these boards, has gone so far into realms of speculation, that it no longer has any value.

But speculation by itself is fun and provides much entertainment. Nevertheless, there is one thing more fun than speculating, which is pointing out the holes in mediocre speculation :cheers: *returns to reading thread*

Artanaro

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Look, I agree that towards the end our arguments have become further and further removed from solid textual evidence. That is because we've covered the more central issues over and over again and haven't found agreement. We are therefore resorting to other issues in the hope that they may shed some new light on the debate, but mainly, as Artanaro said, in the interest of entertainment.

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The best part of R+L=J threads is if you threadjack, it's always fine. So, who wants to bite, but wait, I'm getting ahead of myself.

So Dany is the child of fire. Jon, according to R+L=J, is the child of ice and fire. Now, symmetry requires there is a child of ice as well. The dragon has three heads. Three is one of Martin's favorite numbers. Do we have any candidates?

Artanaro

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The best part of R+L=J threads is if you threadjack, it's always fine. So, who wants to bite, but wait, I'm getting ahead of myself.

So Dany is the child of fire. Jon, according to R+L=J, is the child of ice and fire. Now, symmetry requires there is a child of ice as well. The dragon has three heads. Three is one of Martin's favorite numbers. Do we have any candidates?

Artanaro

Too many possibilities, but I've always been a fan of the "winged wolf" - Bran a child of Ice. He has the advantage of being one the the few people we know might be able to "warg" with the dragons. Nice threadjack, Artanaro. Now can we get this thread back on topic?

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Too many possibilities, but I've always been a fan of the "winged wolf" - Bran a child of Ice.

Except for one problem, it fails the symmetry requirement in a different regard. There's more than just being of ice needed for the three dragons to work symmetrically. Dany and Jon are born in the same epoch, so the child of ice should meet this requirement as well. Bran is too far removed to be a candidate, unless there's no symmetry involved, and then it becomes poor writing. If it doesn't fit nicely, it doesn't fit.

Nice threadjack, Artanaro. Now can we get this thread back on topic?

Thank you, but there's a subtle point I'm trying to make about R+L=J. So, you have to do a better job to negate my threadjack. Good try though. :)

Artanaro

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It's all hearsay from people with agendas who did/could not know the truth of the situation or dreams, metaphoric third hand stories etc. and a lot of it is conflicting i.e. in regard to Rhaegar. I'm not saying that this stuff is not important but it's far to vague and unreliable to bear the weight of the ridiculously long posts here on, for example, would Lyanna tolerate a polygamous marriage or not. If you consider what we have in the text this discussion is ludicrous.

GRRM toils away, burning the midnight oil to produce another masterpiece for the readership. We, the readership, carry on our speculations and debates to keep interest alive in this epic series. Each player has his/her role to play. Discussion about what went before or offstage or will come to pass is for intellectual enlightenment, fun and balderdash, and shoveling B.S. Its all fun.Cheers!!! :cheers:

"There's one thing that can be said for glory......You can take glory with you when its your time to go."

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Except for one problem, it fails the symmetry requirement in a different regard. There's more than just being of ice needed for the three dragons to work symmetrically. Dany and Jon are born in the same epoch, so the child of ice should meet this requirement as well. Bran is too far removed to be a candidate, unless there's no symmetry involved, and then it becomes poor writing. If it doesn't fit nicely, it doesn't fit.

Thank you, but there's a subtle point I'm trying to make about R+L=J. So, you have to do a better job to negate my threadjack. Good try though. :)

Artanaro

I'm not a big fan of trying to fit Martin in to a preconceived idea of what symmetry means for the series. I've given you my answer, I'm not likely to change that to fit your needs. So if you have a point, subtle or not, I'd ask you make it, and not try to quiz me to come up with the answer you want.

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