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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)


SFDanny

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Yes, and I would also add that I think Rhaegar was confident he would have the support of many Lords if he needed to depose his father.

Actually, I would not be too surprised to learn that some lords approached Rhaegar and asked him if he would overthrow his father and save the realm, as Aerys sank deeper into his madness.

And so, when she told "Promise me, Ned," I think she wanted her child (assuming R+L=J) protected not only from Robert Baratheon, but the future that a Targayen child would have to face. What I mean by this is: let's assume that Rhaegar still died at the Trident, but the Lannisters helped the Taragyens. So, Rhaegar's dead, but the Taragyen's won. It is my belief that Lyanna would have told whomever came for her in the ToJ that Jon wasn't Rhaegar's. Therefore, protecting her child from the Taragyen's as well. Either way, any child of hers would be effectively removed from the game of power being played, and hidden by a false name.

I think that is why she had Ned promise to protect and hide Jon from the rest of the world if R+L=J. She knew that Rhaegar's son would be in great danger either from an enemy of the Targarens or one of their allies who would want to use Jon to rally support for a rebellion against Robert. I also believe the Ned knew that Robert would want to destroy any living vestige of Rhaegar and that would force Ned to choose between Lyanna's child and his best friend and king. Ned would choose Jon and might had too fight the rest of the realm to protect him Thats also why I think he was ok with Jon joining the NW because he thought that Jon would be safe from all of the court intrigue at thew Wall. He did not want to bring Jon to Kings Landding.

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gold storm, I agree with your post. I doubt that Lyanna wanted her baby caught up in the plans that might circulate around the "third head of the dragon." I think it's quite possible that in the beginning she bought into the need for the "third head," but later events--including, emphatically, Rhaegar's death as well as any plotting that may have been going on between him and some lords--might have made her more aware of the potential danger.

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I think Ned knew he has to protect Jon from not just Robert but also people that would try to use Jon to raise a loyalist rebellion. Lyanna might have thought that Jon was the third head of the dragon or might have doubted Rhaegar and his prophecy after Robert killed him. She just wanted Jon to be safe, and Ned promised that he would keep him safe, so Ned locked himself away in the far North and stayed out of everything having to do with the rest of the realm till he was forced to. He might have been afraid that somebody would see Jon and make an connection to Rhaegar.

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Since reading the books I have always had two theories about Jon's parentage. The first being that Lyanna wasn't actually raped and that he was the product of Rhaeger and Lyanna's love. The main reason I discounted this theory was because it was too obvious for GRRM.

My other theory was that Jon was the product of Ned and Lyanna's love. To make an even greater twist I thought maybe it was possible that Ned had actually raped Lyanna himself, thus explaining his extreme sorrow and guilt about Jon. Hopefully one of you (R+L=J) experts could explain to me why I'm such a dumb fool and (N+L=J) isn't possible.

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Bran the Builder:

1) Ned is horrified by the Lannister incest, but in his thoughts about it (or his conversation with Cersei) there's never any sense of "Well, there was that one time . . . ."

2) I find it hard to imagine Ned raping anyone, let alone his sister. If he did, where was she going when she left the North, and why? Her father and older brother were still alive; she could have told them and asked for protection or vengeance. Why would she go elsewhere looking for it? If she was a) the Knight of the Laughing Tree (unproven, I know) and B) like Arya, she would surely have tried to sort Ned out herself. And she doesn't seem to have told anyone Ned raped her, since no one ever confronts him with it.

3) Rhaegar passed his own wife by in order to give Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty (a crown of blue roses) at Harrenhal; Ned remembers this moment as the time "when all smiles died," indicating that, at the very least, those present were shocked at this unusual expression of favor from the Crown Prince to a woman not his wife. And Harrenhal is where Ned and Ashara developed an interest in each other--an interest Catelyn and Cersei take seriously enough to think that Ashara might be Jon's mother. Edric Dayne tells Arya about their relationship (which he has heard about from others; he's too young to have witnessed it).

4) In Ned's memory of Lyanna's death, she smiles and relaxes "when he gave her his word" and "gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black" (American paperback GoT pp. 43-4, Ned PoV). Either Ned originated the Goth movement by bringing his sister dead roses or she's still holding on to what's left of the crown Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal. We don't hear of anyone else seeing her between her disappearance and the time she died.

5) It is certainly Dany's understanding--probably from Viserys--that Rhaegar and Lyanna wound up together. She thinks about her brother "dying for the woman he loved" and believes Elia wasn't a good wife to him because he took another woman. Jaime also thinks R+L is the reason for the war--he says “Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face” (SoS pp. 418-20, US paperback). Dorne was also upset at what was perceived there as the insult to Elia Martell Targaryen in Rhaegar's taking another woman.

6) While we don't find anyone other than Robert talking about Rhaegar as a rapist (aside from Bran, who wasn't born when any of it happened), it does seem to be the general consensus that Rhaegar and Lyanna were involved and that this provoked the war. If Ned raped Lyanna, how was Rhaegar involved?

7) This is certainly what Brandon Stark believed, since he went to King's Landing and called on Rhaegar to come out and die.

8) IF Lyanna gave birth shortly before Ned found her after the end of the war, her child must have been conceived after the war started. Catelyn and Ned got married a month or two after the war (which lasted about a year) started and Robb was conceived on their wedding night. Catelyn believes that Robb is older than Jon; if that's true, Jon had to be conceived after Cat and Ned married. If Lyanna had a child after the war ended, it certainly wasn't conceived before the war started (again, IF Lyanna gave birth shortly before Ned found her). Ned was one of Robert's generals; I don't think he and Lyanna were together during the time that that child would have been conceived.

9) As far as I know, none of Lyanna's family saw her between the time she vanished from the North and the time Ned found her after the war ended. Certainly Ned's memories of his final interview with Lyanna don't include her accusing him of anything; she asked him to make her some promises, which indicates that she trusted him. Ned remembers that she held onto life until he made those promises to her--whatever they were. If Ned raped her, what promises do you think she required of him as she was dying?

10) In the series "present day," Wylla is claiming to be Jon's mother (as Edric Dayne tells Arya). This is either true, in which case I can't understand why Ned won't tell everyone who Jon's mother is, or it's false, in which case Wylla is either a pathological liar whose stories are supported by the Daynes or it's a cover story to hide the identity of Jon's mother. Since Ned apparently told Robert shortly after the war ended that Wylla was Jon's mother, she's not the only one telling this story. Sounds like a cover story to me--one that Ned has already used.

11) If Ned had raped Lyanna, I think he'd feel guilt about HER rather than about Jon.

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Hi everyone. i'm new to the boards, and i haven't read the entire L+R=J thread, so if this has been mention before i apologize in advance.

I was wondering if GRRM was creating a symbolic connection between Bloodraven and Jon Snow.

1.) If L+R=J is true and Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna then both Jon and Bloodraven would be base-born Targaryens.

2.) Bloodraven's symbol was a white dragon with red eyes, and Jon's direwolf is a white wolf with red eyes.

3.) Both were members of the Night Watch, and both served as Lord Commander.

4.) If Rob's letter is about Jon, then both would be base-born Targs that were legitimized by a king.

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Hi everyone. i'm new to the boards, and i haven't read the entire L+R=J thread, so if this has been mention before i apologize in advance.

I was wondering if GRRM was creating a symbolic connection between Bloodraven and Jon Snow.

1.) If L+R=J is true and Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna then both Jon and Bloodraven would be base-born Targaryens.

2.) Bloodraven's symbol was a white dragon with red eyes, and Jon's direwolf is a white wolf with red eyes.

3.) Both were members of the Night Watch, and both served as Lord Commander.

4.) If Rob's letter is about Jon, then both would be base-born Targs that were legitimized by a king.

Wow! Great pick-ups!

I had made the connection between Jon and Bloodraven in terms of them both being products of a union between House Targaryen and a northern House. My thinking was that it could, in certain instances, be a pretty "powerful" or mystical combination but I hadn't put all the observations you list above together in one thought before. After seeing your post, I do believe there is a strong parallel between the two characters!

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Going off this, I wonder if Jon will find any writings by Bloodraven about being on the Wall or his dealings as Hand or during the war, or some secret about the Targs.

First off, thanks Dragon Kingme for bringing up some really excellent points that I haven't encountered before.

gold storm, you bring up an interesting point.

Not really R+L=J related, but if Bloodraven had knowledge of the Targaryen AA/PwwP-War for the Dawn theories that possibly inspired the Summerhall incident with Maester Aemon's brother Egg it would be interesting to see what he might have written about it at the Wall. And how that might influence Jon. We don't know what Jon thinks right now about the Mel-Stannis partnership and AAR/PwwP with regards to winning what is looking to be a war vs. the Others. It would certainly be interesting if he is influenced by Bloodraven (anyone really, but a former LC makes a good candidate) in someway regarding that point. Would he give royal blood to Mel if he came to believe that it actually was necessary to raise dragons? Sam will have some knowledge to give to Jon regarding those points certainly, but timeline-wise a good chunk of ADwD is happening during AFfC, and Sam only reaches Oldtown at the end. Interesting things to think about.

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First off, thanks Dragon Kingme for bringing up some really excellent points that I haven't encountered before.

gold storm, you bring up an interesting point.

Not really R+L=J related, but if Bloodraven had knowledge of the Targaryen AA/PwwP-War for the Dawn theories that possibly inspired the Summerhall incident with Maester Aemon's brother Egg it would be interesting to see what he might have written about it at the Wall. And how that might influence Jon. We don't know what Jon thinks right now about the Mel-Stannis partnership and AAR/PwwP with regards to winning what is looking to be a war vs. the Others. It would certainly be interesting if he is influenced by Bloodraven (anyone really, but a former LC makes a good candidate) in someway regarding that point. Would he give royal blood to Mel if he came to believe that it actually was necessary to raise dragons? Sam will have some knowledge to give to Jon regarding those points certainly, but timeline-wise a good chunk of ADwD is happening during AFfC, and Sam only reaches Oldtown at the end. Interesting things to think about.

I was kinda thinking that Jon could read some of what Bloodraven wrote about being a Targaryen, maybe a lot of them have power dreams like Jon has or other stuff thats happening to Jon. Jon might see some similarities between himself and Brynden both bastards, legitimized by a king, and LC of the Nights Watch. He could write about the Others and what happed at Summerhall and the prophecy about three heads of the dragon. This could lead to Jon asking some questions about his place and is he part of this.

Oh ya Dragon Kingme great find about Bloodraven and Jon.

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Shewoman, thank you for the response. I think the being away from the North for such a long time is probably the strongest evidence against Ned and Lyanna. Ned fighting a war is also good evidence. However most supporters of the the (R+L=J) theory seem to think that because there is evidence suggesting a love between Rhaeger and Lyanna, then other paternal possibilities besides the Prince are ruled out. I strongly believe there was a love between the two. However Lyanna could have created Jon with another Father.

It just seems that most readers find what they want to when analyzing (R+L=J). If they don't want to believe it, then they find subtle things in the books to disprove it, while supporters will uncover things to prove it. I think we could reread the books with a more open mind. I'm still not convinced.

I honestly don't care either way, but would prefer to be suprised.

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I just finished the books, so I am back here...

I think Jon indeed is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son

a)It fits the important promise Ned gave his sister, that he will raise her son safely like one of his own. For a man like him to pretend he dishonored his wife even once would be a great sacrifice.

B) It creates interesting possibilities for the future, when Daenerys arrives in Westeros. I don't expect Jon to stay on the Wall forever, it's possible there won't be a Wall after the War for Dawn and Targaryens are notorious for marrying in the family, brother or nephew doesn't matter.

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VorianGB--R+L=J supporters (like me) tend to think that one of the promises Ned made to Lyanna was to raise her child in the north and keep his identity unknown. The fact that he refuses to tell even Jon who his mother was tends to lead to that conclusion. But the text doesn't actually tell us what any of those promises were.

Even if Jon has Targaryen blood in him, he was raised by Ned Stark. I don't think he'd knowingly enter an incestuous marriage. Dany was raised to think such a marriage normal; he wasn't.

Even if the Wall is gone, as long as the Night's Watch lasts Jon is bound by his vows as long as he lives unless someone releases him from them.

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