The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)

[Shewoman]

It's not just the abduction--or whatever it was; how many people know about Aerys' execution of Brandon, Rickard, and their men? That would be harder to hide because it involved so many more people (and, consequently, their families). I don't think I've heard anyone but Jaime explicitly talk about it. Ned mentions dourly at one point that Starks don't fare well when they head south, and we know he erected a statue to his brother in the Wintercrypt. Have we heard a hint about all those murders from anyone else?

True, ccoa. But other than that he's not overflowing with helpful info here.

I do think it's likely that the Tullys knew about Aerys' executions (and, probably, the story about Lyanna's abduction): Brandon was almost their son-in-law. Besides . . . Catelyn is going to marry Brandon, she's going to marry Brandon, she's . . . marrying Ned, and Lysa is marrying Jon Arryn to seal an alliance of some sort and all the men are then riding out against the Targaryens. I think the family in Riverrun must have known the truth, at least about Brandon's death and the reason for it.

[Sarella]

Bran also mentions that Aerys strangled Brandon in an early chapter when he's in the crypts.

Everyone must know that Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon. Surely this is why he is called Mad King Aerys?! And every House involved in the war must know of the Stark's murders, Lyanna's abduction, or both. Surely they did not join the war unaware of one or both of the reasons for the war?!

[Guest Other-in-law]

Bran also mentions that Aerys strangled Brandon in an early chapter when he's in the crypts.

Everyone must know that Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon.

However, at that point Bran also states that Lord Rickard was beheaded (not roasted by wildfire), much like Cat guesses when Jaime asks her about her father-in-law's fate:

"Killed, yes, but how?"

"The cord or the axe, I suppose."

The bare outline of events is widely known, but the details are not.

[ccoa]

No one really talks about Lyanna and Rhaegar save for a few people who were immediately involved or learned about it from people immediately involved. It's reasonable to assume that people know about Brandon and Rickon's death, but we don't have any evidence that anyone save those immediately involved know the specifics of what happened, including whatever happened with Lyanna.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Dany was not immediately involved with the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation; nor was Viserys, from whom she learned of it. Of course neither of them knew any of the specifics, but they had the bare outline.

[ccoa]

They would fall under the category of those who learned it from those immediately involved. Also, since the abduction (or whatever) and the deaths of the Starks happened before their flight to Dragonstone, it's entirely possible that Viserys falls under those immediately involved. Eight year olds are smarter and more observant than a lot of people think.

So I still don't see a reason to assume it's common knowledge.

[Ealasaid]

So I still don't see a reason to assume it's common knowledge.

When Dany is aboard ship she inserts her knowledge that Rhaeger crowned Lynanna Queen at the Harrrenhal Tourney. And that later "he stole her away." When Meera is telling the story of the unknown crannogman knight whom Lyanna defends from bullies at Harrenhal, Brandon knows that Rhaeger crowned his sister.

I think Barristan the Bold may know something, too.

As for Tyrion's marriage being bantered about, I was wrong. Most of it is Tyrion beating himself up about it. Cersei mentions it once :"You shamed us with that sorry episode.." acok 400

Tywin rages at Tyrion when Tyrion asks for Casterly Rock, that Tyrion shall not "turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse...I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?" sos 53

And Little FInger lies to Sansa "he had a wife before you, did you know that?"

Sansa: "He told me."

LF: "And did he tell you that when he grew bored with her, he made a gift of her to his father's guardsmen?" sos 763

Mea culpa. I suppose since Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead at least 16 to 17 years, it's no longer a scandal.

[Bittersteel+]

Ye, I didn't read the quots above carefully (: But it doesn't change anything in truth.

As for you the quots, I think you should just reread the book a little, for example the conversation in the TCOK between Jaime and Catelyn. What's new in it, and what's supposed to be known.

As for Hoster Tully, it' s what Catelyn recalls of the events. I'm not going to look for the page, sorry.

Once again, Catelyn, Jaime, Robert know... That means Blackfish, Jon Arren and otherrelatives know... Should I expand my logical chain further? My God, Dany knows it trough Viseris though he was a small child and was sent to Dragonstone!

But the main thing I just cannot grasp how it could happen that Rhaegar steals Lyanna, Brandon gets it - and what? Only Brandon??? Is he a child of forest or something? And how did Robert get this knowledge for himself and keep it hidden? Because he got it in a dream? And as I see you prefer the trees to the forest, recall, that one of Brandon's party stayed alive and fought in the rebellion (:

Then, do you think that anybody would fight a rebellion for the sake of the friends of a madman who rides into the Red Keep shouting for the Prince to come out and die? There should something that could aspire people to support a usurper against the rightful king. And that was the fact that Rhaegar spit on a honour of a Great House.

Well, and as have a strange feeling that my simple logic does not convince you (: , well there is a quote from the FAQ of the Citadel (hope you know what it is):

Robert’s Rebellion, also known as the War of the Usurper (SSC), was sparked by the apparent abduction of Lyanna Stark by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen (I: 36, II: 582).

[Bittersteel+]

Mea culpa. I suppose since Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead at least 16 to 17 years, it's no longer a scandal.

I think the same. A very simple explanation why nobody speaks of it... It doesn't concern anybody... It's dead and burried...

[ccoa]

As for Hoster Tully, it' s what Catelyn recalls of the events. I'm not going to look for the page, sorry.

Don't be sorry. However, I'm not re-reading every single Cat chapter to prove your point for you. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Once again, Catelyn, Jaime, Robert know... That means Blackfish, Jon Arren and otherrelatives know... Should I expand my logical chain further? My God, Dany knows it trough Viseris though he was a small child and was sent to Dragonstone!

I believe I already explained why Viserys would know.

Honestly, you keep shouting the same thing over and over as if that proves your point. I already explained why this is a bad sampling.

Also, it is not logical to assume that all relatives of a person who "knows" would know. Ned's children didn't know, after all.

Then, do you think that anybody would fight a rebellion for the sake of the friends of a madman who rides into the Red Keep shouting for the Prince to come out and die? There should something that could aspire people to support a usurper against the rightful king. And that was the fact that Rhaegar spit on a honour of a Great House.

They fought the rebellion because Aerys demanded the heads of Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn refused to surrender them, calling his banners instead. We cannot know if it would have taken place if Aerys had simply left it at two executions.

Well, and as have a strange feeling that my simple logic does not convince you (: , well there is a quote from the FAQ of the Citadel (hope you know what it is):

The FAQ at the Citadel is for readers. It says nothing about what people in Westeros know. That doesn't support your point at all. Yes, the original sparking event was the apparent abduction of Lyanna. But that was hardly the only reason for the rebellion and it doesn't clarify the actual event or what people know of it in the least.

Stepping back from this "debate" for a moment.

We do not know if one single living person knows the whole truth about what happened to Lyanna. Most people are operating on hearsay and rumor, in fact. This is not the sort of news people would be sending out on raven wings, so what the average person in Westeros knows about the events of ~15 years ago is hazy and distorted. They may not know of it at all, there is no evidence to suggest that "everbody" knows it happened.

Of those we can expect to know at least part of the truth, we get conflicting accounts and differing impressions.

What anyone believes about what happened is not really evidence of anything in particular. Brandon may have been mistaken or misled. Or he might have been dead right. We simply can't say. The only person who could clear it up with any certainty is a participant or an eye-witness, both of which seem to be in short supply.

[Guest Other-in-law]

They would fall under the category of those who learned it from those immediately involved.

"Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys refused."

Viserys was not at Harrenhal, so he didn't witness the QoLaB scene, and he wouldn't have witnessed the abduction or anything that happened at the ToJ. Thus his knowledge is second hand at best, and Dany's third hand at best.

Not sure why you're quibbling about the extent that the knowledge has permeated through society, or why you think so few people are aware of the Rhaegar and Lyanna interaction, though. We see from the aFfC prologue that young novices at the Citadel have heard the outline of the sordid parts of the realm's recent history (even if they don't all remember it very well).

[ccoa]

Because Bittersteel here asserted that "everyone" knew. That's a ridiculous declaration, and he can't prove it. I have no idea what he hopes to prove by it, since his posts are fairly rambling, but by starting with something that cannot be proven as an assumption, his point (whatever it is) cannot be proven.

The "abduction" didn't take place at Harrenhall, so I don't know why that's relevent. Those immediately involved would be the royal family, since they would find out, one way or the other, what Rhaegar was up to. Thus, Viserys.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The "abduction" didn't take place at Harrenhall, so I don't know why that's relevent.

Crowning Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty did, though, which is part of what we were talking about, and a specific angle that Dany is aware of that neither she nor Viserys could possibly have witnessed.

Those immediately involved would be the royal family, since they would find out, one way or the other, what Rhaegar was up to. Thus, Viserys.

Your earlier assertion was "No one really talks about Lyanna and Rhaegar save for a few people who were immediately involved or learned about it from people immediately involved." The QoLaB scene occurred before an enormous crowd, at the climax of one of the largest tourney's ever...hardly "a few". And yet Viserys was not immediately involved with the the QoLaB crowning, nor with the abduction, but now you seem to be trying to squeeze him in by virtue of being related to those who were, strangely enough. Whatever.

Bittersteel's claim that virtually everyone knows is no more unreasonable than your apparent claim that virtually nobody knows what the hell the War of the Usurper was fought over. Yes, there are peasants who are utterly uninformed about anything, but there's no real basis for claiming that the broad outline of Robert's Rebellion is a complete mystery to all but a select few.

[ccoa]

I never said almost no one knows about it. I said it seems like its not common knowledge because almost no one speaks about it. On the other hand, you get a lot more information about Brandon/Lord Stark and about Aerys' demand for Robert and Ned's execution.

You're completely misreading what I'm saying.

EDIT: I'm not "squeezing" in Viserys by his relations. He was in King's Landing, with his father, at the time all of this took place. He'd have to have been deaf and blind not to know what was going on, or at least whatever version of what went on that reached KL. However, we have no reason to assume that a correct version of events reached KL, we don't know where Lyanna was "abducted" from, nor do we know if Rhaegar ever returned to KL until the battle of the Trident, and what he might have said to anyone (if anything) while he was there or before, by messenger.

[Daedalus V2.0]

This has spiralled far beyond what is even remotely connected to R+L=J. In the (likely futile) hopes of ending this debate, I'll add a bit.

It seems that among the nobility of Westeros, the entire 'kidnapping' of Lyanna and the events at Harrenhall are very well known: nobody really talks about it, because it would likely have created some trouble with King Robert, who was still rather preoccupied with it at his death. We don't hear a lot about it, and it is rather old news, but it does seem to be well, if not universally known.

Among the smallfolk and peasants, however, it seems that only a few of the older ones would have a chance to know and, realistically, most would not care. The abduction was small news to the smallfolk, scandalous but nothing more. Likely those few that have a real grasp of even such recent history would hardly care about such a detail, crucial as it was, compared to the far more outrageous actions taken later. Lyanna going with Rhaegar was the Westerosi equivalent of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand: a spark in a proverbial powder keg, only an accelerant of a problem which went far out of proportion. This being medieval society, likely only a small percentage would know, and those would be mostly the oldest among them.

So, in terms of a survey of the total population, very few would know about the event, as the larger demographic would be largely unconcerned with it. In comparison, the nobility who make up most of the characters in the novels, would largely have knowledge of the event.

[Bittersteel+]

to ccoa

Well, maybe I should make some implicit thought of me more explicit. Saying that everybody knows about L and R, I meant "everybody of the main characters of the book", who mostly the nobility who took part at the events which followed the "apparent" abduction of Lyanna. It seems rather rediculous for me that my thought could be interpreted in the way that every one peasant in Westeros had the entire inforamtion about what happened...

One more thing If you read my former posts then you should know that I'm not convinced it was an abduction, and I do not say even the nobility know what really happened, they know as much as they were allowed to know. I only said that the characters believe to know some things about it, that could be described as followed: "Rhaegar got in love with Lyanna and abducted her, that's why the whole thing started..." No more, but that much they believe to know for certain. And as for the FAQ - it's certainly for the reader, but it gives you only the information, you're getting from the books (seldom some interviews and so on). The quote about Lyanna was supported with some quotes from the book I think.

Well, I do not think that the whole thing requires some more discussing... There some more posts (other-in-law, deadalus) made, which explain the matter in an easy and comprehensive way.

[ccoa]

That's not even true, the Stark children don't seem to know about it and they're some of the most important characters in the books. You should be careful about absolutes.

I think Daedulus summed it up nicely, but I have one other thing to add. Of those who "know," there is no guarantee that any of them know all or even some of the truth. Think back to when you played the telephone game as a child - rumors become grossly distorted the more people they pass through. The only people who would know the true and entire story are Lyanna and Rhaegar, anyone who might have been with them from start (Harrenhall) to finish (Tower of Joy), and anyone they gave the full story to.

It isn't so much about what they were "allowed" to know, as what has filtered down to them, probably distorted by rumor.

[SFDanny]

That's not even true, the Stark children don't seem to know about it and they're some of the most important characters in the books. You should be careful about absolutes.

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all." (AGoT 613 US Hardback)

Obviously, Bran knows a version of the events (recounted to Osha in the crypts,) the version Robert tells us about earlier. It is hard to believe only Bran would have heard this story, and the rest of his brothers and sisters remained clueless of any family history, or history of Robert's Rebellion.

[ccoa]

Ah, I apologize. I was thinking of Meera's relating of the events at Harrenhall and how Bran didn't seem to know about any of it. I had forgotten about the talk in the crypts.

[TheSeedisStrongest]

Do you think Cersei noticed Jon because he looked like Rhaegar?

We do know that Cersei has a thing for his look-alikes.

I'm not saying Cersei wanted to have sex with some fourteen year old; only that when she sees someone that looks like Rhaegar her eye is immediately drawn.